Ich in the wild?

[jnarowe]

After reading a zillion descriptions of fish and fish health articles I have a question that maybe someone on RC can answer:

Certain fish like some tangs are reportedly more suseptible to ich in the captive environment and often contract it when stressed. I have seen a tank-full of tangs suddenly get white spots when their night (sleep) cycle is interupted and although i am not sure that was ich, it sure looked like it. The owner said it was because the fish were stressed.

My assumption is that perhaps these more suseptable fish keep and thinner slime on their bodies and when stressed that slime breaks down and allows parasites or disease to take hold.

So, keeping in mind that some fish are more apt to contract ich, and that may be some metabolic anomally, what happens in the wild when these fish are attacked as prey? Does an entire shoal of tangs get a rash? Do many of them contract ich because of the stress?

And then, do they go to cleaning stations to get rid of it? Is it a matter of captive fish are in a much higher concentration when the tank is polluted with parasites or some disease? Is ich documented in the wild?

 

[irmee4]

i have seen a few pictures of wild specimens covered in ich. i think they can get it but not as easily.

 

[WY_REEFER]

I read that if you quareteen everything longer than the lifecycle of ICK it can never get into your main tank. Is this true?

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

This is not necessarily true, WY_REEFER. Let's say that you put an ich-positive fish in QT. Whether it is known or unknown to have outward signs of ich. Then you wait out the 6-8 week fallow period for your display tank. Now your QT is infested, and your display tank is safe. If you introduce the ich-positive fish in the tank, you have just jeopordized the display. There is a chance that the fish had made a 100% recovery, but there is a higher chance that it is still caring ich but you just can't see any outward effects. This especially hold true if you introduce any water from the infected QT. The benefit of the QT though, is you can treat with copper to help eliminate the pest while it is transitioning outside of the host.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

but the whole point of quarantining is to keep fish in there long enough to make sure the ick has died. ick can only live for so long without having a host. if your qt tank is empty for an extended period of time (i believe the cycle is 30 days give or take), then the ick will all die. if you introduce a ick pos fish into quarantine it will begin showing signs before you put it into the main and you can then treat. so you will be pretty much garanteed that no fish will introduce ick into your tank. now is there any other possible way it can get in if you quar everything for lets say 6 weeks?

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Yes, but just because you don't see cysts on the fish doesn't mean that the fish isn't carrying ich. Unlike a bacteria or disease that something develops an immunity to, ich is a parasite that can come back. So, lets take the scenario above just slightly further. "New Guy" (NG) sets up a tank or has one for a long time that is fallow and/or ich free. NG buys an ich positive fish and places it in the QT. QT is infected, display is not. NG waits 6-8 weeks for ich to die. QT most likely still infected, display is not. NG sees no signs of ich or sees signs and treats. QT has lower chance of having ich, Display is still uninfected. NG places "New Fish" (NF) in display. QT most likely has ich still, Display may have ich. QT is left fallow for 6-8 weeks. QT is sterile, Display more than likely carries ich. Now NG can either have an incident that requires the NF to go back to QT or NG buys a second new fish. Either way, chance are that this will keep the cycle going. But treatment and proper acclimition drastically reduces the chances of a parasite such as ich from entering the display and wreaking havoc.

 

[Youngsilver]

Just my $.02
scuba_steve1,

To clerify what Travis is saying:
See the problem is that ick is thousands, i dont know, maybe millions of individual organisms, those indivuals are going to be at different stages in their life cycle and so while one set of parasites are under the fishes skin, more are in the sand as eggs, more are in the water column, and so, when one says the life cycle of ich, the question you have to ask, is which ick of the millions in your QT? To truely rid a Display tank of ick is to complety kill the parasites in the QT, you do that copper or hyposalinty, hyposalinity, IMHO being the safest. But the problem ,again, you are trying to kill off millions at a time, and the chances of a 100.0000% killing of these little buggers are slim. What if 10 of 1million are in the Tomont state (eggs at teh bottom of the tank) along with thousands of others, when you treat with copper or hyposalinity and survive it? they then shift to the Theront phase (free swimming in the water column, not visible to the naked eye, and 2 get scooped up into net when you go to put the fish back into the display. Guess what the dsiplay is infected again. Ich in OMO along with many others including Travis is someting that will always be presnt in all aquariums, and in the wild. How do I keep my fish form being suseptable to it then? dont stress your fish, maintain your lighting cycle, keep paramiters constant and at good levels and dont stock you rtank with fish that dont get along.

jnarowe:

The august issue of Reefkeeping magazine in 2003 discusses marine ick:
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen, and overcrowding are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of stress, but I find it more appropriate to think of all of these as wholly unnatural conditions. In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
... In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase [tomont phase]ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

I have also read that there are studies showing that in the wild, fish could even develope immunities to ick over time, but due to the lack of nutrition in an aquariam, this is less likely in the confines of your tank. I cant remember wher I saw that at though.

