Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

[aquaticvet1]

Being my customers most of you know that I am a hobbyist advocate and one that looks out for your best interests. Additionally, I share your passion for the livestock which resides in your tank.

In developing a positive advancement for the care and treatment of fish and coral I am proposing that every Etailer and Retailer provide a written 14 day guarantee for livestock sold to their customers.
Why, because these specimens are precious and a 14 day guarantee helps promote proper care in every step of the distribution chain. A guaranteed specimen is likely to be better chosen and cared for prior to being sold to the customer. I know that is the case at LiveAquaria.com and other "guaranteed" outlets including Retail and Etail.
I ask you to help me develop and promote this life enhancing project. Many of you have asked me how you can make a difference, this is it.

Here is what I suggest. When it comes time to purchase your fish and coral, only buy from an Etailer or Retailer who provides you with a written and clear 14 day guarantee. If they do not understand, please educate them. Talk at your reef clubs etc to help encourage this new and valuable concept. Demand it.

What is in it for you? As a livestock seller myself I can only represent what I am selling you. This representation is not always based on fact but rather an external visual exam of the specimen in question. I do not always know it's real age and can only provide an educated guess as to it's health. Just as in humans, even the most conditioned will occasionally die unexpectedly. Why should the hobbyist bear this cost when I am the one taking your money? Well, I do not think that you should and that is why I provide the now famous, 14 day guarantee. It is better for the livestock and the customer. Guarantees force me and other sellers to not buy substandard, unconditioned and poorly cared for fish and corals. The market is full of poor specimens and no "guaranteed outlet" would purchase and stand by them. We cannot afford to.

If you are a concerned hobbyist, I would never again purchase from a livestock vendor who does not trust their care enough to warranty your hard earned purchase. The hobby and the industry needs your demand of excellence and the livestock will benefit. A Guaranteed specimen may cost a little more up front but you will be money ahead in the long run. I have 7 years of sales records which proves that. Additionally, you can feel good that you are demanding the utmost care for livestock in every step of the distribution. Better husbandry saves lives and the ocean's resource. It's the right thing. It is the compassionate thing.

Lastly, I want to make it clear that I am not asking you to purchase livestock from LiveAquaria.com. There are many other quality outlets who advertise right here on ReefCentral. If they provide a good guarantee, why not try them. Additionally, as you and I change the retail world, the better LFS will offer you a 14 day guarantee, some do already. If any do not, avoid their fish and coral which most likely are not the quality you are looking for. Forget the sales pitches, no guarantee should equal no sale.

This change will be slow, but you the hobbyist deserves it. So does the livestock we so admire. A radical idea? Not really, many of the best stores have been doing it for years.

Make your demands and only support those who treat you right with an entrusting guarantee. Together we will make a difference. We will demand it through the "Guarantee". Accept nothing less.

Race Foster, D.V.M.

 

[dangtang25]

Great post, I've mentioned this to LFS owners who get upset when I say I order online. My reply, well then give me a guarantee!

Still nothing but maybe if more people harp at them.

 

[aquaticvet1]

This trend will take some time. Any new concept is met with initial resistance. Once they trust their customers, they will see their sales go up. It will cost me some business but I am committed to doing what is right for the hobby and the animals. I am not a big industry fan.

Thank you dangtang, I will keep the concept moving forward and I appreciate your help in spreading the word..---------Race

 

[Reefing102]

Excellent post. At the lfs i work at our FW fish have a 2 week and our SW have a 1 week guarantee. The district manager says because of the delicacy of the sw fish we can't guarantee them for longer

 

[aquaticvet1]

Very nice. Here may be a local fish store that deserves a look.
Thank you Shane !

 

[SDguy]

The trend I have seen locally has actually been to reduce/remove their guarantees

 

[aquaticvet1]

Peter,
It does not have to be. We have our work cut out for us but I am going to change it over time. Not a 100 %, but those who refuse will ultimately fail---- unfortunately. I want the local fish stores to succeed as many customers prefer them. They need to change, as does the entire industry.

