Ich problem

[SEAMONSTER]

Hello. K here is what's going on. I have one fish a whitecheek tang in
A 60 gallon reef. Had it for 2 months eats like a pig very feisty
Alert, fat. The only thing is he has ich. I took out all the live rock
And boiled them to kill the ich. Did not reintroduce the rock did 2
Massive water changes on sat. 15 gallons and sun. 20 gallons. Gonna
Do one again tomorrow 20 gallons. I am getting a 120 gallon
Tank and I am going to use my existing 60 for da sump. There is
Only one large piece of live rock because of a staghorn on it
Live sand maxima clam montipora 2 species frogspawn scroll coral
And 2 cleaner shrimp and 2 peppermint shrimp. Oh ya 3 snails and one cucumber that eats or filters the sand. I have some room to quarantine
But I am super inexperienced with copper or fw dipping. My lfs does
Not run copper in his systems and I waited 2 months before I bought
The fish. I ran my tank fallow for over 4 mos before I got the fish.
So I was thinking of rinsing sand in fw drying it and board da rest at lfs.
Tearing down whole system. My question is does the ich live in the live rock,coral, clam or clam shells? In the inverts? How do I quarantine those?
Any meds to kill ich off inverts? Suggestions? How long should I wait before
I put coral in new system? I was thinking of boarding tang at another lfs
That runs copper to kill ich. How long should I board him?

 

[Jacob D]

I read your post a few times, I'm not completely sure I understand what you're going to do with your current setup/livestock and the new setup/livestock but I'm going to take a stab at it anyway...

I would suggest starting here for some information on Ich.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

During stages of its lifecycle the parasites will be on/in the substrate until they start swimming. If you're trying to eradicate ich from your system you'll have to either keep the rock and sand in a fishless tank for a few months or sterilize them. The inverts shouldn't harbour the parasites but they could hitch a ride on them... so just isolate them in a tank with no fish for a few months. Medications that kill Ich (copper, cholorquine phosphate) are hard on inverts.

If you're going to go through the effort of eradicating ich from your system you're putting everything into the LFS hands by having them board your fish. Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that since one weak link will defeat all work you put in.

 

[Chris27]

Basically, you destroyed your bio-filter by boiling your rock. Additionally, by leaving the small amount of coral/inverts/sand in the tank, Crypt is still going to be there.

At this point, you're in for some work, as you'll most likely have to contend with ammonia issues and another cycle.

Finding another tank to use as a QT/Hospital Tank would be a good idea right now. With a separate QT, you'll be able to put only the fish and a small non-calcareous filter in it for treatment.

Do a little reading on cryptocaryon irritans to get a better understanding of the parasite and how to eradicate it from your system.

 

[SEAMONSTER]

Thank you very much for the replies! Ok, so they can hitch a ride? How long should I keep the inverts in a separate system before reintro in the new tank? How long should I quarantine the tang?

 

[SEAMONSTER]

If I copper dip,how does this affect the tang's immune system and other issues with the tang?

 

[SEAMONSTER]

Ok, sorry about this but another question, what about fw dipping? Methyline blue? etc. Is there a dip that eradicates the ich from inverts?

 

[SEAMONSTER]

Yeah Jacob, I read that article a number of times, that is where I got the Idea of massive water changes. I really want to do this chemical free, but I do not know if it is possible, doing garlic soak, clean conditions in tank, frequent feedings, water changes, etc. to keep tangs immune system going. He is very fiesty, active, somewhat of a bully. Scares the shrimps too! lol! but he still scrathes, has ich. Thank you though!

 

[katarina]

MY experience is with freshwater, not salt, but in a freshwater tank a fish that gets ich is stressed. I have had tanks that only one fish would get ich. I removed that fish as soon as the first spots appeared and treated it with Seachem's Paraguard. Then I did a LOT of water changes and gravel vacuming. I have treated entire tanks with Paraguard but I don't know what it would do to coral. Good luck.

 

[smtank]

Yeah Jacob, I read that article a number of times, that is where I got the Idea of massive water changes. I really want to do this chemical free, but I do not know if it is possible, doing garlic soak, clean conditions in tank, frequent feedings, water changes, etc. to keep tangs immune system going. He is very fiesty, active, somewhat of a bully. Scares the shrimps too! lol! but he still scrathes, has ich. Thank you though!