 

[jnarowe]

That makes sense of course!

 

[wazbot]

Here is an excellent article on ich:

www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

enjoy

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Sombody on Rc said they whent diving on the coral reef and saw yellow tangs scratching allot.

 

[Tu Ku]

Everytime that I've ever dealt with actual ich, that was solidly classified as ich and couldn't be mistaken as a parasite, the disease "ich" actually never ever goes away. It's like chicken pox, once the fish gets it, it can either kill them or they can get over it, if they get over it then it will be with them for the rest of their lives, they've only become immune to it's effects. A quarantined fish is never cured only relieved. The real trouble comes from the purchase of a new fish, a healthy fish that has never been exposed. As soon as the regular tankmates meet the new one they become stressed and release this chemical like we have adrenaline and with that they release the ich into the water to find itself a new healthy host. To avoid this I always recommend that you acclimate any new tankmates at night or in as dark of conditions as possible. Far less action for them to focus on.

 

[jnarowe]

so let's say I QT ofr 4 weeks, then you suggest introducing them into the reef at night? Wouldn't that be more stressful?

 

[Gobie]

I have had ich since I have been keeping fish. All the fish in my tank now and then get a parasite. They never die because of it and I never treat them for it. It comes and goes, sometimes I wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t see parasites for months. I just seen two on my seven year old hippo tang, he swims over to the neon gobies and they pick them off. My fish arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t ever scratching on the rock or in any stress. They are fat and as healthy as a captive fish can be. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worry about ich, but I do worry about disease so I QT fish Im not sure of. There is ich in my tank so if I have a fish with ich I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t treat them for it, I put them in my display it goes away on its own. Been doing it like this forever and always have to sell fish when they get too big back to the store and Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m complemented on how healthy they are, I always get more then I payed, of course there large fish now. I got three times what I payed for a clown tang!

I never see it on more then one fish and it isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t like the fish is covered, it will be one or two specks and itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s very seldom.

 

[jnarowe]

Gobie: great attitude! So the neons are working out for you? How many do you have and how do they act with various fish? Are they completely OK for a community reef?

 

[Gobie]

I have four gobies and they do a good job cleaning fish and they are completely reef safe.

Fish in my tank will get ich if there is a stressful event like a fight between tangs that last for more then a day. I sold the clown tang because he started fighting with all the fish in the tank. Nothing else changed just the fish being overly aggressive for weeks. There were no new additions to the tank that could have caused it but all the tangs were showing signs of ich. I removed the clown tang and the ich went away. So stress dose have a big influence on ich. Proper nutrition is another factor, you should keep your fish fat.

 

[jnarowe]

mmmm...I love fat fish.

I am wondering if the term "ich" is being applied to more than one condition? I have seen fish get stressed and get what looks like ich but when the stress goes away, the ich is gone. It's more like a rash it seems. And then I have seen fish get ich and it just spreads and can kill if the fish is not treated.

Does that make sense?

 

[Gobie]

Ich kind of stands off of the surface of the fish like the tip of a needle.

If I had a thousand gallon reef, I wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have to sell my fish. My dream is to have a thank like yours some day. My naso would love it! Sadly I will have to sell him eventually, if I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t hit the lottery soon. :lol:

 

[Gobie]

I think when a fish gets ich that spreads, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s just the parasites taking advantage of a sick dying fish. when the fish dies Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s blamed on the ich, the ich didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t help but a sick fish would have got infested in the wild and died just the same.

 

[wazbot]

@ Tu Ku, are you trolling? I disagree with:

Everytime that I've ever dealt with actual ich, that was solidly classified as ich and couldn't be mistaken as a parasite, the disease "ich"

Ich is a parasite.

if they get over it then it will be with them for the rest of their lives, they've only become immune to it's effects.

as above, Im unsure if we are discussing the same parasite.

A quarantined fish is never cured only relieved

As soon as the regular tankmates meet the new one they become stressed and release this chemical like we have adrenaline and with that they release the ich into the water to find itself a new healthy host.

Do you have any references for the above statements? Would make for some interesting reading.

Cheers

 

[jnarowe]

Gobie You don't have to hit the lottery to have a big tank. You just have to prioritize differently and be smart about your setup. Of course it will cost more than 200g, but you get so much more out of it in some ways. It is inherently more stable so theoretically your losses would be reduced and you could offset some of the cost by selling frags.

Up front it costs more to build, but if you get to the point of selling 50 frags a month, you're ahead of break-even. Then you get to have a great hobby and a kickback.



wazbot Thanks!