 

[ezcompany]

No kidding, i just bought $80 for two fish at a LFS just to support the local stores, both died within 1 week. I think one was bagged straight from the Wholesales and being sold as is. It was my fault ultimately, but they were hard to find fish, and I also demanded a guarantee of some sort. didn't happen. heck, they didn't even let me use their restroom. I'll help spread the word

Jin

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jin,
I look at it like this. You are giving me money for a product of which I am representing as good. Things happen with living organisms and death can result. Is that your fault? Is it my fault ? The answer is, it may be nobody's fault so why should I keep your money. With a 14 day guarantee, at least we are sharing the burden. What ever happened to trust and faith? This industry needs it.
Thank you for all of your help and I am sorry about your experience. As a hobby, we can do better.

 

[SDguy]

Unfortunately, I have also seen the customer side encouraging this. Saving $$ seems to be more important for many hobbyists than a healthy, captive acclimated specimen. It's really the whole "fish are so disposable" mentality. People would rather chance a fresh-from-the-wholesaler/still-in-the-bag fish for half the price. I would rather only have to buy a fish once, rather than "try" several before I get lucky. I mean, we all have our losses, but why go through the stress. I also don't think many hobbyists realize how much work newly imported fish can be. I've been doing this long enough, and still don't always get it right And yes, I have tried those fresh-from-the-wholesaler fish...ugh, not fun.

I would totally support slightly higher LFS prices if they included a 2 week guarantee. Unfortunately, from what I've seen locally, I'm a minority, most definitely.

 

[SlowCobra]

Warning: This turned into a mini-novel

I live in a major metropolitan area. The LFS selection in my area is horrible to say the least. Guarantee? Sure there is a guarantee, it's called a taillight guarantee. Once your taillights are no longer visible, neither is your guarantee. The only way to get quality livestock is to order online or drive at minimum 90 minutes 1 way to some of the better stores.

Obviously that poses a problem. It's an entire waste of a day to do this. Or at least half a day minimum when you factor in roughly 3 hrs of transport time alone. Then the time spent browsing. If a purchase is made, put aside another couple hours for proper acclimation.

The closest LFS to me seems to keep raising their prices, yet what they offer in the way of livestock is completely hit or miss. Not to mention that same store is obviously hurting for business as the owner has taken to posting note-cards next to each tank about the dangers of continuing to purchase from online retailers and how you will end up having to drive X amount of miles to get a $2 part. Kind of sad actually as he is a nice guy.

There is one "quality" LFS in the area and everything they sell is literally double what the actual going rate should be. Really. Not kidding. Double.

I am all for supporting local businesses however when you charge double the price for an item that an online vendor has, and the online vendor offers a 14 day guarantee, well that just sends me to my computer. A friend and I actually went in there fairly recently just to laugh amongst ourselves about the pricing.

I applaud you for your dedication to this hobby and for offering a guarantee. Unfortunately while we can't predict how a specimen is going to react to shipping or other stresses it endures LiveAquaria takes a burden off of the consumers shoulders in offering that guarantee.
However with that guarantee comes the purchase of "special needs" livestock by consumers that haven't the faintest idea in how to actually deal with those types of items.

Many people fail to do their research and purchase an EXPERT CARE ONLY fish only to end up with a dead fish due to not having the knowledge and skills necessary to care for the fish from the time Fed Ex drops it off at your doorstep to the time it actually makes it into the main tank. In fact there is a post just a few down from this that I posted a... well... a diatribe of sorts about someone basically harassing LA about when he would get his replacement EXPERT ONLY HARD TO COME BY fish.

As was previously mentioned too many people have the throw away mentality, after all "it's only a fish".

In my opinion this creates a catch 22 situation. Improperly educated people buy fish from LiveAquaria. The problem lies in that there is no responsibility for THEIR actions. If they are to blame for the death of what was otherwise a perfectly healthy fish upon leaving the LA distributor...well it doesn't cost them anything to replace. Perhaps with the next one they will get lucky and it will endure the stress and survive.

It's a no win situation for anyone willing to offer that 14 day guarantee.

Perhaps I am wrong about the no win situation. Consumers may be more likely to purchase from someone offering that kind of guarantee. As the retailer though, you take a huge gamble that the consumer actually knows what they are doing.

 

[JennM]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10905933#post10905933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Unfortunately, I have also seen the customer side encouraging this. Saving $$ seems to be more important for many hobbyists than a healthy, captive acclimated specimen. It's really the whole "fish are so disposable" mentality. People would rather chance a fresh-from-the-wholesaler/still-in-the-bag fish for half the price. I would rather only have to buy a fish once, rather than "try" several before I get lucky. I mean, we all have our losses, but why go through the stress. I also don't think many hobbyists realize how much work newly imported fish can be. I've been doing this long enough, and still don't always get it right And yes, I have tried those fresh-from-the-wholesaler fish...ugh, not fun.

