Ick!!!
- Thread starter Jason Aspley
- Start date
Angela Short
New member
I think lots of folks get FW and SW a little mixed up with treatments. At least I have seen lots of FW advice given for SW Ick and its just not relavent.
No one is picking on ya Ai-reefer...it is just a huge problem with aquarists (ick) and many threads are started on it and everyone just likes to know the facts best we can provide them via our reaserch
.
I am the first to put "I think I read or best I can remember reading about it.." this is what to do or whats happening...Ect. ect... to let folks know I am not 100% sure of my advise if I am not 100% sure
. But the hobby progresses every day and I am not online much anymore and thank goodness needing to read up on diseases much anymore!! Yea!
I gave uninformed advise a few weeks ago telling a guy Flat worm exit will not kill zoa eating nudies based on old information and was proven wrong via new reaserch I had not read. Good info to know and I am glad folks are learning new things every day to combat the diseases and problems we face in this hobby.
But the best preventative for any disease is QT and proactivly treat all fish comming in. Another hot topic (treating before you see a problem) but I like to make sure all new guys are "clean" going in At the very minimum I Freshwater dip everyone if I am feeliong lucky and wanting to gamble!
No one is picking on ya Ai-reefer...it is just a huge problem with aquarists (ick) and many threads are started on it and everyone just likes to know the facts best we can provide them via our reaserch
. I am the first to put "I think I read or best I can remember reading about it.." this is what to do or whats happening...Ect. ect... to let folks know I am not 100% sure of my advise if I am not 100% sure
. But the hobby progresses every day and I am not online much anymore and thank goodness needing to read up on diseases much anymore!! Yea! I gave uninformed advise a few weeks ago telling a guy Flat worm exit will not kill zoa eating nudies based on old information and was proven wrong via new reaserch I had not read. Good info to know and I am glad folks are learning new things every day to combat the diseases and problems we face in this hobby.
But the best preventative for any disease is QT and proactivly treat all fish comming in. Another hot topic (treating before you see a problem) but I like to make sure all new guys are "clean" going in
At the very minimum I Freshwater dip everyone if I am feeliong lucky and wanting to gamble!
ai-reefer
New member
That article was put together with studies that are 15 - 20 years old. You can clearly see where they did not mention genetic variations in the species or use modern methods to show the experiments that were done. No experiments were discuessed in detail in the article. There can be thousands of variations in that particular species with varying life cycles. Thats just a research paper someone wrote, its not the actual study of the disease itself.
Only thing that was recent was the Taxonomic re-assignment.
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waynesworld
Premium Member
ai if you have any recent studies that show anything different the please post a link to them but as I see it and with my experience of having ick free tanks for over 3 years I would think that it is not in all tanks and you can eliminate it. I use to get it and did the separated fish and display and now no ick.
But back to Jasons problem if he is still following this thread. By the look of your fish do you have any coral? If not you could treat your whole tank like Angela posted as I think she has done it a lot more then me and I hope we didn't scare you off by this long thread.:blown: :uzi: :uzi:
But back to Jasons problem if he is still following this thread. By the look of your fish do you have any coral? If not you could treat your whole tank like Angela posted as I think she has done it a lot more then me
and I hope we didn't scare you off by this long thread.:blown: :uzi: :uzi:
Mikeyjer
New member
Marine Ich
Diagnosis and treatment of marine ich.
By Neale Monks, Ph.D.
Life cycle
There are four stages in the marine ich life cycle.
The feeding stage is known as trophont (or trophozoite). As the trophont feeds on tissue fluids, the distinctive white spot forms around the parasite as a cyst.
Once the trophont is mature, the cyst bursts and the free-living protomont emerges. Secondary infections can set in at this stage because of the damage caused to the host fish’s skin. Within a few hours the protomont settles onto a solid object, potentially even wet objects, such as nets, that can be moved between tanks.
Protomonts form capsules and begin dividing, eventually forming hundreds of infective cells known as theronts or tomites. In a tropical marine aquarium, this reproductive stage lasts for about three days.
After the reproductive phase is finished, the capsule bursts, and the theronts swim into the water and seek out new hosts. The theronts will die after a few days if they cannot find a suitable host.
Diagnosis and treatment of marine ich.
By Neale Monks, Ph.D.
Life cycle
There are four stages in the marine ich life cycle.
The feeding stage is known as trophont (or trophozoite). As the trophont feeds on tissue fluids, the distinctive white spot forms around the parasite as a cyst.
