IM new be nice :-)
- Thread starter Nu2SW
- Start date
Fuge is short for refugium. A refugium is a place where people often grows out macro algae (which is used for nutrient export) and pods.
Refugium:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa041400.htm
Sump:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bcorsettingup/a/aa020298sumps.htm
Minh
Refugium:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa041400.htm
Sump:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bcorsettingup/a/aa020298sumps.htm
Minh
dots
Premium Member
So you have your biological and mechanical mechanisms for nutrient export in a fish tank. Mechanical being a filter Biological is your bacteria that has "cycled" the amonia into nitrate which is then taken out in water changes. Or, the nitrates and phosphates are taken up by macro algae that live in another sub-tank located on the back as a hang on unit or underneath in a smaller tank, say 10gals or so. Inside this refugium, you may house live rock and sand to continue the biological cycle and possibly create a savehaven for live foods such as copepods or amphipods. At least thats the way I understand them.
A sump is a big box of water that houses filters, heaters, skimmers, reactors and gets them out of the main tank.
And welcome aboard!!!
A sump is a big box of water that houses filters, heaters, skimmers, reactors and gets them out of the main tank.
And welcome aboard!!!
Nu2SW
New member
WoW thanks for the fast response. I have a 50g tank
that I just started and am in the process of cycling "picking up some damsels from O St. tonight."
Would you guys recommend that for a 50g tank. i have a spare 10g tank sitting that i use to use for FW,which i was gonna use for a quarantine tank, but i can pick up another tank.
I met a nice lady and i believe her daughter or daughters at O ST yesterday, they were really nice and helpful. They told me about mars, i might take a trip out but i work until 6:30 pm in elk grove at apple computers, so id be a lil late, how late does the meetings run?
:strooper:
that I just started and am in the process of cycling "picking up some damsels from O St. tonight."
Would you guys recommend that for a 50g tank. i have a spare 10g tank sitting that i use to use for FW,which i was gonna use for a quarantine tank, but i can pick up another tank.
I met a nice lady and i believe her daughter or daughters at O ST yesterday, they were really nice and helpful. They told me about mars, i might take a trip out but i work until 6:30 pm in elk grove at apple computers, so id be a lil late, how late does the meetings run?
:strooper:
Don't use damsels for cycling. Just be patient and your tank will cycle on it's own. Also - only add damsel if you plan on keeping them. Damsels can be pretty aggressive, and catching them is no fun at all.
Are you asking for what size we recommend for a refugium/sump? Just for size comparison - I have a 120 gallon tank, and my sump is 40G. Just my opinion, but I probably would have sump/refugium that is any smaller than 20G for your 50G. Looking at your tank - it doesn't appear that the tank is reef ready. In this case, you will need an overflow box or have the tank drilled.
The meeting usually runs until 9ish. The place does get crowded fast though. Join us at the meeting. We usually have really good speakers at our meeting.
Are you asking for what size we recommend for a refugium/sump? Just for size comparison - I have a 120 gallon tank, and my sump is 40G. Just my opinion, but I probably would have sump/refugium that is any smaller than 20G for your 50G. Looking at your tank - it doesn't appear that the tank is reef ready. In this case, you will need an overflow box or have the tank drilled.
The meeting usually runs until 9ish. The place does get crowded fast though. Join us at the meeting. We usually have really good speakers at our meeting.
Justin74
New member
Let me the first to sound off the ol'mantra
"Nothing Good Happens Fast!"
Be patient,you came here right off the bat in you venture so in my opinion your already ahead of the game.Good choice.There some great people who idle here as well as the other boards with good advice.My 2 cents?Read up as much as you possibly can here on anything that you plan to buy.Equipment,and especially any and all animals.That said Welcome to the hobby,you stick around your gonna love it!!
-Justin
Nu2SW
New member
hmmm so a aoverflow box, isnt that have to do with the filter. Like if your using a canister type filter? from reading up on it , thats what it kinda seems like to me.
ya its a fowlr.... I'd like to do a reef tank but I wanna take it one step at a time and not just dive in.
