Ich - self resolving... ?

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15243242#post15243242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
When one seeks an alternative, one generally wants a simplier one.

Successive tank method is a bit chancy to me. The long period of separation and treatment method works and is not difficult and is rather simple.

Just be committed to eradication of ich from day1 of the mind of the aquarist. Plan to do so includes thorough cycling.

You won't see ich again ever.

Not sure of your point. Tank transfer is quite simple and a proven method. Gentle capture in a qt tank is easy. 3 day changes and light feeding minimize ammonia issues.

I'd seriously question the long term effects of hyposalinity for a 12 week period on the marine fish's internal organs , especially the kidneys which would be in a state of atrophy during that period. Holding the fine line at 1.009 for sg without dropping to 1.008 or lower which could be disastrous is not all that simple. There are many strains of the protozoan crytocaryon irritans ( marine ich) that are resistant to hyposalinity ; None can resist being left behind. Hypo also has no effect on the dinoflagellate amyloodinium (velvet).

Ich is not the only thing to be concerned about either even though it gets all the ink. Brooklynella, flukes, velvet, uronema and internal parsites are also significant concerns. None of these respond to hyposalinity treatments.

I prefer copper and in some cases the tank transfer.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Tank transfer is rather laborious. Repeated capture is no fun for the fish. Some fish won't eat 1-2 days after being handled.

Hypo is likely effective against many parasites for the same reason, as to most invertebrates.

I use Copper for a time while I gradually bring down the salinity.

The way I do requires almost no additional work.

 

[tmz]

Hypo is not effective except for non resistant strains of ich. Look it up. Velvet(amyloodinium) for example does very well in brackish water in nature and is resistant to hypo. The other commonly occurring diseases I noted don't have free swimming phase and are not susceptible to hypo. What other parasites of the osmoconforming variety do you mean when you say it is effective against many parasites?

There is no need to bring the salinity down gradually as long as you don't go below 1.008. Going up needs to be slow about .001 per day. The fish won't experience any stress with a drop in salinity so long as you don't go below 1.008, their internal salinity.They just stop drinking and processing urine; actually,it's less work for them. If you go below 1.008 and keep them there for a while as may occur with a poor sg reading or very close attention to continual top off, they have no way to expel the excess fluids that will diffuse into them from the surrounding water . This will upset homeostasis and can kill them.
While you are dropping salinity slowly to treat an infected fish you take two necessary risks: the cysts which multiply 200 to 300fold could hatch and bring a severe secondary infestation; the parasite might more readily adjust to a gradually lowered level of sg.

Adding less than a therapeutic dose of copper for less than the usually 2 week time frame will serve very little useful purpose and may help a copper resistant strain develop. It will also stick to your rock and substrate to release unpredictably later.

 

[greenbean36191]

according to this article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...c2003/mini2.htm , ctypt "usually" stays on the fish for 3-7 days - so it *could* fall off earlier or stay on longer. it then takes 2-8 hours to settle on a hard surface where it *generally* takes 3-28 days to hatch, and 0-18 hours to reinfect a fish. - so again I'd assume there *could* be some that hatch and infect quicker than this.

The documented ranges in lengths of time for each life stage are as follows:
Trophont (on the fish)- 3-7 days: shorter only when host dies
Protomont- 2-18 hrs
Tomont (cyst on substrate)- 3-72 days
Theronts (infective stage)- 1-2 days, but only infective for 18 hrs

So theoretically, any tomonts formed on day 2 or 3 and any from day 1 that didn't develop at the maximum rate and reinfect the fish will be removed by the first transfer. All but the slowest developing trophonts will encyst during that period and be removed with the second transfer. Again, only the few that encyst on day 1 and excyst on day 3 will be moved on to the third tank. By the third transfer the only parasites that are left are those that developed trough 2 infective cycles at the maximum rate of development or ones that were the slowest developing trophonts but the fastest developing tomonts. The fourth transfer is just in case any parasites did make it through the third transfer.

question, why only 4 transfers? this give you a treatment period of 12 days, where most reccommended treatments (that actually work!) go for 4-6 weeks (3+ lifecycles of the average crypto)

Because 3 transfers is all it should take in theory to eliminate the parasites and the 4th is precautionary.

Other methods rely on disrupting the parasite in specific parts of the lifecycle, which means you could wait as much as 72 days to make sure the parasite goes through a full lifecycle.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I will use Cu before I use the successive tank method.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15244276#post15244276 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Hypo is not effective except for non resistant strains of ich. Look it up. Velvet(amyloodinium) for example does very well in brackish water in nature and is resistant to hypo. The other commonly occurring diseases I noted don't have free swimming phase and are not susceptible to hypo. What other parasites of the osmoconforming variety do you mean when you say it is effective against many parasites?

There is no need to bring the salinity down gradually as long as you don't go below 1.008. Going up needs to be slow about .001 per day. The fish won't experience any stress with a drop in salinity so long as you don't go below 1.008, their internal salinity.They just stop drinking and processing urine; actually,it's less work for them. If you go below 1.008 and keep them there for a while as may occur with a poor sg reading or very close attention to continual top off, they have no way to expel the excess fluids that will diffuse into them from the surrounding water . This will upset homeostasis and can kill them.
While you are dropping salinity slowly to treat an infected fish you take two necessary risks: the cysts which multiply 200 to 300fold could hatch and bring a severe secondary infestation; the parasite might more readily adjust to a gradually lowered level of sg.

Adding less than a therapeutic dose of copper for less than the usually 2 week time frame will serve very little useful purpose and may help a copper resistant strain develop. It will also stick to your rock and substrate to release unpredictably later.

I really don't understand why Oodinium is so much rarely than ick.

You may well be right on the details on hypo; except that I tend to approach this slowly.

The correct dose of Cu is disputed. My feeling is that most fish can take rather high Cu for a brief period but not for long. There is a time/strength relation. I find pulses of Cu effective as opposed to maintaining a constant concentration. IMO, not very sure.

 

[tmz]

The therapeutic dose is not disputed. Following the recommended levels for the specific copper med is the best course. I especially like Cupramine since it is not free copper but will release free copper over time at a therapeutic level. The idea is to have enough free copper in the water where it will kill the parasite in the free swimming phase and to keep it continuously at a lethal level for the parasite without going too high and harming the fish. Spurts of copper and the lower levels create windows for the excysted parasite to get to the fish. Higher levels during spurts may harm the fish unnecessarily without any effect on the parsites in teh fish or those that are encysted. at teh time the "pulse " is delivered.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15246974#post15246974 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
The therapeutic dose is not disputed. Following the recommended levels for the specific copper med is the best course. I especially like Cupramine since it is not free copper but will release free copper over time at a therapeutic level. The idea is to have enough free copper in the water where it will kill the parasite in the free swimming phase and to keep it continuously at a lethal level for the parasite without going too high and harming the fish. Spurts of copper and the lower levels create windows for the excysted parasite to get to the fish. Higher levels during spurts may harm the fish unnecessarily without any effect on the parsites in teh fish or those that are encysted. at teh time the "pulse " is delivered.

I am not a fan of special Cu , but not Cupramine, due to bad experience. The control or release failed it seemed and the fish went to its sides at once. There was something quite wrong.

I use straight Cu because it precipitates. I believe there is little difference between dosing in pulses and trying hard to maintain a constant level. Old books agree with me, but may be not the latest research.

I don't have a strong opinion as to how Cu should be used, except that adding in pulses of straight CuSO4 has always worked for me. Your idea may well be more precise and certain. I do treat for a long time, 8-10 weeks. Odds greatly favor me, I suppose.