Once the trophont is mature, the cyst bursts and the free-living protomont emerges. Secondary infections can set in at this stage because of the damage caused to the host fish’s skin. Within a few hours the protomont settles onto a solid object, potentially even wet objects, such as nets, that can be moved between tanks.
Protomonts form capsules and begin dividing, eventually forming hundreds of infective cells known as theronts or tomites. In a tropical marine aquarium, this reproductive stage lasts for about three days.
After the reproductive phase is finished, the capsule bursts, and the theronts swim into the water and seek out new hosts. The theronts will die after a few days if they cannot find a suitable host.
poolkeeper1
New member
This might be a silly question but, can ich settle on human skin? Like if your arm is in the tank when ich is present? Just wondering.
ai-reefer
New member
What you posted is not a scientific study of the disease. It's just a summary of the life cycle.
A proper article would show the experiment done on the parasite in a controlled setting. It would also discuess the relationship of the changing variables, genetic variance in the species and the parasites effect on fish with specific immune memory to the disease.
What you copied and pasted doesn't mean much. It's definetly not proof for dormancy of the parasite.
sandalscout
New member
ai-reefer, that is quite right, however, the information in the previous article has direct quotes from scientific papers that appear to support this information, is peer-reviewed, etc, etc (I've not cross-referenced any of it, of course). ZERO information with has been posted in this thread to the contrary other than individual opinion. Please link to something, many of us are genuinely interested to read ANYTHING to the contrary.
ai-reefer
New member
None of the articles showed data from experiments. So i will say that at this point i don't know for sure the dormancy length of the parasite. The reason i assumed that they were dormant was because of my personal experiences. The personal experiences of many other contradict what i have experienced. But as i did not find any solid research on the dormancy of the parasite, i will go with my personal experience even if it contradicts the exepriences of others. lol
No one is being hostile or inflammatory here. We are just trying to get the bottom of the issue. There were no personal attacks made on anyone.
A lot of people disagreed with me but none of them were disrespectful in anyway. I'd rather proven wrong that right.
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Fishboy42
Premium Member
They can survive without a host, (I'm a marine biologist
) but, they cannot complete their life-cycle without one, as Cryptocaryon is what's called an obligate parasite. If left without a suitable host for a long period (weeks), it is generally thought that the parasite will no-longer be viable.This paper defines the organism as an obligate parasite, and they were only able to complete the life cycle by using a "surrogate" media consisting of...cultured fish cells.Hobbyists, farmers, lfs owners, wholesalers, etc. have used this feature of its life-cycle in their favor to rid systems of the parasite, which is probably why we find many people suggesting it as a good practice. I have seen a single study that suggest the parasite survives in the interstitial spaces within arthropod skeletons, etc, but I don't find it convincing, as it hasn't been replicated or seen anywhere else that I know of, and of course I conveniently can't find it right now
During the time that the infected system is allowed to run without suitable hosts, the fish are treated to kill the infectious stages of the parasite by using chemical therapies or prolonged hyposaline conditions. etc.
I can't remember the paper exactly, as it's been a while, but I do remember that researchers had difficulty studying this parasite because the cell-lines tend to break-down when kept in closed systems for prolonged periods. During the study, they lost the ciliate cultures after a few generations and found that they were no-longer able to infect naive fish (with no previous exposure). This might suggest that simply letting the parasite run its course for several generations without adding any "new blood" will cause it to die out. I think this is the abstract for that paper
here, but I don't have access to the university journal system anymore, so can't read the whole thing
The paper is mentioned here with the following quote being the interesting part for us:
"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora."
ai-reefer
New member
That's more along the lines of what i was looking for. Thanks for posting that. I will do more research and try to fully understand this thing. I wonder if they can breed fish with natural immunity to the parasite, or use a medication like we would use a vaccine. Would that cause the parasite genes to mutate like a virus would?
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FWIW viruses' don't mutate as a response to vaccines. They mutate because of their makeup, ie......DNA or RNA virus plus a plethora of other things. They can mutate making vaccines not effective but they don't typically mutate in response to the vaccine. Maybe you are getting viruses mixed up with bacteria and acquiring resistance to antibiotics?
Mikeyjer
New member
This is becoming a interesting topic, learned quite a bit actually..... Thanks Fishboy(Matt) for posting that!!!!! ai-reefer, I will get more into details with you later on my personal experience with ich since I've dealt with them multiple times during my 6 years in the hobby.... It's not as bad to me anymore, not like when I first started the hobby.