Ive had a few people tell me to add some damsels to help cycle the tank.
Justin Thanks , Im glad to get my feet wet in the SW world. Ive already spent a lot of money, so my time is to be invested. SW fish are just jaw dropping, Ive always liked SW fish for there colors are just insane.
Its not an eclipse, I guess you can say its customer built. I got the tank from a LFS and got the hoods and stand. Its a glass tank with 2 24 inch hoods, a penguin 400 double bio wheel filer, 200w heater and a bak-ak 2 protien skimmer.
I will be getting some type of powerhead rated at about 200gph, and if it benefits me for my setup, i will build an overflow box.
Hope im on the right track.
ya its a fowlr.... I'd like to do a reef tank but I wanna take it one step at a time and not just dive in.
Ive had a few people tell me to add some damsels to help cycle the tank.
Justin Thanks , Im glad to get my feet wet in the SW world. Ive already spent a lot of money, so my time is to be invested. SW fish are just jaw dropping, Ive always liked SW fish for there colors are just insane.
Its not an eclipse, I guess you can say its customer built. I got the tank from a LFS and got the hoods and stand. Its a glass tank with 2 24 inch hoods, a penguin 400 double bio wheel filer, 200w heater and a bak-ak 2 protien skimmer.
I will be getting some type of powerhead rated at about 200gph, and if it benefits me for my setup, i will build an overflow box.
Hope im on the right track.
Justin74
New member
Some sort of overflow is ideal.Along with a good powerhead(I would highly suggest a few seio pumps or at the very least a few maxijets(1200's) for your tank) an overflow will help surface skim nutrients off the surface of your water which inturn will help with gas exchange improving your nitrogen cycle.The extra movement will better replicate there natural environment and also will help suspend particulates for filtration.
Depending what kind of habitat you wish to emulate will dictate how much flow should be used.With a soft coral reef Id strive for at least 20X your tanks volume per hour so with a 50gallon Id shoot for at least 1000gph worth of flow. This can be in combination with your return pump from your overflow and sump along with a few in tank powerheads; may seem like alot but pales in comparison to a stony reef tank which 60X the tanks turnover rate per hour is often suggested. Hope that helps.
-Justin
Depending what kind of habitat you wish to emulate will dictate how much flow should be used.With a soft coral reef Id strive for at least 20X your tanks volume per hour so with a 50gallon Id shoot for at least 1000gph worth of flow. This can be in combination with your return pump from your overflow and sump along with a few in tank powerheads; may seem like alot but pales in comparison to a stony reef tank which 60X the tanks turnover rate per hour is often suggested. Hope that helps.
-Justin
thereefgeek
New member
A couple observations:
First, DON'T use damsels to cycle your tank. They're cute little fishes that grow up to be big, ugly, aggressive, territorial pains in the butt. This sounds like a joke, but you'd be better off urinating in the tank to kick start the amonia cycle (well, actually it is a joke, but that's what the fish are for). Damsels being the first fish in a tank will establish territory and harass anything else you add later. Clownfish are a member of the damsel family and actually quite durable when it comes to new setups. Clowns are also the bread and butter of the saltwater hobby. Everyone has some in their tank but they can also be aggressive, they're just nicer to look at. If you want to seed your sandbed with bacteria, get a couple cups of sand from someone who already has an established tank to inoculate your sandbed and add a little flake food to get the bacteria and critters growing and multiplying.
Speaking of sandbed, that crushed coral gravel looks a little deep and probably too coarse. I personally don't recommend gravel because it accumulates detritus and debris too easily and you end up vacuuming it all the time to keep it looking nice. Vacuuming ends up disturbing too much of the bacteria colonies and the tank continues to go through these little up & down "mini-cycles" over and over. I'd recommend 2" of a fine grade aragonite sand (0.5-1.5mm), and then leave it alone when you do tank maintenance. The sandbed shouldn't be super deep and you should disturb it as little as possible. I haven't vacuumed my sandbed in over a year and it's teeming with microscopic worms, brittle stars, copepods and live mysid shrimp. All these little critters are what basicly eat fish poop and allow me to be lazy instead of vacuuming my sandbed all the time. Click on my photo gallery for some pics of a clean white sandbed.