I would not look to massive water changes to treat ich. As long as Marine Ich has a fish to feed on it can complete it's reproductive cycle.

There is a ton of information out there regarding treatment for ich.

Anything that says you can add it directly to the display tank to treat ich is snake oil IMO. I would not look there for a solution.

Treatment with:

Copper, not to be done with hyposalinity treatment. Never treat a display tank with copper or formalin.

Formalin, need to do the research as it is very toxic.

Hyposalinity, will kill inverts and corals if you do it in the display

Leaving the tank fallow,( without fish for as long as 2 months)

If you want to treat the fish you are best to use a QT.

Or you can just enhance the diet and hope the fish gets better on it's own.

 

[bryan007]

It is very simple. Either you leave your DT fallow for 6 to 8 weeks-no fish so the parasite can go through it's life stages without a host and take your tang and place in a QT using anything such as Copper, Malachite green or any other good med or lose your Tang and if place back in your DT keep the cycle going until it is dead and most any other fish you add. Many have dealt with this disease have learned there just are no short cuts once your tank gets it including myself. No product that says it is reef safe truly is as effective as some of the meds I just mentioned-really you will waste your money. If there was as someone said they'd be selling it by the truck load and we would all know about it. Again leave your tank fallow and but the Tang in a QT tank and use Copper.

 

[SEAMONSTER]

What if I use my 9 watt uv sterilizer in around 12 gallons of water with skimmer heater, lr and lr. with the tang. I have to break down my 60 anyway to turn that into a sump for my new 120. I am going to use new saltwater too. Will that kill the ich?

 

[SEAMONSTER]

If not a good idea, my lfs runs copper and I can have them hold the tang for me.... I am going to keep my corals here though. I do not have the space for both.....

 

[Jacob D]

UV sterilization is covered in Part II of the article which is linked at the end of Part I. UV can only kill what passes through it; if any parasites are in/on the fish or substrate, or swimming around in the tank they can continue to multiply and will always be present (in smaller numbers, but they will still be there).

The water change method can probably work, but to have any chance with it (IMO) you have to remove all substrate - no sand, no rock, nothing... If you're trying to eradicate a parasite methods that will "probably or maybe work" could end up costing you a lot of time and energy with no end result.

One thing to realize about that article is that it covers pretty much all of the "treatment" options that people have come up with over time, even though some of them are essentially unproven or there is no scientific evidence that they work. The author doesn't try to hide that so where you see "Option 1, 2, 3..." you really need to read it fully. If you are talking from a scientific standpoint there are only a few viable treatment options and "smtank" has covered them pretty well in their post above.

FWIW, I do believe that keeping fish well fed with good foods goes a long way in keeping them healthy but once infected with an organism like Ich they will always be infected unless you treat it. Having a strong immune system only allows them to fight of secondary and tertiary issues that could arise from the parasitic attack.

 

[SEAMONSTER]

OK, here is what my set up looks like. There is no fish in it. There is a 9 watt sterilizer and skimmer from my 60 gallon set up. As you can see, there is some sand and one piece of live rock for filtration. How long should I leave it like this before I place them in the main system? :hmm3:

 

[SEAMONSTER]

Thank you very much for all the replies. The tang is being quarantined it my lfs that runs copper. Tang is not swimming in it though, they dip it. Lfs claims that if he is just in copper water, it is very detrimental to the tang. I thoughoruly cleaned the 60 gallon, used pressure washer with no soap at car wash! LOL! to clean tank, get rid of sand and pressure washed sump as well! Got clean sump for sale too! Great for tanks up to 60 gallons! Got a black stand for 60 for sale too! I looked in on the tang yesterday, he is not darting around, but he does have ich. He was a little stressed, got faint vertical bars sometimes....But he is eating. Coloration changes off and on. He is kinda light colored, then displays vertical bars. He is in a 300+ gallon system for live rock.

I know that my 60 gallon was too small for this species of fish, that is why I am getting the 120. I was very suprised that he got ich considering that I did run my tank fallow for over 4 months before I got the tang. That is why I went to extremes and boiled my rock, boiled sand, etc. to eradicate any disease before I put it in the new system. I need to buy more sand anyway, that will seed the new system. All this was boiled in fresh water, of course. No chemicals of any kind was used. Apartment was smelling kinda ripe! LOL! Items are being dried out, the live rock is already dry. I believe that this is enough to kill everything. Any ideas to keep out ich in new system? Any ideas of how long I should keep my corals and such separate from new system?

