Ich/Hypo/QT Woes, HELP!!!

[elgringodiablo]

So, my 90 gallon RSR 450 has had pretty much every problem you can have. The most devastating of which has been Ich. I've lost 70% of the fish I've added to this tank to Ich.

After hitting my breaking point, I went and got a 40 gallon breeder to setup a quarantine. Equipped it with a Hydor canister filter rated up to 100 gallons, powerheads, heater, fan and ato. Not the prettiest thing in the world, but not bad for a QT setup.

Once I had this filled, I threw some Dr. Tim's in and started catch and transferring my 16 surviving fish: Lawnmower Blenny, Blue Tang, Yellow Tang, Scopas Tang, Marble Wrasse, Cleaner Wrasse (x2), Clarkii Clown (x3), Juv Koran Angel, Pajama Cardinal (x5). Catching them took about 3 days and everyone made it in okay. My LFS gave me a Powder Blue Tang, which I added after the rest were in, separated in his own box inside the QT.

DT is fish less for 72, starting hypo. Testing SG and PH twice a day, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate daily. Brought the salinity from 1.025 to 1.009 over 3 day. Everything looks good. Fish are eating and happy.

Doing 5 gallon water changes daily, dosing Seachem Prime to deal with Ammonia and Seachem Stability to try to create biofiltration. Maybe this was my fatal error. Also using Seachem Marine Buffer to maintain PH.

Went one week with everything looking good. Last night I noticed the PBT on his side and Koran Angel breathing heavy. Did an extra 5 gallon WC and added a couple caps of Prime.

Ammonia was testing at 0.8, but Seachem badge was yellow. Had read that testing would be off using Prime, that test would recognize ammonium as ammonia. So I basically wrote it off.

This morning my 4 tangs and angel were dead. Did a 50% WC added more Prime and Stability. Over the course of the day my clowns, blenny and cleaner wrasses died. Fish swimming upside down, breathing at the surface, laying on their sides. I can only assume it's ammonia poisoning, which I thought Prime would prevent.

A few questions:

- Should Prime work in this scenario or did I put my stock in the wrong product? As far as I know Bio Spira and Dr Tim's don't work in hypo saline environments.

- Since I plan to keep this QT going for any future piscine additions, can you actually cycle a hypo tank or do I need to keep an insane WC schedule (50% every other day). Once it does cycle, will my cycle be reset by salinity reduction?

- Since prophylactic treatment seems so risky (copper, hypo, CP all seem to have ways to kill your fish), how long do I need to quarantine to safely insure that I don't reinfect my DT? Obviously I will treat if symptoms arise.

- Is Seachem Marine Buffer a bad choice for PH control? Should I setup a Kalk dripper or similar dripper with Soda Ash instead?

I really want to get this right before peta shows up at my house for all the fish I've killed. My nano upstairs has 5 happy, healthy fish, with no cases of Ich, so I know it's possible and not just personal ineptitude.

I really appreciate any advice or constructive criticism you guys can offer.


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[dweber618]

First - did you put 16 fish in a 40B, and 4 of them were tangs? That's some SERIOUSLY cramped quarters, and a lot of fish for a 90 gallon tank. That's causing the majority of your problems IMO.

I don't see anyone who tries to use PH buffer in their QT tank, and that's in addition to Dr. Tim's and prime. I wouldn't do anything with PH and or Kalk. With that many fish, and that much waste, your going to be doing a ton of water changes.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if lack of oxygen is part of the problem with that many fish.

I really think you should get one or two more tanks and spread your fish out. If you don't, you should do more than just 5 gallon water changes in the 40B.

Look into TTM as the ich cure, and maybe doing a profilactic prazipro treatment since everyone is already in QT. Prazipro reduces oxygen, so you'll need good oxygenatuon especially with that many fish.

 

[dweber618]

I just reread your post, sounds like your only down to the 5 cardinals. IMO, don't get anymore fish until the ones you have are healthy and back in your DT when fallow period is done.