Some of those rocks look like they may have been recycled from a freshwater tank. If it didn't come from the ocean, you shouldn't use it for substrate. WAIT, let me correct that because some lava rock and silica sand comes from the ocean. Only use aragonite and calcium carbonate substrates (but not oyster shells) because over time any substrate will disolve slightly. With calcium based substrates this helps buffer the water by keeping the pH, Ca, and alkalinity where it's supposed to be. Other substrates can release trace elements like into the water like phosphates and silicates and promote undesirable diatom and algae growth.
Don't hesitate to ask questions here. We're a club of about 100+ people who have all made huge mistakes and we all can offer advice so you won't have to make the same ones we did. If you can make it out to the meetings that's great too. We usually have an informative guest speaker every month (but no meeting in April) and we meet the 3rd Friday starting at around 7 or 7:30. Our website is www.marineaquarist.org and you can find the map, usually the meeting topic and other helpful info in the newsletter archives. Check it out and I hope to meet you soon. Welcome to the obsession...er I mean hobby.
First, DON'T use damsels to cycle your tank. They're cute little fishes that grow up to be big, ugly, aggressive, territorial pains in the butt. This sounds like a joke, but you'd be better off urinating in the tank to kick start the amonia cycle (well, actually it is a joke, but that's what the fish are for). Damsels being the first fish in a tank will establish territory and harass anything else you add later. Clownfish are a member of the damsel family and actually quite durable when it comes to new setups. Clowns are also the bread and butter of the saltwater hobby. Everyone has some in their tank but they can also be aggressive, they're just nicer to look at. If you want to seed your sandbed with bacteria, get a couple cups of sand from someone who already has an established tank to inoculate your sandbed and add a little flake food to get the bacteria and critters growing and multiplying.
Speaking of sandbed, that crushed coral gravel looks a little deep and probably too coarse. I personally don't recommend gravel because it accumulates detritus and debris too easily and you end up vacuuming it all the time to keep it looking nice. Vacuuming ends up disturbing too much of the bacteria colonies and the tank continues to go through these little up & down "mini-cycles" over and over. I'd recommend 2" of a fine grade aragonite sand (0.5-1.5mm), and then leave it alone when you do tank maintenance. The sandbed shouldn't be super deep and you should disturb it as little as possible. I haven't vacuumed my sandbed in over a year and it's teeming with microscopic worms, brittle stars, copepods and live mysid shrimp. All these little critters are what basicly eat fish poop and allow me to be lazy instead of vacuuming my sandbed all the time. Click on my photo gallery for some pics of a clean white sandbed.
Some of those rocks look like they may have been recycled from a freshwater tank. If it didn't come from the ocean, you shouldn't use it for substrate. WAIT, let me correct that because some lava rock and silica sand comes from the ocean. Only use aragonite and calcium carbonate substrates (but not oyster shells) because over time any substrate will disolve slightly. With calcium based substrates this helps buffer the water by keeping the pH, Ca, and alkalinity where it's supposed to be. Other substrates can release trace elements like into the water like phosphates and silicates and promote undesirable diatom and algae growth.
Don't hesitate to ask questions here. We're a club of about 100+ people who have all made huge mistakes and we all can offer advice so you won't have to make the same ones we did. If you can make it out to the meetings that's great too. We usually have an informative guest speaker every month (but no meeting in April) and we meet the 3rd Friday starting at around 7 or 7:30. Our website is www.marineaquarist.org and you can find the map, usually the meeting topic and other helpful info in the newsletter archives. Check it out and I hope to meet you soon. Welcome to the obsession...er I mean hobby.
