Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

[JennM]

I don't get it, Race. Your subject line said, "Improve the hobby by demanding a livestock guarantee". It didn't specify that it only applied to etail, in fact the way I read it it implied that whether one buys from etail or retail they should expect and demand a guarantee.

Race Wrote (in the initial post in this thread):

Here is what I suggest. When it comes time to purchase your fish and coral, only buy from an Etailer or Retailer who provides you with a written and clear 14 day guarantee. If they do not understand, please educate them. Talk at your reef clubs etc to help encourage this new and valuable concept. Demand it.

You brought retail into it yourself

Jenn

 

[SuAsati]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10935197#post10935197 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
If the end "product" to the hobbyist consumer is same, which I AGREE it is at least in MY retail store.

Then why not the same guarantee?

In other words, if at the time of sale to the consumer the livestock is equal ( through selection and care), and I AGREE it is--- then why not the same guarantee??? What am I missing?

I think that I am hearing a select few who are not in favor of offering their customers a decent guarantee.

Dr. Foster, first I have to tell you I am extremly honored by the warranty you give... I am sure everyone else is.....

But the additional risks involved from online purchase for the consumer listed below warrants those extra days.....

1) more shipping stress, ( few hrs v/s several hrs / delays/ mishandling)
2) unseen product... ( two things, consumer don't know if the fish is skinny or fat, and if it will eat after shipping ),
I have had fish come in with abrassions and bacterial infections whose health and survivability I cannot say for several days, which I wouldn't have purchased from a LFS.


From the LFS side of the garantee, it increases their bottomline, and inturn will increase the price of their product, which inturn will decrease their sales..... Their customer base is much less than the online stores, they only reach to locals, often times just in the short vicinity, I hardly go past 10-15 miles on a regular basis to shop..... As much as we all like to say we are in it for the hobby most LFS are business and they have to make business decisions no matter how much passion they have for the hobby.

While I and most would love, 14day garantee from LFS, I would not hold it against them for not doing that, a couple of days would tell me if the fish is ok or not..... and I always have the time to observer the fish as long as I want, ofcourse risking to lose it to another customer.
And I personally wouldn't claim a refund for a death of a wrasse if it jumps out of my tank on day 13, even from an online vendor, which LA probably would give me judging from my recent experience.... cause that is just not ethical...

 

[aquaticvet1]

My point is this.

I am not suggesting that etail or retail sells better or worse fish. I have been innately clear on that, ad nauseam really. Posts seem to debate that and there is no debate--- both CAN sell great livestock if certain protocols are followed.

Who wants to represent quality control to the hobbyist by offering them a real and substantial guarantee??? The Fosters, Smiths and Brenners to name a few.

Who wants this caring attitude to move on up to the wholesale level? The Fosters, Smiths and Brenners to name a few. All three retailers and etailers.

The concept is already in practice, is working, is spreading and needs continued support. I ask the hobbyist to help,--- plain and simple.

We can debate it until we die but my message is the same. Avoid livestock that is not guaranteed. If the hobby does not demand excellence then there will be no progress.

I am doing my part and so are others and I hope the hobbyists can appreciate it.

 

[JennM]

Again SuAsati, well said. Race argues that there is less stress on a fish due to dropshipping, than a rest stop at an LFS but I suppose one could argue it either way. I happen to agree with you though. A rested, eating fish from a LFS that you have had the chance to observe for several days to a week or more is a better risk to the consumer.

You have the opportunity of seeing how it behaves with other fish, you can inspect it for imperfections and/or illness. You can decide if its appearance appeals to you (I had a customer decline to buy a special order wrasse because he was dissatisfied with the colour - no worries, it sold to another customer a few days later). You can decide if its current size is appropriate. These are all variables that you don't get with online.

A LFS could raise their prices to match Race's (including a bit for shipping, since it is a *possibility* that etailers in general round up their shipping). Would that benefit the consumer? I don't think so.

