ICH help?!?!
- Thread starter nov8tve
- Start date
Satori
Cancer Sucks
As I'm going through this now, I've done a fair bit of reading recently. I set up a separate 37 gallon for hypo salinity treatment.
Unfortunately, you have to treat all fish. Everyone agrees that if one has it, they all have it. The two treatments that work are hypo salinity (1.009 for 6 weeks) or copper. Only do one or the other, but both need to be done in a separate tank as inverts don't tolerate either one.
It may go away but it'll just come back worse.
Here's one article that explains how to do a hypo treatment:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
Unfortunately, you have to treat all fish. Everyone agrees that if one has it, they all have it. The two treatments that work are hypo salinity (1.009 for 6 weeks) or copper. Only do one or the other, but both need to be done in a separate tank as inverts don't tolerate either one.
It may go away but it'll just come back worse.
Here's one article that explains how to do a hypo treatment:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
I saw MSM had it covered so I didn't respond.
However I feel you took a shortcut here that you need to be aware of. First off freshwater ich meds do not work against cryptocarrion irritans or saltwater ich. Its not the type of water the fish is in but the type of parasite. Second while the freshwater dip may have knocked some ich off it probably didn't knock it all off. Many times there are cycts in the gills you cannot see. Hopefully no cysts dropped off in the display or your fish will get re-infected very shortly.
As MSM said the only way to be sure is to set up a hospital tank, treat with either hyposalinity OR copper not both. And you need to treat all fish and leave the display fishless for 6 weeks. The lifecycle of crypt is 28-33 days. Most experts suggest another week just to be safe.
Now you may get lucky as sometimes fish can develop partial immunity after a mild outbreak. But you can't count on it. I'll leave you with this story.
I had my tank set up for about 5 months. I got in a couple mandarins that were supposed to be highly ich resistant. Well they weren't this time. I decided to try some natural methods first like garlic, neon gobies and cleaner shrimp. All these did was cost me 10 days until I decided these were not working. I lost my favorite wrasse. I have not been able to find another with his unique personality. Don't wait like I did and lose your fav fish.
Good luck.
However I feel you took a shortcut here that you need to be aware of. First off freshwater ich meds do not work against cryptocarrion irritans or saltwater ich. Its not the type of water the fish is in but the type of parasite. Second while the freshwater dip may have knocked some ich off it probably didn't knock it all off. Many times there are cycts in the gills you cannot see. Hopefully no cysts dropped off in the display or your fish will get re-infected very shortly.
As MSM said the only way to be sure is to set up a hospital tank, treat with either hyposalinity OR copper not both. And you need to treat all fish and leave the display fishless for 6 weeks. The lifecycle of crypt is 28-33 days. Most experts suggest another week just to be safe.
Now you may get lucky as sometimes fish can develop partial immunity after a mild outbreak. But you can't count on it. I'll leave you with this story.
I had my tank set up for about 5 months. I got in a couple mandarins that were supposed to be highly ich resistant. Well they weren't this time. I decided to try some natural methods first like garlic, neon gobies and cleaner shrimp. All these did was cost me 10 days until I decided these were not working. I lost my favorite wrasse. I have not been able to find another with his unique personality. Don't wait like I did and lose your fav fish.
Good luck.
nov8tve
New member
Good to know...thanks! How can you tell if they have it in their gills? Truthfully I think the cleaner shrimp ate the couple little spots off him after I dipped him. The tang kept pestering the shrimp to clean him, so maybe he did that night.
I'm just going to keep an eye on him and the other fish and cross my fingers. He is eating great and seems really happy, no hard breathing. I really don't want to quarintine all the fish. Plus the tang is my last fish I am buying for this tank.
NaClH20NMYVEIN
Red Dragons!
Just cause its gone now does not mean it is all gone just so you keep an eye out for it. I have had ich with single fish in a tank and all the fish in the tank. I dont do anything. I just make sure my temp is stable and my water perameters are in check and let the fish fight it off. I have had very good results with this method. Ick is caused by stress so if that stress is taken away like water change to improve the conditions or the removal of another fish that is bullying the sick fish then the sick fish can fight off the ick. It is pretty common for a new fish especially a tang to get ick as it is stressed from the move to the new tank. There are may roads to the same destination that is just the one I take. I find catching the sick fish and moving him just stresses them out more. Good Luck!
sir_dudeguy
Active member
what can cause ich? i know its a parasite, but how does it get in your tank? i've never had it on my fish (knock on wood) and i dont really plan on it lol, but to go forever and not have it seems like its not possible...
is it like, water quality that causes it, or what?
thanks
mike
is it like, water quality that causes it, or what?
thanks
mike
NaClH20NMYVEIN
Red Dragons!
as with everything in this hobby it is highly debated but I believe as may do that all fish have it on them in a tank and in the wild. It just takes stress to bring it out.