Id get a couple 10 gallon tanks from petco (it's $1/gallon right now) and DO TTM with the remaining fish. While going through TTM, keep the 40B going to use as observation after TTM is done. I'd empty it, let it completely dry, and start over with just Dr. Tim's to give it some time to establish.

 

[elgringodiablo]

Thanks for the feedback. Not going to do the TTM, too much water and too many tanks. My wife doesn't want me to turn the living room into the LFS, unless I start making us money off it. I agree 16 fish is a lot of a 40, but as a temporary hospital tank?? Most of these were small fish, even the tangs.

I would agree with the DO assumption if it were a progressive situation, but this was a rapid sudden die off.

As far as the buffer goes, Prime, Stability and Dr Tim's don't do anything to the PH, which drops with the low salinity. Hypo saline water is supposed to have higher oxygen content. DO is definitely a concern when bringing the salinity back up, but not likely the issue at 1.009.

While the idea of spreading them out is totally sound, it's still a f-ton of water changes, just split between two or more tanks, plus hundreds of dollars more in equipment.

At this point I only have 6 small fish left in QT, so the focus is saving them, insuring I eliminate Ich and getting the tank running well for future batches of quarantine of 3-5 fish at a time.


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[Bruce51]

even a 90 gallon tank is to small for the tangs
ttm and fallow period is the best way to defeat ich

 

[elgringodiablo]

even a 90 gallon tank is to small for the tangs
ttm and fallow period is the best way to defeat ich

Right, perhaps we should refile this under: How big a tank do I need for four tangs?

While the feedback is appreciated, no one is answering my actual questions. So far all I have gotten out of this is: TTM is better and my tanks are too small for tangs.

To reiterate my questions:
- Does Seachem Prime actually work, or can fish still get ammonia poisoning while dosing it?

- Is it possible to have a cycled QT utilizing hypo, or will I need to plan to do massive water changes?

- What is the best way manage PH while treating hypo salinity?

Thanks


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[elgringodiablo]

Ich/Hypo/QT Woes, HELP!!!

Oh, and trust me, I won't be adding any new fish during the fallow period after this debacle. If I didn't already have thousands of dollars in coral, anemones and equipment invested into this tank, I'd almost rather take a match to it. I've had cyano, Dino, GHA, bryopsis and Ich in 8 months. Pretty sure the reef gods are trying to tell me something.


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[dweber618]

I have always had success with prime and the seachem Ammonia alert badges. You could also get the seachem Ammonia test as it tests for both for both free, and total Ammonia.

Just keep up on water changes and clean left over food out after the fish are done eating to help keep the Ammonia in check.

I don't know the answer to the other 2 questions as I've never run hypo.

 

[elgringodiablo]

I have always had success with prime and the seachem Ammonia alert badges. You could also get the seachem Ammonia test as it tests for both for both free, and total Ammonia.

Just keep up on water changes and clean left over food out after the fish are done eating to help keep the Ammonia in check.

I don't know the answer to the other 2 questions as I've never run hypo.

Thanks


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[elgringodiablo]

Do you guys use HOB filters and/or powerheads while doing TTM or just air line for 3 days at a time? After my massive, likely ammonia related, losses. I am definitely having second thoughts about attempting hypo in the future and leaning toward CP or TTM.


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[dweber618]

I use the Cobalt MJ Powerheads (I forget what size I have) in my TTM tanks. They come with an airline you can leave out of the water to pull air in (like the picture). I have it towards the surface so it creates a lot of surface agitation, and makes a lot of air bubbles.

After TTM I move them to a long term observation tank (that has been running for several days and preferably seeded with something from my main tank). That tank has a HOB filter, and a powerhead.

 

[lg2725]

I am just using the air bubbler for TTM. after 24 hours in I add Prime to keep the ammonia in check. 48 hours later I do a 30% water change. That will keep any chance of ammonia becoming a problem at pretty much zero.
When it is time to QT for the duration, I picked up a HOB filter for the 55 gal QT tank while my other "new" fish are going through their TTM.