It's not right that all patrons of a shop pay more for the errors of those whose caretaking habits end up in the fish's death. Most deaths after purchase can be attributed to something - improper acclimation, poor water quality etc. If a customer bought from more than one entity and one from another entity came in sick and caused illness to all the fish - things like that are out of a seller's control.

Issues like diet usually take longer than 14 days to present a problem.

Like I said before - it's just a different approach. As in many things in this hobby, there is often more than one way to accomplish the same goal.

While I do believe that most customers are honest, there's quite a discussion going on elsewhere about the few dishonest customers that can and will take advantage of lengthy guarantees and such. That ends up costing everyone as well. Some of us aren't willing to punish the rest to that end.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Then do not provide " the guarantee"----that is your right. No argument here.

 

[ralphie16]

Personally, I no longer purchase from any fish seller (online or brick & mortar) without a guarantee. I told me local fish store's owner this when I went to his store yesterday and he was not very happy about it. We were both very cordial to each other during the discussion since I have known him for many many years and have spend literally thousands at his store. We ended the discussion with him agreeing to at least consider it for the future but personally I don't think he will change anything. But at least he heard what I require in order to remain a loyal customer to his establishment.

 

[aquaticvet1]

ralphie,
Thank you and I promise it will change. I have a long history in the pharmacy and prescription drug trade. We all remember the days when veterinarians would not write prescriptions for pets and you had to purchase the medication from them, at an oftentimes inflated price.
I and others spent countless hours with the FDA, USDA, EPA, DEA, veterinary associations, and individual veterinarians to get where we are today. It took 21 years but today an overwhelming majority of veterinarians provide prescriptions so that pet owners have a choice. The veterinary profession survived!!!------- The pet owners had to step up and let the veterinarians know they had options and would look to them if need be. No victory, just progress.

This industry will not take 21 years but it will not happen overnight either. I am sure your LFS heard your message. Thank you for being polite.

I promise the guarantee concept will gain momentum and I will not leave the industry until it does, I enjoy the hobby too much.

At this point in my life I am not in it to profit but rather to be a part of a positive industry initiative. I think I have found it, there is proof right here on this board.

Thanks, Race

 

[nosferatu51]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10907539#post10907539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SlowCobra
In fact there is a post just a few down from this that I posted a... well... a diatribe of sorts about someone basically harassing LA about when he would get his replacement EXPERT ONLY HARD TO COME BY fish.

As was previously mentioned too many people have the throw away mentality, after all "it's only a fish".

In my opinion this creates a catch 22 situation. Improperly educated people buy fish from LiveAquaria. The problem lies in that there is no responsibility for THEIR actions. If they are to blame for the death of what was otherwise a perfectly healthy fish upon leaving the LA distributor...well it doesn't cost them anything to replace. Perhaps with the next one they will get lucky and it will endure the stress and survive.

It's a no win situation for anyone willing to offer that 14 day guarantee.
[/B]

That "diatribe" was aimed towards me.
Seriously? What is your problem? You come here, insult me, and make me the poster child of your "uneducated consumer" without knowing anything about me or the situation. I was merely trying to understand why the estimated delivery time changed by nearly a month, that's not that difficult to understand. Additionally, I was also trying to get an estimate of when I could expect this EXPERT AND DIFFICULT TO CARE FOR fish so that I could have every preparation ready for him when he arrived. In case you didn't notice, I at one point requested that the fish's delivery be held back a few days as I was going out of town and preferred to be able to watch the fish for his first few days in the tank. I also made every effort to attend to the 1st fish (in fact, spent the 1st 12 hours almost exclusively involved in the care of this obviously sick fish) who was already in poor condition when he arrived. My assumption is that he was roughed up by FedEx (surprise given your "disappointing" shipment wouldn't you think? :rolleye1: ) and as a result became stressed to a point where his overnight environment became unhealthy.
As a matter of fact, I am one of the more respected local reefers here and one whom the local store owners respect and will order things that they usually would refuse to carry because they understand it will be properly cared for. So please, next time you decide to run YOUR uneducated mouth (solely because you called me an uneducated consumer) do yourself a favor and think about it instead.

