Ich immunity/infection question

[RSK2785]

my tank is currently suffering from an ich outbreak and i am unsure of how it started. the tank is a 180g that has been running since april, i had 7 fish (o-spot goby, kole tang, r gramma, 2 percs, flame angel, fairy wrasse) which i added from my old tank that were doing fine, about a month ago i added two wrasses (fairy/flasher), the flasher i had in qt for 3-4 weeks before adding and it looked fine the entire time, the last one i put right into the tank but had been watching it at the lfs for about a month and also looked fine.

the flasher wrasse i had in qt and royal gramma i had prior have died and the kole tang appears to be next. the other fish currently do not show any signs of infection or change in behavior.

i tested the water and i believe my phosphates are .50 (the api test kit is hard to tell the difference between .0 and .5), the other levels were normal would this aggravate the problem?

if a fish were immune and introduced it to the tank, is there any way to know how long they could potentially be a host or if they were infected?

i do not have enough room to qt all of the fish to treat them all, if a fish were immune would they still perpetuate the life cycle of ich over time?

thank you in advance

 

[ehaleyjr18]

Our clowns developed Ich yesterday. Got home last night and placed them in the Q/T with hypo-salinity. The female was listing to the side and was really distressed; the male seemed OK. This morning the Ich was gone and they seemed to moving about looking normal. My issue is that they would not eat.My suggestion would be to check out the threads here about treating Ich with hypo-salinity.

 

[jamesbaur13]

I'm not a big fan of hypo-salinity... IMO it's too much of a balancing act in order to parameters correct.

Best method I have found of curing ich is tank transfer. Within 4 days you'll see no more spots.

The whole theory behind it is ich only feeds on a host for approx 3 days, after that it drops off, attaches to something, starts dividing, then hatches.

Basically, you interrupt the life cycle, so after it feeds and drops off the fish is moved to a new tank. The old tank (which the ich is reproducing in) is then cleaned and sterilized.

There is zero chemicals and zero stress from the fish having to adjust to hypo.

Yes there is stress from moving the fish from one tank to another tank. If you are good about how you catch them, this is minimal. Drain the water level and use a clear cup to catch the fish (not a net).

I would recommend this to the OP for his fish which are in bad shape.

I would couple this with antibiotic treatment. Chances are a secondary infection is killing off your fish, not the ich itself.

For the fish left in the tank... i'd start adding metro +, garlic, and selcon to their food.

Start researching good brands of food and use them if you are not already. Tend to overfeed slightly.

Do what you can to minimize stress in the tank.

Keep water quality up as much as possible.

Don't add any new fish and don't be surprised if it might blow up again after adding one even after it seems like you're in the clear. As long as you have fish ich is going to be in there.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Without going into a lot of detail, fish can be infected with Ich and not show any visible symptoms for a prolonged period of time. Most things I've read say up to 8-10 weeks, but I suspect even longer than that. This forum is filled with accounts from people who claim they never saw Ich in their tank for months (or even years), and them BAM! all their fish have it. Although controversial, I feel the best option is to just assume every fish you buy has Ich and treat prophylactically. For more conventional wisdom, I suggest you read this sticky:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196

 

[snorvich]

if a fish were immune and introduced it to the tank, is there any way to know how long they could potentially be a host or if they were infected?

Yes, in the infrequent cases of immunity, they can still be carriers. Also immunity is not perpetual, it wears off.

 

[snorvich]

Although controversial, I feel the best option is to just assume every fish you buy has Ich and treat prophylactically.

I agree. I advocate tank transfer as the best method. See my blog for an example of best fish introduction process.

 

[RSK2785]

understanding the 9 week fallow period, if a fish continued to not show signs in my dt would i be able to leave it in the tank and have it still work? i suppose there is no way to be certain, but if i do not have enough room to do transfers and keep fish out of the dt im not sure how to get around it.

however i suppose i could do one or two at a time based on their condition and have one tank for "cured" fish until the 9 week period is over.

 

[jamesbaur13]

That wouldn't work... ich doesn't work that way.

As long as ich has a food source (your fish) and a harbor in which to reproduce (any surface within your tank). You'll continue to have ich.

 

[RSK2785]

thanks that was exactly what i was looking for, that is what i assumed would be the case, if a fish does not outwardly show any signs of infection should i just treat them with prazi-pro? seems like a moot point to do the transfer if there arent any parasites visible

 

[snorvich]

That wouldn't work... ich doesn't work that way.

As long as ich has a food source (your fish) and a harbor in which to reproduce (any surface within your tank). You'll continue to have ich.

Exactly.

 

[snorvich]

thanks that was exactly what i was looking for, that is what i assumed would be the case, if a fish does not outwardly show any signs of infection should i just treat them with prazi-pro? seems like a moot point to do the transfer if there arent any parasites visible

Ich being visible or not is irrelevant. If they come from a tank with ich, they have ich.

 

[jamesbaur13]

I'm going to post this... and I know I'm going to be scoffed/flamed.

My tank has ich.

I attempted to beat it. I followed one of the protocols mentioned in the stickies without any luck and I spent >$600 in the attempt (>the cost of the fish)

My first post is what ultimately "worked" for me and it was considerably less money.

