ICH treatment idea -

[marc price]

I'd like to run a idea by some of you. i thought of it for another reefer battling Oodinium. I do know how to treat ich and it's not been a problem for me so please save the instructional replies for another post unless otherwise pertinent. thanks.

Now to the problem at hand. A bare 125 gal. / wet dry trickle filter hospital tank, having undergone a month of treating with a questionable product wrt Oodinium Amyloodinium ocellatum. Because there is reasonable doubt I have thought of a idea to help insure the causative organism is no longer present.

Keep in mind i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or suggest the following replace standard proven treatment but rather as a adjunct to such, exclusivity not intended.

The plan is to first remove the inert pvc tubes, to air dry as ich cannot survive desiccation followed by vacuuming the bottom and sides of the tank using a Diatomaceous earth filter. I'd suggest every morning or every third day for a determined length of time. I also would want the trickle filter effluent H2o to pass through a UV sterilizer rated a bit oversized to the actual flow rate.

Although it is possible the ich are already gone as all fish are asymptomatic, there is question to it being present in the gills or yet to emerge from dormant stage. The logic behind my idea is based on that ich are loosely attached to substratum. The vacuum would suck them up for the D.E. to filter them out and the UV will get whatever pass through the trickle filter.

I'm Thinking the idea may effectively eradicate what if any are left of the ich and return piece of mind that it will not be reintroduced to the fallow display tank.

Granted it's much extra work which may or may not be necessary nor are we committed to it. Hence i submit the idea for public scrutiny to read what others think of pertaining to this particular set of circumstances.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

The problem is that you won't be able to ensure that all the theronts are killed before finding a host. It is highly likely that at least some will find fish to attach to and ultimately reproduce, continuing the cycle. This method would likely help reduce numbers and control the infection, but not eliminate it.

 

[RBU1]

The problem is that you won't be able to ensure that all the theronts are killed before finding a host. It is highly likely that at least some will find fish to attach to and ultimately reproduce, continuing the cycle. This method would likely help reduce numbers and control the infection, but not eliminate it.

When most people QT fish they only treat if they see something correct? Lets say a person uses a questionable treatment but after the full treatment term of this said questionable product still leaves the fish in QT for another 7 weeks and all stays good during that period would you feel safe putting them in the DT??

 

[Gwynhidwy]

I don't put anything in my tank that I don't quarantine myself, so I suppose the answer is no. Unless I quarantine the fish myself I would not put the fish in my display.

So, it would be up to the person in question if they feel comfortable with that or not. If I got a fish from someone that had been in this situation, I would probably treat the fish again with something that I know is effective against that disease and then observe them for 6+ weeks before putting them in the DT. Its just not worth the risk to me if I know a fish has been exposed to a particular pathogen, its worth treating with something effective if at all possible. In my opinion the likelihood of an unnoticed pathogen getting into a tank is much higher if you have a fish you know was sick and you know wasn't treated properly, even if symptoms are absent.

 

[RBU1]

Ok so you treat all fish in qt. You dont just observe and if they are good for 8 weeks put them in the dt.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

Well, that's not really what I was saying. I treat all new fish with prazi.

However, in the scenario that you gave, we knew that the fish had a particular disease. Its one thing to put a fish that you've observed no symptoms of any disease in in a DT without further treatment. Its quite another to put a fish that you know was not only exposed, but developed a disease, into a DT without further treatment. If I observe symptoms of a disease, or know a fish had a disease, I would treat them with the treatment that I feel is most effective for that disease, prior to putting them in my DT, and then observe to ensure the treatment was effective. I would not be comfortable relying on a treatment that I feel is generally ineffective, even if I did not see symptoms when I know the fish was sick.

 

[RBU1]

Well, that's not really what I was saying. I treat all new fish with prazi.

However, in the scenario that you gave, we knew that the fish had a particular disease. Its one thing to put a fish that you've observed no symptoms of any disease in in a DT without further treatment. Its quite another to put a fish that you know was not only exposed, but developed a disease, into a DT without further treatment. If I observe symptoms of a disease, or know a fish had a disease, I would treat them with the treatment that I feel is most effective for that disease, prior to putting them in my DT, and then observe to ensure the treatment was effective. I would not be comfortable relying on a treatment that I feel is generally ineffective, even if I did not see symptoms.

ok well not sure what to do.......I guess I will use cupramine....