On topic:
I agree that the guarantee represents a good contract between seller and consumer. I know that the Diver's Den items I receive will be of the highest quality and in the best health they can be. This is because of A) the reputation of DFS and B) the fact that this guarantee represents a mentality that they care for and stand behind their product. Therefore I am more likely to order any difficult to care for species from DFS as I know they will arrive in the best possible condition and this gives them the best possible chance of survival. It is heartbreaking to unbox a fish and find it dead or near death, but it would be even more so if you knew that that fish wasn't even given a healthy chance.

 

[aquaticvet1]

What we are witnessing is really the inherent reality of the industry.

Here we have excellent hobbyists sent livestock cared for by Kevin Kohen an industry icon, and still mortality results. Many reasons can contribute but the most likely is shipping and handling. Shipping kills livestock whether it is shipped to Kevin, a wholesaler, a LFS or it goes directly to the hobbyist. The stress can be unbearable and mortal.

I want to sincerely apologize to all involved as mortality sickens me as well. In fact I hate it--- but this forum is the place to discuss it---- it is reality.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread at least I do get a piece of mind knowing that I did not take someone's money and just say "oh well it is your problem".

It is MY problem and the very least I can do is honor my guarantee and give your money back--- and I will.

I am sorry-Race

 

[pupfish]

Way back in ancient times (the 80's) I worked in a marine/FW LFS. The mantra was "Shop LFS!". I don't share that view anymore. Almost every fish I have purchased locally (at several stores) were held in either copper-treated water or at severe hyposalinity. We didn't do that where we worked, nor were we on inline circulation systems. Many LFS owners would call that stone-age thinking, but we QT'd new arrivals and we sold fish in non-coppered, non-medicated water at avg salinity. Yeah, QM probably has inline systems (where a # of tanks share the same water circulating through them - this increases the chances of contagions spreading), but I'm betting that QM turns stock over so quickly, livestock aren't in the facility long enough to create disease outbreaks.

Sadly, I can't say the same for LFS' tanks. I've only dropped $$ countless times on LFS fish that looked perfectly healthy in dealer's tanks only to find them diseased in QT (sometimes even while acclimating). I compare that to liveaquaria and its no contest. Overall, the fish are in better shape. If most LFS had to offer guarantees right now, they would be crushed. And it mostly has to do with pathogen control. What a shame.

 

[honda2sk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10939271#post10939271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
Many reasons can contribute but the most likely is shipping and handling. Shipping kills livestock

Since we are talking about improving the industry as a whole by offering a guarantee on livestock thus forcing every link in the chain to improve its handling and care of the livestock, how can we improve this final stage of shipping to the end consumer? I know the private companies are used to send the livestock mean no harm to the fish, but nevertheless their care is an essential part of the whole process. what are some option that can be explored on how to improve this last portion in the chain?

 

[nosferatu51]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10939271#post10939271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
It is MY problem and the very least I can do is honor my guarantee and give your money back--- and I will.

I am sorry-Race

I am unsure of whether this was a generalized comment or directed at me, but rest assured that your staff has handled the situation with the utmost respect and professionalism. I could not be happier with the situation given the circumstances that caused it. Whenever people ask for an example of good customer service, you are always the example I use.