Satori
Cancer Sucks
Like evolust said, there are a lot of ideas out there about what brings on Ich. With me, a wrasse went into the overflow for a few days before being sucked over the durso and ended up in the sump, skinny, stressed, and a little Ich on his fins. Maybe a day later my Powder Blue Tang (an Ich magnet) had it.
Well let me just say I do not subscribe to the ich is always there theory. Ich is a very well known parasite with a known life cycle. Read what the experts have to say like Steven Pro or ATJ. Ich can be present in low numbers once introduced. You can't always see the cysts. Fish sometimes do fight off the infections and once it is present yes stress can reduce a fish's resistance. But it is a myth to say it is always there.
sir_dudeguy
Active member
diatom filter...is that the uv thing or am i just completely off?
NaClH20NMYVEIN
Red Dragons!
If ick is not always there and its life cycle is max 33 days how is it possible that people have ick show up when they have added nothing to their tank in the way of livestock or water from another tank and so on and ick pops up? I have heard of this many times before as well as had it happen to me. Just a thought
There are many possible reasons for this but I'll address the most likely.
First off many people tend to forget they added a little something. Anything wet can bring ich back into the tank.
Second if you never eradicated ich the first time it can continue its life cycle. Sometimes fish gain partial temporary immunity that seems to have broken the cycle but really hasn't.
But probably the most likely reason is a misdiagnosis. And I feel the most likely candidate is lymphocytis. It is a common virus that IS almost always present and DOES manifest itself during times of stress. And fish are prone to repeat outbreaks. It can look just like ich and be small white dots. They may or may not grow larger. They can clear up quickly in good water conditions or if the stress abates. Neon gobies or cleaner shrimp have been known to eat them. The strains are most likely genus specific so the whole tank usually doesn't get infected. The mortality rate is very low. Taken together lympho sure explains most of what I've read as why people believe ich is always present.
I don't know your particular situation. But ich is probably the most well researched marine parasite due to its impact on the food fish industry. I have the bible on marine fish disease; "Fish disease: Diagnosis and Treatment" by Dr. Edward Noga. He is very clear on the life cycle. If anyone is interested you can stop by and read the particular sections.
edit: I need to credit Skip for getting me thinking about lympho in the first place those many weeks ago.
Cheers,
Phil
NaClH20NMYVEIN
Red Dragons!
Good points
Doglover_50
Premium Member
Read up on the life cycle of the parasite--helps to understand how it works (e.g., can still be circulating in water even if fish is "treated." That raises the whole issue of keeping fish out of your display tank for 30 days to remove ick from tank (until, of course, you add anything wet from any other tank). My clown got it about a month ago, I chose 6 days in copper until it was all gone, then put him back in the tank. The guys at my LFS had suggested copper treatment for 30 days, but I chose otherwise. So far no return, but we'll see! In a way, probably similar process to catching cold or flu--it's all around us all of the time, but the addition of stressors can lower the immune system so we catch them.
Nov8tve - I'm not at all sure your case is lympho. That's why I suggested a quarantine and treatment for all fish.
Doglover - hope all turns out well. Remember the treatments; whether copper, hypo or wonder cure, all are usually only effective aginst the free swimming form. Since it can take several days for all cysts to fall off and and since you only treated for 6 days the display may be just hatching a new round. It can take up to 28 days for any cysts that fell off to hatch into the free swimmers. That's why the suggestion to keep the tank fishless for 30 days and most recommend 42 days.
While lympho does follow the common cold idea ich does not.
Doglover - hope all turns out well. Remember the treatments; whether copper, hypo or wonder cure, all are usually only effective aginst the free swimming form. Since it can take several days for all cysts to fall off and and since you only treated for 6 days the display may be just hatching a new round. It can take up to 28 days for any cysts that fell off to hatch into the free swimmers. That's why the suggestion to keep the tank fishless for 30 days and most recommend 42 days.
While lympho does follow the common cold idea ich does not.
Doglover_50
Premium Member
Philwd, thanks for the thoughts. You are right on--I treated my clown the 6 days about 3 weeks ago, and this is why I have not added any new fish since. I'll probably wait at least another 3 weeks (and even that may be with some risk), and am keeping an eye on the clown in case signs of disease returns. Just to clarify regarding common cold analogy, I was thinking of how a fish catches ich (and not how to treatment or the life cycle of the parasite in the fish, the water, etc...) . Isn't the ich parasite pretty much constantly in the natural aquatic environment for fish (though of course at lower concentrations than in a closed system of an aquarium?) So isn't it a fish's immune system that keeps it from being succeptible to major outbreaks of the parasite, UNLESS its immune system is stressed via: transportation in a plastic bag, bad water quality, temperature changes, stress from poor combination of fish that should not be in the same tank, etc...? I'm not saying its the same type of organism and disease process as a virus, but rather fish under stress = lowered immune functioning = more succeptible to contract illness/attack by parasite.
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