I'm at a loss!!!

A

Allen77

New member
I've been lerking here for quite some time but about 3 months ago I purchased a biocube 29 that came with 2 clownfish 1 bristlestar several crabs, and snails. When I got it I conserved most all the water even though I later found out the water was salitiy was way off.

Since the initial purchase I have lost 1 clownfish, 1 bristlestar, the original crabs and snails, 4 new snails, 4 new hermit crabs and just recently 2 hardy tequil snails (i'm almost sure they are dead, they fell off the glass and have only moved slightly).

Since I made the purchase I have been visiting CRA getting my water tested, purchasing salt and rodi water bringing my water parameters in line. For about a 2 or 3 week period i even had all the water parameters within range. My water parameters have not been perfect but they were not supposed to be bad enough to cause to much harm. I have been really reluctant to purchase any fish or corals until I was able to at least keep a few snails and crabs alive!!!

I currently have 1 clownfish and the 2 tequil snails (they are probably dead). I have also been overrun with hair algae. Is it better for me to just give the clownfish away remove all the sand and rock, clean the tank and start over or continue to slowly added things to see if they die?
 
You may be able to bring the tank back in shape without going to the extreme.

When you move a tank or do a major rearranging, the tank will go through a minor cycle even if you keep the water, sand, and rocks. If the salinity was way off when you purchased your tank, your livestock must have been stressed. The initial die-off is probably related to the stress from the poor condition and the subsequent big move.

Some snails require careful acclimation. CRA told me that they tended to lose a lot of snails themselves. However, most snails do pretty well with a careful acclimation and a good tank condition.

Hair algae indicates excess nutrients. Algae like nitrate, phosphate, and even ammonia. Since your bio load does not seems to be high, the excess nutrient is probably coming from feeding or the detritus accumulated in sand and rocks. I recommend scraping them off as much as possible first of all. Snails like soft fresh growth better than tough old stuff. If your nitrate and phosphate is somewhat high even with a number of water changes with good RODI water, you may want to add some macroalgae to your tank. If your phosphate is high, you may consider using iron based phosphate remover.

It would be more helpful if you post some water quality parameters.

Tomoko
 
I currently don't have a water test kit because it was recommended that I rely on CRA for accurate parameter testing. That being said here are my water parameters from 10-10-08:

PH: 7.74
kh - Alkalinity: 11
Salinity: 1.025
Calcium: 340
Nitrate: 0
Nitrate: 80

I have since did a 5 gallon water change, added two tequil turbo snails, added about 4 doses of PH+ to increase ph, 2 doses of Reef Complete to raise Calcium.

That last time that the phospate was tested was 8/22/08 and it was 0.
 
If I were in your shoes seeing the present situation, I would treat the tank as if I had just set it up. That means no more additions until you get everything under control and stabilized. Keep everything that's in there. You're probably just continually cycling the tank on accident.
If your nitrate is measuring 80 (I'm assuming that one is the real nitrate, hehe), you can go ahead and ignore pH, alk, calcium, etc for the time being. Getting nitrate to zero (or at least below 10) should be your first concern.
I would guess what is happening is something caused an increase in nitrate, which caused something to die (I'd guess the starfish first). When you added more snails to try and help the problem, they died because of the already elevated nitrate levels. This then caused yet again, more nitrate. Very nasty cycle.
First thing I'd do: get on a strict 5 gallon water change as often as possible. I'd shoot for every other day.
Second, before each water change remove as much hair algae as possible by hand, then siphon out as much as possible during the water change. First target is detritus under, in and on the rocks, second is the algae. You'll never get all of it, but that's not the point.
Third, adjust the lighting schedule. Since you don't have any coral, go with 4-6 hr a day.
And last but not least, if you see a dead snail, or think one is dead, remove it. If he wasn't dead, well that's about $2 down the drain, f he was, you saved your tank from a mini nitrate/phosphate dirty bomb. :)

Some questions-
What is the salinity now?
What temperature is the tank being kept at? Any major fluctuations? (over 2deg./12 hrs)

It's not as bad as it seems, trust me I've heard of a lot worse. Hopefully others will support me on this advise, haha.

You can whip this in no time!
 
80 ppm of nitrate is pretty high although it's not quite lethal, yet. A very high nitrate brings pH down. I do not recommend using any buffer such as pH plus. Your alkalinity is high enough. Adding more of that stuff will add another problem.

Like The0wn4g3 said, back-to-back large water changes (5 to 10 gallons at a time is not too big) will bring the nitrate down and help boost up your calcium as well. That should stabilize your pH as well by removing nitrate and phosphate, both of which are acidic. Do not add more pH plus which will raise your alkalinity to an unfavorable range. Hold off on calcium additives for now as well. Adding too much calcium into the water with high alkalinity can cause a rapid precipitation (looks like a snow storm) and you end up with low alk and low calcium. Your calcium is low right now because your water is not balanced, and your calcium is slowly precipitating on various surfaces.