Nu2SW
New member
the crushed coral, is high up front and lower in the middle and higher in the back. I got 50 pounds when its all even its about 2 inches worth of coverage. well I already got the coral, and dont have the extra money to go and get sand,especially 50 or more pounds because i got everything else already. I dont miind cleaning the gravel,but i was thinking about that if it would make it go thru like other mini cycles. I guess ill just have to roll with it and see what happens.
thereefgeek
New member
I understad it's a lot to take in all at once starting up in the salt water hobby. Just words of caution to be careful who and which fish stores you ask advice from. Most will just sell you a lot of junk you don't need (I've still got boxes of crap in the garage that I'll never use again).
Nu2SW
New member
yeah i had a bad experience with exotic on florin, never going there again.
I go to O street, they are really nice. She was one of the few people that told me i could use damsels to help cycle my tank, and if i wanted I could take them back to her when its ready and get some other fish. Also a buddy of mine who owned a pet store also said the same thing. But everyone always has different opinions and all, but they are all valid and thank you.
Now, onto live sand. Can or Can I not keep the coral, since it is a fowlr I went with crushed coral, But when i want to go say with reef, Can i convert a fowlr to a reef, by takin out the coral and adding live sand? or would that be too drastic?
I go to O street, they are really nice. She was one of the few people that told me i could use damsels to help cycle my tank, and if i wanted I could take them back to her when its ready and get some other fish. Also a buddy of mine who owned a pet store also said the same thing. But everyone always has different opinions and all, but they are all valid and thank you.
Now, onto live sand. Can or Can I not keep the coral, since it is a fowlr I went with crushed coral, But when i want to go say with reef, Can i convert a fowlr to a reef, by takin out the coral and adding live sand? or would that be too drastic?
sagitariuscbc
Premium Member
shawn!~)
Just a word of advice. This hobby grows and changes constantly. Every year there is new information to help out tanks survive better and longer. When I started in this hobby 16 years ago, they recommended using damsels to cycle the tank, using rocks or crushed coral and undergravel filters. The last one is never used for saltwater anymore, atleast with reefs and I'm not sure why this damsel theory has never disapated.
If it was the owner that told you you could bring the fish back then great, but if not I wouldn't trust that you will be able to. You also never know if they will survive the cycle and if they don't then you are out even more money. Also, they are very hard to catch and if you are setting up your rockwork now you will probably have to tear it all down to catch the little buggers.
Good luck,
Rian
If it was the owner that told you you could bring the fish back then great, but if not I wouldn't trust that you will be able to. You also never know if they will survive the cycle and if they don't then you are out even more money. Also, they are very hard to catch and if you are setting up your rockwork now you will probably have to tear it all down to catch the little buggers.
Good luck,
Rian
My first piece of advice I could give is to listen to TheReefGeek. He knows what he's talking about especially about removing the crushed coral substrate. I inherited my tank from someone and it came with crushed coral and TheReefGeek told me the same thing. I waited a while before doing it because I knew it would be a huge job. I did the job about 2 weeks ago and am really happy that I have it over with before really stocking my tank up. It would be best for you to do it now before you really put alot of livestock in the tank.
As for the process, the only thing I can suggest which I wish I would have done is to remove all the water from the tank before scooping out the CC substrate or else you will cloud up the water and you can't see anything. Not to mention it will stay clouded for a while depending on the amount of filtration and circulation you have.
thereefgeek
New member
Thanks for the props arson. As for the damsels, the reason I wouldn't put them in a tank is like Rian said: They're a HUGE pain to catch once they're in there and you want to add more peaceful fish (ask me about teeny little fish hooks some other time).
Substrate is exaclty that, the very first thing that goes in the tank. If you decide you don't like it, everything on top of it usually (mostly) needs to be removed before you can change it.
Live sand is exactly that. It's alive; the dry stuff in bins isn't. I've had success with the bags of Bio-Active Live sand (packed in liquid). I set up a 10 gallon Nano 5-6 years ago with a bag of that stuff when it first came out and it worked like a charm. I added fish the next day (not damsels). It's even the correct grain size (in my experience), and looks pretty good in the tank. You could fill your tank with about 2" of the dry stuff and seed it with a bag of the Bio-Active and probably add fish within a week.