 

[RBU1]

OK dude first of all you are all over the place and should really SLOW down.....In your first post you state your LFS does NOT use copper, then you say your LFS is going to treat the fish for you in copper.....OK moving on....

I would NEVER trust a LFS to QT any fish for me....Well almost none There is MAYBE one store I would trust buying a fish from and not QTing it....But its still a risk. Your LFS probably does not keep the copper at the proper level first of all....Second unless your fish in in a system that does not get any fish added to it for the entire treatment of about 3-4 weeks you are wasting your time and his.

Boiling your rock was probably to dumbest thing you could have done. You killed everything beneficial on the rock and are basically starting a new tank again. All you had to do was leave your main tank fishless for 10 weeks. The life cycle of ich would have occured and your tank would have been parasite free.

If I were you I would set up a main tank with all your boiled rock and let it run for a couple months before I put anything but bacteria in it. After the couple months start adding your clean up crew....After the clean up crew wait another 8 weeks and start to get fish...BUT QT your own fish for at least 8 weeks before putting them in your tank.

 

[ebe]

It is very simple. Either you leave your DT fallow for 6 to 8 weeks-no fish so the parasite can go through it's life stages without a host and take your tang and place in a QT using anything such as Copper, Malachite green or any other good med or lose your Tang and if place back in your DT keep the cycle going until it is dead and most any other fish you add. Many have dealt with this disease have learned there just are no short cuts once your tank gets it including myself. No product that says it is reef safe truly is as effective as some of the meds I just mentioned-really you will waste your money. If there was as someone said they'd be selling it by the truck load and we would all know about it. Again leave your tank fallow and but the Tang in a QT tank and use Copper.

This is the only real solution, IMO (everyone has theirs...). Display tank fishless for more than 6 weeks. I did 8 weeks. Sick fish treated with a full and monitored hypo or copper treatment in a hospital tank. I did copper. After 8 weeks the treated fish go back in. Otherwise it is a viscious circle.

 

[Jacob D]

There's no reason to call anyone dumb; everyone makes mistakes. This is good advice though...

If I were you I would set up a main tank with all your boiled rock and let it run for a couple months before I put anything but bacteria in it. After the couple months start adding your clean up crew....After the clean up crew wait another 8 weeks and start to get fish...BUT QT your own fish for at least 8 weeks before putting them in your tank.

It's going to take even longer than usual for the rock to have the correct bacteria levels in it. I boiled my LR when I started my current tank (although for different reasons) and it takes MONTHS, probably at least a few. You'll have to go very slowly adding livestock to the 120. The good news is that you'll be starting clean, so if YOU do proper QT on everything (fish, coral, inverts, macro, etc) you can keep pests out of your new system.

 

[RBU1]

There's no reason to call anyone dumb; everyone makes mistakes. This is good advice though...


It's going to take even longer than usual for the rock to have the correct bacteria levels in it. I boiled my LR when I started my current tank (although for different reasons) and it takes MONTHS, probably at least a few. You'll have to go very slowly adding livestock to the 120. The good news is that you'll be starting clean, so if YOU do proper QT on everything (fish, coral, inverts, macro, etc) you can keep pests out of your new system.

I did not call anyone dumb....I called boiling rock dumb. You twisted it to make it sound like I was calling the poster dumb. NOT THE CASE...:lol2:

 

[Inklinkerman]

I had a similar problem in my Fowlr; in the end killed 2 butterflies a dwarf lion and two clowns. It happened in two bouts about 3 months apart. It happen so quickly I think it was brook rather than ich but anyway I digress. I have left the tank fallow for about 5 weeks now with another 3 weeks to go. The tank was mature before this happened but the life that has sprung up in it during this time is amazing, brittle stars, pods, feather dusters, snails, worms etc. It's really quite interesting, I feed once a week just to keep things cooking. So the 5 weeks have flown by. And when I finally reintroduce fish the tank will be so much better off for it.

So basically I'm saying everyone that's facing leaving a tank fallow, it's not all bad and it will be worth it in the end. Plus my reef tank has benefited from my extra attention.

So while your approach I'm sure will work; I think patience is my prefered option; saves time in the end!