Tomoko
 
dead snails--you can watch them for six hours to see if they move

OR

sniff them. trust me...you'll know...

good luck--we all went through it at one point :)
 
The0wn4g3:
The salinity is now 1.021 according to my deep six hydrometer (not sure how accurate)
From my occasional looking at the temp I don't believe there to be more than a 2 degree/12 hour variance. The temps stays about 78 degrees.

timrandlerv10:
Then snails had not moved for quite a long time more that 6 hours, so I removed them.


All thanks for the information. It seems like I got caught up in trying to get all my water parameters in line at once. Just ended up buying a lot of chemicals. From the information that you have provided I am going to do the following:

1) On Friday when I can purchase salt water from CRA, complete every other day water changes of 5-10 gallons until nitrates are below 10 preferably 0.
2) Remove as much hair algae and detritus during water changes.
3) Reduce lighting time to 4 hours until hair algae problem is fixed.

Does that sound about right?
Do I need to purchase a test kit or continue to rely on CRA for water testing? If you recommend purchasing one, what brand and where to ensure that the tk is not old?
 
Your new strategy sounds good.

I think you should have your own test kits, at least the basic ones for reef keeping. I recommend that you test your own alkalinity and calcium. It is nice to have a good nitrate test kit as well while you are battling with algae. You will soon be able to tell the condition of your tank/livestock by looking at it, and then you will be checking these parameters only infrequently. I find an inexpensive kH test kit such as API or Hagen would be sufficient for alkalinity although I don't like API's test tube (too skinny). As for testing nitrate, it's good to get a higher grade test kit that allows you to test a low range NO3, such as Salifert or SeaTest. Phosphate test kits seem to be generally inaccurate for the low range we want to test for. I generally don't test for PO4 unless I have a reason to do so (like a sudden algae outbreak or SPS getting drab when all parameters look good.)

Although people say that these swing arm hydrometers are inaccurate, I find most of them to be pretty stable as long as you keep them clean. You can check it against the "properly calibrated" refractometer to figure out an offset/correction value if you'd like to be more accurate. As long as your level is very stable, your livestock should do fine whether the specific gravity is actually at 1.024 or 1.025.

Tomoko
 
Sounds like you're on the right track now!

I'm with Tomoko on the test kits, too. The swing type are fine, just make sure to get it calibrated against a correctly calibrated refractometer. When I started my tank I found out my hydrometer was 3 points higher than the actually, so I just mixed up 1.028 water which was actually 1.024.
Or, you can invest $40 and get your own:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=10490

Let us know this weekend how it's going!
 
One major problem with swing arm hydrometers is small bubbles adhering to the arm. This makes them read higher than they should. When you finish using them you should rinse them with fresh water to remove all the salt water. When a salt crystal dries on the arm it will attract a small bubble the next time you use it. Also if you leave it with water in it, some of the water will be absorbed into the arm and cause an inaccurate reading. When used properly a swing arm hydrometer will give readings accurate enough for what we're doing. I've been using the same one for 9 years. I shoot for 1.024 - 1.026.
 
You can use inexpensive pH test kit like API. You can invest in a pH meter, but you have to calibrate it every month to be accurate. I hardly use my pH meter unless I get inspired to check on the effluent of my calcium reactor or something. It's hard to read a test kit with a color chart (LaMott's color chart is better), but if your alkalinity is good (between 8 to 10), your pH should be right on the mark unless you have an excessive CO2 buildup problem in your house (your house being very airtight with a lot of people and animals living in it plus cooking with gas stove a lot - sounds like mine ;) .)

Tomoko
 
dead snails--you can watch them for six hours to see if they move OR sniff them. trust me...you'll know...
Click to expand...

I bought 2 tequils from CRA and I had one die, well It was a few days before I took it out and OMG I almost lost my cookies from the smell. Being in Madison I can offer to help with water during the week when CRA is closed if needed.
 
Thanks but I won't be changing any water until Friday this time (Got to watch Auburn play tonight). I would like to keep you in mind in the future for during the week water it you don't mind. I will PM you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13604726#post13604726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Allen77
Thanks but I won't be changing any water until Friday this time (Got to watch Auburn play tonight). I would like to keep you in mind in the future for during the week water it you don't mind. I will PM you.
Click to expand...

War Eagle !!
 
Here are my water parameters on Friday when I picked up water.

PH: 7.86
kh - Alkalinity: 13
Salinity: 1.023
Calcium: 340
Nitrate: 0
Nitrate: 0

Surprising....My Nitrates are 0 and I haven't done anything since my last water change. I went ahead and did a 6.5 gallon water change and tried to remove some of the hair algae. I put all of my live rock back in the tank upside down so that everything with hair algae growing on it is on the down side. I put the lights on a timer of 4 hours. CRA gave me tequil snail to replace on of the ones I lost. I removed the back panel on my bc29 to see if this will assist in raising the PH. I'm going to test my Calcium now that I have done a wc and make adjustments as needed. I plan on testing my water wednesday. I will let you guys know what it is looking like.

Plans for the next couple of weeks.
Keep the hair algae at bay.
do a wc in two weeks
hope the one snail and fish stay alive.

Thanks
Allen
 
I just did a nitrate test with my new kit and I get 20ppm, so either the CRA test was not accurate or I have something really raising my nitrates. I doing 3.5 water change now.

Allen
 
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