 

[RBU1]

Well, that's not really what I was saying. I treat all new fish with prazi.

However, in the scenario that you gave, we knew that the fish had a particular disease. Its one thing to put a fish that you've observed no symptoms of any disease in in a DT without further treatment. Its quite another to put a fish that you know was not only exposed, but developed a disease, into a DT without further treatment. If I observe symptoms of a disease, or know a fish had a disease, I would treat them with the treatment that I feel is most effective for that disease, prior to putting them in my DT, and then observe to ensure the treatment was effective. I would not be comfortable relying on a treatment that I feel is generally ineffective, even if I did not see symptoms when I know the fish was sick.

Whatlevel would you run cupramine at with sensitive fish?

 

[Gwynhidwy]

Sorry if I am being unclear, its been a very long day. What I am trying to say is that I believe there is more risk in placing a fish that you know was sick in your DT without proper treatment than there is in placing a fish you have never seen show any signs of illness in your tank without treatment.

If I felt that what the fish was treated with before was an ineffective treatment, I wouldn't expect it to cure the disease and would be concerned that at best it helped the fish fight the disease to an undetectable level.

I tend to be a little overcautious, and if we're talking about your tank, you should do whatever you are comfortable with. If it were me, I would treat the fish again with something I felt was effective and then observe them to be safe.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

Whatlevel would you run cupramine at with sensitive fish?

I have never had any trouble using it at the recommended 0.50mg/L.

 

[RBU1]

Sorry if I am being unclear, its been a very long day. What I am trying to say is that I believe there is more risk in placing a fish that you know was sick in your DT without proper treatment than there is in placing a fish you have never seen show any signs of illness in your tank without treatment.

If I felt that what the fish was treated with before was an ineffective treatment, I wouldn't expect it to cure the disease and would be concerned that at best it helped the fish fight the disease to an undetectable level.

I tend to be a little overcautious, and if we're talking about your tank, you should do whatever you are comfortable with. If it were me, I would treat the fish again with something I felt was effective and then observe them to be safe.

I understand...But I am curious about the level of copper to use. I am nervous with copper treatments but the last time I used a free copper not cupramine. I will also ask Seachem what level to keep my copper at with sensitive fish like angels, tangs.....I think .5 is were I want to be....

 

[Gwynhidwy]

If you follow the directions on the bottle and only add a half dose the first day, you can see how the fish respond. If you see a negative response, you can do a large water change and run carbon and/or Cuprisorb to remove the medication. I have never had a problem at the recommended dose, and I've treated angels and tangs with it. Make sure you don't use any ammonia binders while using Cupramine.

 

[RBU1]

If you follow the directions on the bottle and only add a half dose the first day, you can see how the fish respond. If you see a negative response, you can do a large water change and run carbon and/or Cuprisorb to remove the medication. I have never had a problem at the recommended dose, and I've treated angels and tangs with it. Make sure you don't use any ammonia binders while using Cupramine.

What are some examples of a negative response? Have you ever had that happen? What did you treat with if a half dose caused a negative response?

I asked Seachem some questions to also be safe. I am nervous about using copper but want to make sure NO ICH goes back in my tank......

 

[Gwynhidwy]

I have not had fish have problems with Cupramine. I would be concerned if I saw the fish hiding more than normal, breathing heavily, laying on the bottom, or has a change in eating habits. If I had a problem I would remove the medication from the water and resort to the tank transfer method (if treating ich).

 

[marc price]

The problem is that you won't be able to ensure that all the theronts are killed before finding a host. It is highly likely that at least some will find fish to attach to and ultimately reproduce, continuing the cycle. This method would likely help reduce numbers and control the infection, but not eliminate it.

Right, i thought about that too and i agree that Cu or hypo should be preformed. Was my first recommendation.
Three methods Dr. Harry Dickerson wrote of to eradicate Crypt were in the back of my mind. Stating that in a "bare aquarium", 1) "complete" water changes per day for two to four weeks can eliminate crypt. 2) transferring fish every other day to a clean air "dried" aquarium for at least three weeks would work. Not that i agree and it wasn't clear if he actually did either. The third was to recirculate H2O thru UV claiming success depended on the size of the unit as reported by Gratzek et. al. (1983). I find all possible but not probable, requiring an extended amount of time in a controlled laboratory environment, with a miniscule margin for error.
Again my first advice was the same as yours however we were contemplating possible alternatives regardless of futility.
All fish have been treated since the last 1/4 of September and are going to remain in the treatment tank 'till December. Thing is, there's a real possibility a rare fish will become available in the interim requiring a course of Copper or Hypo anyway so the idea is redundant. If nothing else the idea spurred more dialogue to realize the best course of action.