While I agree with some of the posts here that the guarantee is almost a necessity for consumer confidence given the added risks of buying online (shipping AFTER the purchase and buying sight unseen... with the exception of the Diver's Den), I also believe that it illustrates a commitment to the animals in your care as well. I have seen numerous examples where you/your staff demonstrated an implicit care for your fish. For instance, I had a shipment delayed due to potentially bad weather (I had no problem with this and respected it), I have received calls from people with the specialized knowledge of particular animals so that I could be better informed of their care, etc. To me, this is going above and beyond expectations for a "faceless" organization, but it is an effort that shows that you care about the animals you sell and want them to be given the best possible chance of survival. I believe the guarantee is just a natural extension of that mentality in addition to the peace of mind it brings the consumer. If nothing else, having such a guarantee almost ensures that you must send out healthy livestock or the rate of "returns" would be so high that it could not be financially viable.
I have the benefit of having an LFS that is very knowledgeable and respectful of their animals as well (he is in the process of becoming MAC certified) so I never seem to have the LFS "horror stories" to relate to. Thus, I can only compare you to what I believe is a very well-run local operation and I believe that you at the very least meet those standards and often exceed them when it comes to concern for your animals and your policies concerning them.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10939882#post10939882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by honda2sk
Since we are talking about improving the industry as a whole by offering a guarantee on livestock thus forcing every link in the chain to improve its handling and care of the livestock, how can we improve this final stage of shipping to the end consumer? I know the private companies are used to send the livestock mean no harm to the fish, but nevertheless their care is an essential part of the whole process. what are some option that can be explored on how to improve this last portion in the chain?

I agree completely. Seeing a fish arrive in a bad state when I know (given your policies) that he was not packaged that way is disheartening to say the least. I have seen the way that UPS, FedEx and its ilk treats packages that say fragile on them and cringe in horror at the thought of them potentially doing that to a box that says live animals on the outside. I have no answers to this dilemma, but I believe it is a significant hurdle for any etailer of live animals.

 

[JennM]

nosferatu51, did you ever receive a replacement achilles?

 

[jtlafreniere]

JennM - Would you have replaced the achilles?

 

[aquaticvet1]

I agree that shipping is a significant hurdle to overcome.

Livestock is moved from collector to holding station, aired or freighted from exporter to importer, perhaps again to a distributor then to a customer (if dropshipped) OR to Kevin ( Divers Den ) and the LFS and now the specimen still has to get home. This is the minimum, put a couple more moves among wholesalers or distributors and it gets worse. Remember that from Wisconsin, Kevin also ships to LFS . We are a distributor in a sense. Here is yet another unforeseen move. This is what kills livestock. I do not know the overall industry mortality but just mine is about 4.7%, including inbound, in house and outbound through the 14 day guarantee. That is too high IMO.

I think this is why people wonder if we should have a MO business at all. And that is a good wonder and one which we must be honest about. I am questioned about it constantly during interviews. I think that at some point we may have governmental intervention just as we have in the dog and cat breeding and milling world. USDA, AVMA , DNR ( already involved and Kevin Kohen represents you one the board ). I think it will happen and they will "police" facilities such as mine and the LFS for standards. Good or bad ? I will probably opt to work with them as it appears that we may need standards. Perhaps I will even be the veterinarian in charge of setting the standards and protocol enforcement . If we have to have it, better me than someone else. I am trying to help lead the industry through this.

Again, Kevin sits on the Natural Resource Board in Wisconsin and they are very concerned about disease spread, invasive species and the interstate and intrastate shipment of MO. It is coming folks and Kevin Kohen is your only hope. If you need a reason to support him, here it is. Veterinarians are also involved but to date only with wild fish. The fish have to be inspected by a state veterinarian before they can cross state lines. Why not all freshwater fish especially now that MO are showing up in lakes and streams? Who is going to answer that ? Right now Kevin Kohen is your only voice. These issues are being discussed now.

Switching gears, in my experience Fed Ex has the lowest mortality of any method that we have utilized to get livestock from Wholesaler or distributor. They have their faults. That may vary by region, airport size etc. As far as packaging Kevin has worked extensively on that utilizing different flutings, bubble wraps, heat packs etc and that is ongoing with new options ( tech advancements ) all the time. At times it appears we do not do our job well in the physical pack end, that must be improved.

The fact that I and others guarantee fish is at least a financial incentive to do better but it must be pushed up the line. Not the total answer by any means but at least in my own business, it is a step from doing nothing. Status Quo will not cut it for the future.