To the moderators, we were all discussing a topic that we each have our own believes and so on. Only discussion and disagreement. But we all have a common goal is to provide better care for our fish and corals. And no we weren't trying to kill one another! lol
To the moderators, we were all discussing a topic that we each have our own believes and so on. Only discussion and disagreement. But we all have a common goal is to provide better care for our fish and corals. And no we weren't trying to kill one another! lol
Angela Short
New member
Good job moderators for posting the rules because as I was just now reading the thread after a few days not on line I was reading thinking "boy, this thread is going downhill FAST"....and was fully expecting a name calling flame war as I was reading on... Anyone who has been on the boards (any board) can attest that things can go from a good quality discussion to real bad in a hurry. I think the moderators post was great in reminding all of us that new comers can get put off by the downhill , go nowhere unconstructive threads. Thats the #1 reason I left saltwaterfish. c o m's message boards where I first stumbled onto online reef help. Constant name calling, flamming and I was afraid to even ask questions for fear of the "master reefers with 5,000 posts would make fun of me "
The only Dumb question is an unasked one and we need to make everyone feel welcome to ask anything to help make sure they may not make some of the same mistakes we who have been in the hobby longer have made.
I love the info posted and will bookmark this thread to go back and link the articals posted from. I know I have read tons on Ick but can never remember the proper names, terms and all to explain it and sound smart... (Yes I am talking about you Matt) And with as much as Matt, Fishboy has at stake as a fish breeder I would think he definatly has the latest reaserch under his belt.
Back on topic... I tend to lean to the "If fish can live through it long enouph they can beat it theory" Which is a change from my old way of thinking that once you had it you HAD to hypo or Copper or you would only get it again one day. I think that has been proven wrong by the reaserch linked and from personal experiences of fellow reefers.
I have a fish in my system that came from an infected at one time tank. She fed the garlic/metro deal, upped her feedings...and let it just run its course. I was totally against it but in time it went from bad to better, to almost never a cyst to totally no signs for over a year. Granted she did not introduce ANY new fish in this time to add a new strain in or a fish with no aquired immunity so it kinda backs up the stuff fishboy linked.
I "kinda hypoed" them just as a good intention but since they were in the garage all summer they started out at 1.09 and after a few months of forgetting to top off I just let it evaporate to the proper salinity for the display :lol: So needless to say they were in a rather stressful state all summer and it never popped back up. Even after I accidentially poisoned the tank the week before I was going to put them in the display and killed 3 fish after they endured the garage tank all summer ;(. The 2 who lived are still kicken it with no signs and one tang from the infected lot who was at a freinds tank with a wrass never have shown any sign at all.
We learn more every day in this hobby!!
" The only Dumb question is an unasked one and we need to make everyone feel welcome to ask anything to help make sure they may not make some of the same mistakes we who have been in the hobby longer have made.
I love the info posted and will bookmark this thread to go back and link the articals posted from. I know I have read tons on Ick but can never remember the proper names, terms and all to explain it and sound smart... (Yes I am talking about you Matt
) And with as much as Matt, Fishboy has at stake as a fish breeder I would think he definatly has the latest reaserch under his belt. Back on topic... I tend to lean to the "If fish can live through it long enouph they can beat it theory" Which is a change from my old way of thinking that once you had it you HAD to hypo or Copper or you would only get it again one day. I think that has been proven wrong by the reaserch linked and from personal experiences of fellow reefers.
I have a fish in my system that came from an infected at one time tank. She fed the garlic/metro deal, upped her feedings...and let it just run its course. I was totally against it but in time it went from bad to better, to almost never a cyst to totally no signs for over a year. Granted she did not introduce ANY new fish in this time to add a new strain in or a fish with no aquired immunity so it kinda backs up the stuff fishboy linked.
I "kinda hypoed" them just as a good intention but since they were in the garage all summer they started out at 1.09 and after a few months of forgetting to top off I just let it evaporate to the proper salinity for the display :lol: So needless to say they were in a rather stressful state all summer and it never popped back up. Even after I accidentially poisoned the tank the week before I was going to put them in the display and killed 3 fish after they endured the garage tank all summer ;(. The 2 who lived are still kicken it with no signs and one tang from the infected lot who was at a freinds tank with a wrass never have shown any sign at all.
We learn more every day in this hobby!!
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Mikeyjer
New member
Name calling would be too much. But if someone strictly insists on their believes. I would like to see some sort of write up on it. That's what we were trying to do with no response. We are all adults here so we can talk without getting too nasty. We all have a common goal that we are trying to achieve. I type short and direct sometime cause I'm at work on I-phone so can't do long post without typing a long time.