 

[elgringodiablo]

Good info! Thanks!


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[ThRoewer]

...
The most devastating of which has been Ich. I've lost 70% of the fish I've added to this tank to Ich.

...

This and the losses you had in the treatment tank rather speak for Velvet.

I have ich in my system and it hasn't killed a single fish. When I add a new fish it may get a few spots, but after a month they are usually clean.

Fish dying in large numbers from ich would indicate other issues (overcrowding, fights or other stressors).
You would also see an out of control ich infection coming for a good while with wave after wave hitting the fish and each wave being stronger than the previous.

Hyposalinity has worked for me every time I had to treat new fish for ich.
Though hyposalinity won't do much against velvet - for that you would need Chloroquine Phosphate.
If it was me I would add CP to the hyposalinity treatment right now.

 

[elgringodiablo]

This and the losses you had in the treatment tank rather speak for Velvet.



I have ich in my system and it hasn't killed a single fish. When I add a new fish it may get a few spots, but after a month they are usually clean.



Fish dying in large numbers from ich would indicate other issues (overcrowding, fights or other stressors).

You would also see an out of control ich infection coming for a good while with wave after wave hitting the fish and each wave being stronger than the previous.



Hyposalinity has worked for me every time I had to treat new fish for ich.

Though hyposalinity won't do much against velvet - for that you would need Chloroquine Phosphate.

If it was me I would add CP to the hyposalinity treatment right now.

Thanks for the feedback. The 70% losses I was referring to were over time in my DT. Like the tank seemed stable enough, maybe a bit of flashing, but no spots. Added a couple fish, new fish got Ich and died 6-12 days later. Most of the existing population (the 16 I pulled out) survived exhibiting only mild symptoms if any.

I removed everyone to go fallow for 72 days and treat the existing inhabitants to make sure I didn't have any resistant carriers. I don't think the fish in QT died of velvet, no visible signs. Pretty sure I underestimated the toxicity of the ammonia present in the QT post hypo and relied too heavily on Prime to handle it. I don't think 12% per day + Prime was enough to avoid ammonia poisoning. Probably should have done at least 35% until cycle stabilized.

That said, once my survivors pass hypo and the 72 day fallow mark, I will likely switch to prophylactic CP or TTM for all new additions. I definitely need to be more methodical.


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[elgringodiablo]

Thanks for the feedback. The 70% losses I was referring to were over time in my DT. Like the tank seemed stable enough, maybe a bit of flashing, but no spots. Added a couple fish, new fish got Ich and died 6-12 days later. Most of the existing population (the 16 I pulled out) survived exhibiting only mild symptoms if any.

I removed everyone to go fallow for 72 days and treat the existing inhabitants to make sure I didn't have any resistant carriers. I don't think the fish in QT died of velvet, no visible signs. Pretty sure I underestimated the toxicity of the ammonia present in the QT post hypo and relied too heavily on Prime to handle it. I don't think 12% per day + Prime was enough to avoid ammonia poisoning. Probably should have done at least 35% until cycle stabilized.

That said, once my survivors pass hypo and the 72 day fallow mark, I will likely switch to prophylactic CP or TTM for all new additions. I definitely need to be more methodical.


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12% vs 35% water changes that is


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[ThRoewer]

It needs to be already a massive infection for ich to kill a new and clean fish in a week or two.

Everything you describe fits velvet better than ich.

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[elgringodiablo]

It needs to be already a massive infection for ich to kill a new and clean fish in a week or two.

Everything you describe fits velvet better than ich.

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Good to know. If that's the case, is it likely my survivors are immune but possible carriers? Will going fallow cute the DT? How do I treat fish that won't tolerate CP or Copper? One of my 6 remaining fish is a wrasse. Guess I have some reading to do.


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