If given a choice, do not buy livestock without a guarantee and make the system step up. We did it in the prescription drug trade and it can be done here too, much easier.

I will be mostly off the boards today. Thank you everyone for the dialogue. Please keep it civil and this is not Retail vs. Etail and who is best.It is about keeping our hobby alive.

 

[JennM]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10941713#post10941713 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtlafreniere
JennM - Would you have replaced the achilles?

Nope. I likely wouldn't have brought in an achilles in the first place. Most of what I carry is easy-care as that's what my customers are looking for.

I can and will special order more delicate creatures for those hobbyists who feel they can care for one, have an appropriate tank and experience.

In 5 years, nobody has asked me to order one, except for a few noobs with 55-g tanks, and I talk them out of it.

Jenn

 

[SuAsati]

Race,
How do you guys get fedex to ship live animals, their agreement clearly states no live fish unless it is a B2B shipment....

 

[JennM]

For what it's worth, there's a conversation on another board, that I'm participating in.

Hobbyist bought a $60 euphyllia that turns out to have brown jelly. He was told how to frag and disinfect the coral, removing the infected head and hopefully saving the others.

He's got a 5-day guarantee on the piece, so rather than try to salvage the animal, he's waiting overnight and returning the coral to the LFS today.

He was told by the LFS if he fragged it to try to save it it would void the guarantee. Naturally he's taking the most economically logical choice and getting his money back. As a result, the coral will likely die needlessly.

*This* exactly illustrates my argument about how such guarantees *can* be a detriment. If he didn't have a way to absolve himself of any obligation to the creature and get his investment back, he likely would have taken the advice given and possibly saved the remainder of the coral. Since it's a no-fault guarantee, who cares? Just get the cash back, after all he's a struggling student.

I don't blame the hobbyist for taking the logical way out and getting his money, but he stated himself that he would not have purchased the creature without that guarantee because he can't afford to lose it.

If one can't afford the hobby, one shouldn't be in it. If one doesn't want to be responsible for those creatures, one shouldn't purchase them.

*That*, friends, is the difference between marketing and being genuinely concerned about the future of the hobby, hobbyists and the organisms we keep. Think about it.

I'm hoping that the LFS in question will frag the piece and attempt to save it themselves... but another 24 hours without fragging and treating the remaining polyps - well it's a crapshoot.

Hopefully the protozoan doesn't spread to his other inhabitants. He was advised about that too but would rather get his $60 back than take proactive measures to correct the problem immediately.

Sad.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Not sure to be honest. They were shipping MO before I ever entered the industry. Liveaquaria.com was not started by me, We purchased it from a retailer and cataloger in Ohio and they were using FedEX.

My guess is their agreement refers to dogs and cats. Those are generally shipped by the passenger airlines. Might be a good question to pose to FedEX.

Will be out for a bit, Thanks, Race

 

[triggerfish1976]

Guarantees have been used for years as marketing tools to separate businesses from one another in a highly competitive market. If there is a high rate of loss or failure with the product then the business just raises the price to offset the financial losses due to the guarantee. The average consumer prefers to pay a little extra (would you like an extended warranty on that TV) not realizing that they are basically paying for all of the other losses that are being covered by paying the higher prices. Unfortunately this business model creates a mindset between the business and the consumer that the products being bought and sold are disposable due the fact that the business is covered financially due to the additional money they charge and the customer is generally fine with getting a brand new item if the original one fails.
I think this model works fine for the automobile and electronics industries but you start to push the ethics boundaries when the product being sold are living animals because they start to become "disposal".
I am not implying that this is being done by LA but I also don't buy into the statement that livestock health is in anyway associated with the business offering a guarantee. Like I said before, online vendors need to offer guarantees on health of their livestock because I cannot personally go into their facility and see the conditions or the animal I am buying in person but I don't think it is imperative for an LFS to offer one since I should know enough about the livestock I am buying to be able to tell if it is healthy or not in person and take the responsibility of that animals care once I decide to take it home.