Save the crushed coral. Get yourself a couple of those orange Home Depot buckets and save it for something later. GARF.ORG has some great recipies on making your own "Aragocrete" sculptures out of sand, crushed coral and cement (as well as a lot of other useful info). They also sell coral frags when your tank is ready for that (but take your time before you start adding coral).
Starting out with a Fish Only tank is cool, but I guarantee you'll want to be keeping corals soon enough. Be sure to research any fish you add ahead of time because many of the pretty fish we love to have in our homes also like to munch on coral. Everything in the ocean eats something else that lives in the ocean. Just remember that in a closed system things may not always get along with something else you want to keep. Don't hesitate to ask questions here. If Reef Central had been around 10 years ago, I might not have made the mistakes (and killed the animals) that I did.
Substrate is exaclty that, the very first thing that goes in the tank. If you decide you don't like it, everything on top of it usually (mostly) needs to be removed before you can change it.
Live sand is exactly that. It's alive; the dry stuff in bins isn't. I've had success with the bags of Bio-Active Live sand (packed in liquid). I set up a 10 gallon Nano 5-6 years ago with a bag of that stuff when it first came out and it worked like a charm. I added fish the next day (not damsels). It's even the correct grain size (in my experience), and looks pretty good in the tank. You could fill your tank with about 2" of the dry stuff and seed it with a bag of the Bio-Active and probably add fish within a week.
Save the crushed coral. Get yourself a couple of those orange Home Depot buckets and save it for something later. GARF.ORG has some great recipies on making your own "Aragocrete" sculptures out of sand, crushed coral and cement (as well as a lot of other useful info). They also sell coral frags when your tank is ready for that (but take your time before you start adding coral).
Starting out with a Fish Only tank is cool, but I guarantee you'll want to be keeping corals soon enough. Be sure to research any fish you add ahead of time because many of the pretty fish we love to have in our homes also like to munch on coral. Everything in the ocean eats something else that lives in the ocean. Just remember that in a closed system things may not always get along with something else you want to keep. Don't hesitate to ask questions here. If Reef Central had been around 10 years ago, I might not have made the mistakes (and killed the animals) that I did.
Nu2SW
New member
thanks rich advice taken. I do want to have corals, the thing is right now I dont have the lighting for it, The lights i have or fluorescent, which is why i wanna get some power compacts, iI've heard those are really good, but man those are expensive, $300.So i think i will get some sand this weekend and add it.
curious on lighting, buying say a hanging lamp ,the ones you see like in some over reef tanks where they hang over the tank and are like 48 inches in length. Can u use those and buy lamps for them.??
Just wanna say thanks again for the info, You guys are great.
If I wanna come out to a meeting, are like first ones free for prospective members.? hows that work?
Justin74
New member
To answer your question,ya you can do it at a later time,BUT,its highly recommend to do it within fractions at a time over time.Otherwise a sudden change of substrate will ultimately wipe out almost everything that is alive in your tank. That process is even more of pain because 1.It takes longer,2.You still have to cure the live sand before putting it in.3.You still run a serious risk to hurting and/or killing some animals by disturbing any "dead" pockets and introducing ammonia,which inturn can really put you square 1 of your introduction to the hobby
My advice,get'r done while the gettins good.Nothing will bum you out more and make you curse this hobby than starting your day off to see your tankmates floating at the top..
Dry aragonite sand are reasonably priced to where you could just seed it with one bag of bio sand, or cheaper than that like Rich said to just innoculate it with a scoop of a fellow reefers sand.
-Justin
My advice,get'r done while the gettins good.Nothing will bum you out more and make you curse this hobby than starting your day off to see your tankmates floating at the top..
Dry aragonite sand are reasonably priced to where you could just seed it with one bag of bio sand, or cheaper than that like Rich said to just innoculate it with a scoop of a fellow reefers sand.
-Justin