 

[RBU1]

As soon as I hear from Seachem about the proper way to start using copper after treating with paraguard I will try a copper treatment with cupramine. 14 days enough at .5? Keep in mind the fish are all eating great and looking great.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

Right, i thought about that too and i agree that Cu or hypo should be preformed. Was my first recommendation.
Three methods Dr. Harry Dickerson wrote of to eradicate Crypt were in the back of my mind. Stating that in a "bare aquarium", 1) "complete" water changes per day for two to four weeks can eliminate crypt. 2) transferring fish every other day to a clean air "dried" aquarium for at least three weeks would work. Not that i agree and it wasn't clear if he actually did either. The third was to recirculate H2O thru UV claiming success depended on the size of the unit as reported by Gratzek et. al. (1983). I find all possible but not probable, requiring an extended amount of time in a controlled laboratory environment, with a miniscule margin for error.

Hmm, well I doubt that treatment #1 would be reliable, simply because if you just replace the water in the same tank, any tomonts will likely survive and be released as theronts. However, treatment #2 should be more effective as I understand it. If I were unable to use copper, I would likely choose this method, generally referred to as the 'tank transfer method'. I have not had to use this method myself yet, and I do have some reservations as to its effectiveness. I have never had to treat a fish that didn't tolerate Cupramine well.

The problems that I see with treatment #3 still stand. There are a few problems. One, is dealing with the turbidity and and particulate matter in the water, both of which would shield the free swimming forms of Crypt. Yes, these could be accounted and compensated for, but I don't know if any currently made UV units designed for home aquariums would be adequate. However, the biggest obstacle is still that there is simply no way, at least that I can think of, to ensure that the theronts don't find a host prior to going through the UV. Even if the UV is strong enough, the parasite must go through the UV prior to encountering an acceptable host. There are multiple fish in most of our tanks, likely only one intake for the UV, and I'll give you one guess as to which the parasite is seeking. I still think this treatment is really only good for reducing numbers.

I realize that the UV has two chances to kill free floating forms (mature and infective), but I just don't see it as being effective reliably in practice.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

As soon as I hear from Seachem about the proper way to start using copper after treating with paraguard I will try a copper treatment with cupramine. 14 days enough at .5? Keep in mind the fish are all eating great and looking great.

I have had to treat twice with Cupramine, but only once in all the times I've used it has that been necessary. So if possible, I would keep the fish in quarantine after the 14 day treatment for a few weeks of observation. No treatment is 100% effective 100% of the time.

 

[RBU1]

I have had to treat twice with Cupramine, but only once in all the times I've used it has that been necessary. So if possible, I would keep the fish in quarantine after the 14 day treatment for a few weeks of observation. No treatment is 100% effective 100% of the time.

OK so what do I have to do to guarentee no ich in my main display?????

Seems like there is never a guarentee...

So then I ask is it worth it to use copper after doing the other treatment (paraguard) and having the fish clean for 2 months......

 

[Gwynhidwy]

OK so what do I have to do to guarentee no ich in my main display?????

Seems like there is never a guarentee...

So then I ask is it worth it to use copper after doing the other treatment (paraguard) and having the fish clean for 2 months......

Its true, certainty is a difficult thing. Without a bioscanner of some sort that can detect the presence of particular life forms, like Crypt, I don't think there is anyway to be *certain*. However, it is highly likely that your fish will be ich free if you also treat them with Cupramine.

They may be ich free now. I have never used ParaGuard, nor have I seen any data on how effective it is against Cryptocaryon irritans. So I am not comfortable saying that it is a reliable treatment for this disease.

Whether or not to treat the fish again is really up to you. If you are confident that the fish are healthy, then I don't know why you would treat them. I would not be confident that a fish I knew was infected with parasites was parasite free until I used an effective treatment *and* observed the fish as healthy for a period of 6 weeks. That being said, I have admitted to being an overly cautious person.