It's not a cure, i'll always have it so long as i have fish

 

[RSK2785]

what i mean is it seems pointless to do the transfer method on a fish that doesnt show any spots, not that they shouldnt be transferred from the dt, but put in a qt and treated with prazi-pro correct?

 

[jamesbaur13]

For a fish thats already in your system, you're right... what's there is already there and is going to remain there unless you break the cycle in the display tank... leaving it fallow for >10weeks.

The only benefit in removing a fish (not all) is if you have one in really poor shape. You might be able to rescue him by tank transferring coupled with an antibiotic to deal with secondary infections. There's a number of different antibiotics which kill a number of different bacteria. Figuring out which one is causing your fish harm... that's tough. Best bet is to post symptoms on here and hope someone can chime in with a recommendation.

For newly aquired fish not exposed to your display tank... I strongly recommend the transfer method with prazi pro. It'll eradicate a good number of issues that the fish may not be showing signs of... it's an effective and mild proactive treatment.

Understand... ich, compared to velvet and flukes, is nothing.

 

[RSK2785]

yeah im just trying to get a game plan for what im going to do, heading to the lfs tomorrow so i am trying to get a list of things i need. plan to transfer the worst fish tomorrow morning. have a tank that has been running for about a day, its not long but i dont see that i have many options on short notice and for multiple transfers. i appreciate everyone's help and suggestions, hopefully this is the first and last time i have to deal with a disease in my dt.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I'm going to post this... and I know I'm going to be scoffed/flamed.

My tank has ich.

I attempted to beat it. I followed one of the protocols mentioned in the stickies without any luck and I spent >$600 in the attempt (>the cost of the fish)

My first post is what ultimately "worked" for me and it was considerably less money.

It's not a cure, i'll always have it so long as i have fish

FWIW, I don't blame you. In my previous tank, I had Ich twice and went fallow 10+ weeks both times to starve it out. The first time was my fault, but I still can't figure out how I got it the second time as I followed all the rules.

I QT all fish for 10+ weeks religiously and prophylactically treat all fish with Prazi, and then either Chloroquine Phosphate or tank transfer. I even QT inverts/corals. However, if I ever get Ich in my DT again, I'm jumping on the "manage Ich" bandwagon. I'd rather just get out of this hobby altogether than go thru the whole "tear apart the tank/go fallow thing" ever again.

 

[jamesbaur13]

yeah im just trying to get a game plan for what im going to do, heading to the lfs tomorrow so i am trying to get a list of things i need. plan to transfer the worst fish tomorrow morning. have a tank that has been running for about a day, its not long but i dont see that i have many options on short notice and for multiple transfers. i appreciate everyone's help and suggestions, hopefully this is the first and last time i have to deal with a disease in my dt.

RSK, please make sure you have read the tank transfer method sticky and understand what is needed.

You need 2 tanks for it to be truly effective. I think ich can go through it's life cycle as fast as 7 days (just pulling numbers off the top of my head, anyone please correct me if i'm wrong). So, if treatment is going to exceed 7 days for the sick fish you really need a 2nd tank. This will ensure that the fish doesn't get reinfected during treatment.

Typically, you move the fish to a new tank every 3 days (best done in the morning as the parasite falls off during the night).

 

[RSK2785]

yeah i have a few tanks laying around, what i need is filtration for them, have two aio tanks that i was going to put carbon mesh bags in of the appropriate size for filtration, figure it would be cheap and effective for cycling every 3 days, unless there is a better suggestion. i read through one of the qt stickies but they recommend using a seeded sponge filter but that seems silly if im just going to be cleaning everything out after 3 days.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Don't worry about a biofilter during the transfers. The antibiotics would wreck your biofilter if you had one.

I used just a tank, maxijet and a heater.

You'll beat out the ammonia cycle unless you are feeding ridiculously.

Just need to match temp ph and salinity for the fish... i usually drip acclimated my fish while sanitizing their old tank.

I also gave him a formalin dip before putting him in the new tank, but that stuff is rough to come by these days. I'd love to find a substitute for this... basically a product that would need a low contact time, would sanitize the water column and not distress the fish.

 

[A sea K]

RSK, please make sure you have read the tank transfer method sticky and understand what is needed.

You need 2 tanks for it to be truly effective. I think ich can go through it's life cycle as fast as 7 days (just pulling numbers off the top of my head, anyone please correct me if i'm wrong). So, if treatment is going to exceed 7 days for the sick fish you really need a 2nd tank. This will ensure that the fish doesn't get reinfected during treatment.

Typically, you move the fish to a new tank every 3 days (best done in the morning as the parasite falls off during the night).

As I see it the OP will actually need three tanks if his goal is to eliminate Ich from his fish and display. Two tanks for TT method and the third tank(large enough to house all of his current fish) will be needed as a final QT for the fishing coming out of TT to reside while his main display lay fallow for the 9-10 week period. Otherwise he'll just be placing the clean fish from the TT back into the main display which will still be infected, essentially negating any benefit of TT.
At least this is how I understand it and am preparing to do myself.