Ich/Velvet something else?

[BigCity]

So I had what I thought was ich present on some of my tangs after adding a batch. Looked like tons of really small white spots that covered the entire body, was easy to see on my Achilles. Since I had had the Achilles for so long and was happy and healthy and others were showing signs I chose to ride it out (right, wrong or indifferent it doesn't matter now that's not what this post is about). He went on and was fine for another 3-5 days and then out of the blue I come home and he looks like the picture below. I removed him and placed in a separate tank and he perished the next day. Not sure if the picture would reveal something else that might explain the quick turn and loss. I have since lost almost all of my fish and it really doesn't add up that it would just be ich. Tested and ammonia has stayed within range and my nitrates read 1ppm on Sunday. Any thoughts?

 

[MrTuskfish]

The pic has me totally confused. What kind of tank is this fish in? Is the red stuff cyno?Nitrates don't matter with fish, only inverts. What is ammonia reading? "In range" for an established tank is zero, nothing else. Ich could have weakened this fish, making a huge infestation more likely. If he was showing signs for 4-4 days, velvet would seem unlikely, it spreads and kills quickly. Ich certainly can wipe out a tank too when conditions are right. Did you quarantine the "batch" of new tangs. Can you fill us in on the fish you have, tank size, and when they were added?

 

[HumbleFish]

The pic looks like Ich; but you saying you, "lost almost all of my fish" makes me think Velvet.

 

[BigCity]

It is a 300g tank ammonia test on Sunday read 0 on my red sea pro kit, fish started dying on Saturday and by last night I had lost the following: 3 yellow tangs, 3 hippo tangs, naso, powder brown, achilles, 7 lyretail anthias, and 2 black ice clowns. My wife noticed what she thought was ich on one of the yellows followed by the achilles toward the middle of last week. Fish will be behaving normally the day before they die, some of them would look larthargic and be swimming near the top of the tank the day before. Others like the naso, clowns and anthias showed no signs before finding them dead in the morning. I went ahead and added some ammo guard on Monday and Tuesday just in case my ammonia kit was bad received a seachem ammonia badge yesterday and it confirms no ammonia. There was a cyano and algae outbreak Tuesday into Wednesday of this week, guessing that was triggered by the die off of the anthias, and two blue hippos the night before. I had purchased the tangs from a local retailer and they QT them for me for 4-6 weeks before I picked them up, that batch was put in 2 weekends ago and all of the initial fish to die were from that batch and then my existing fish began to go shortly after.

 

[snorvich]

Velvet. Based primarily on the timeline.

 

[jcdeng]

Velvet, due to the fine powder coating. Ich would have more profound grain size cysts/dots on body.

 

[BigCity]

That's the way I was leaning as well, so is my best action assuming Velvet to take down the system and restart or will leaving it fallow for a certain time ensure it's safe?

 

[snorvich]

That's the way I was leaning as well, so is my best action assuming Velvet to take down the system and restart or will leaving it fallow for a certain time ensure it's safe?

six weeks fallow would be sufficient

 

[BigCity]

So is copper my only option for trying to treat the lone fish I have left sailfin tang, solaris wrass, long nose hawkfish, and 2 pajama/3threadfin cardinals? By the looks of the cardinals this morning covered in white they will be gone soon. The sailfin, solaris, and hawkfish have shown no ill signs so far. Tho the sailfin has been going from light color to a very dark color last night so he might be getting stressed.

 

[HumbleFish]

So is copper my only option for trying to treat the lone fish I have left sailfin tang, solaris wrass, long nose hawkfish, and 2 pajama/3threadfin cardinals? By the looks of the cardinals this morning covered in white they will be gone soon. The sailfin, solaris, and hawkfish have shown no ill signs so far. Tho the sailfin has been going from light color to a very dark color last night so he might be getting stressed.

Either copper or chloroquine phosphate. But if this is Velvet, you probably don't have the time it would take to order/ship CP. If I were you I would go get some copper (Cupramine, Coppersafe, whatever you can find) ASAP, setup a QT (you can use water from the DT to save time), and start treating those fish as soon as you can. Again, if it's Velvet... you probably don't have much time.

 

[BigCity]

I ordered some earlier in the week so I should have some cupramine and test kit waiting for me at home tonight. I'll see what I can fish out and go from there, are all the fish I called out above safe to use copper on (as safe as it can be I guess).

 

[Doogy]

Really sorry for your losses

 

[BigCity]

Thx, pretty much over the shock now, as much as can be, thougth I was doing right by paying extra to have someone hold them for me for 4-6 weeks...guess that backfired.

The tank was about 6 months old and that was the second batch of fish so luckily I didn't have much coral in there that has suffered with the latest cyano outbreak. Still sucks I was pretty much done with the fish I wanted to add too.

 

[snorvich]

Thx, pretty much over the shock now, as much as can be, thougth I was doing right by paying extra to have someone hold them for me for 4-6 weeks...guess that backfired.

FYI. Holding fish in a non-therapeuticly dosed copper system will mask oodinium.

.

 

[Rea17]

FYI. Holding fish in a non-therapeuticly dosed copper system will mask oodinium.

^This

Sorry about your losses It is am important lesson though. The only quarantine you can trust is your own.

 

[HumbleFish]

are all the fish I called out above safe to use copper on (as safe as it can be I guess).

IMO, yes.

thougth I was doing right by paying extra to have someone hold them for me for 4-6 weeks...guess that backfired.

As with so many other things in life, if you want something done right you gotta do it yourself. As snorvich pointed out, odds are the LFS had their copper below treatment levels and that masked the Velvet. As soon as the fish were put in non-medicated water, it was only a matter of time.

 

[BigCity]

Ok, my sailfin, hawkfish, and wrasse are still hanging in there showing no visible signs though the sailfin does seem a bit agitated at times. I do have 2 pajama and threadfin cardinals still alive though they don't look so hot, covered in white especially around the eyes so not expecting them to make it.

Is the procedure for cupramine to treat ich or velvet the same? Going to go ahead and pull these fish and start treatment. Is there a goto sticky or thread for the copper procedure, lengths, etc? Thanks for all the help and support.

 

[HumbleFish]

This is the only sticky on Velvet: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119086

However, snorvich has a very useful blog entry on Velvet here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=290

Basically, you treat with Cupramine for 1 month (same as Ich). Give all the fish a f/w bath before placing them in QT. This should buy you some time; allowing you to raise the Cupramine slowly instead of this being an emergency situation. Ramp it up over 3-4 days, and watch closely for any signs of copper intolerance. I would go fallow in the DT for at least 9-10 weeks, as it is impossible to know for sure whether this is Ich or Velvet you are dealing with. Better safe than sorry.