I would totally support slightly higher LFS prices if they included a 2 week guarantee. Unfortunately, from what I've seen locally, I'm a minority, most definitely.

I'm sure this post will likely be deleted... however did you know that a fish purchased from liveaquaria has about a 75% chance of being "fresh from the wholesaler?"

Yep it has a guarantee.... but most likely it has been drop-shipped. Dr. Foster provided that numerical statistic himself over on RDO some time ago. It was either 76 or 74% of his livestock sold that does NOT go through his WI facility, but rather, comes out of one of 5 or so wholesalers in CA.

Race Wrote:

No, I am selling to the consumer and that is my responsibility. No need for Wholesalers to offer me a guarantee. My fish will live or I will not purhase from QM. By the way QM is one of the best.

The contract is between me and the hobbyist and it is MY responsibility to bear that cost. QM nor any of the 5 or so Wholesalers that I use are not in my equation as far as the guarantee. I pressure all of them to use good shipping and ship quality fish or I will take my millions of dollars worth of livestock purchases elsewhere. I think they get the message.

Do the right thing, trust your customers and offer them a 14 day guarantee----Race

The rest of the discussion can be found here:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111915&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The quote above was from page 4.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Todd,
I do not disagree with anything that you stated. The guarantee is not a substitute for education. This is the reason why I have been so supportive of MASNA, and have spent thousands on education within my web sites. In the perfect world, the LFS should offer the guarantee to go along with the personal service. I see that at work every day in my own retail fish store. The Web is the next best thing.
Buying habits and human nature are slowly removing the Mom and Pop fish store and that is really where the knowledge was. Unfortunately the same has happened to the local pharmacy, barbershop and grill. Today we have Rite-aid, Regis and Denney's and in the fish world Petsmart and Petco.
I did not create on-line fish sales , in fact I was about the 5th player in. It is here to stay and my mission is to do it the best that it can be done. It has it's limitations and you correctly pointed some of them out.
Additionally, I spend money and charge a fair fee to sell the consumer the best livestock that enters this country. Healthy livestock that has been handled properly costs more--- but it has the best chance of surviving the guarantee. I am not known as a cheap fish seller on this very board. I sell nothing but quality and that lessons my chance of paying the guarantee. I do not turn and burn fish and coral and I deplore that activity.
On the flip side, I have been in the pet industry for 25 years. Livestock and aquarium supplies have the lowest profit margin of any pet supply, about 30% at DFS. Building a bricks and mortar around those margins is all but unreasonable. These margins along with increased building and rent fees will continue to devastate the LFS. These margins are not driven by me but rather the consumer. In a hobby that is expensive, the hobbyist is not willing to pay more for something that they do not "really need". That is and will be the plight and the web then becomes an alternative. As an alternative, the guarantee only helps to keep things amicable between buyer and seller.
Again---In the perfect world the guarantee should be at RETAIL and hence my mission. My challenge is not to Etailers but rather RETAILERS. Many need to take better care of their customers.

Your post was very good and well written---Thank you, Race

 

[derrikd]

great information

I have gotten Fish From D Fs. I have always gotten great fish and at good Prices. I plan on buying again once my new tank is up and running.
I say thank you for keeping this Hobby as respectful and less damaging to the natural world as possible.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Thank you derrik-----Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
All of our nonWYSYWYG fish are dropshipped from California. That means "one shipping" direct to the customer which is the absolute best for the livestock--GUARANTEED. We dropship from one California Wholesaler,-- the best one and that is Quality Marine (O20). They have the best livestock and personal of any wholesaler that I have ever been involved with. Many of the better retailers use them as well--THE BEST! With the rarer specimens that does not work as I have to use multiple suppliers to obtain them. I ship them to Wisconsin then on to the hobbyist. Not perfect for the animals as it involves extra handling and quarantine.
In the perfect world all livestock should be sent direct from point of import to the hobbyist. Shipping fish to holding facilities like mine and to retail shops like yours only causes more stress, disease and death. No person can dispute that especially me with a background in animal health and as a certified veterinarian in the interstate and intrastate shipping of animals. Shipping is the number one stress on any animal including fish and coral. Minimize it with direct shipping (dropshipping) when possible.
One Shipping or as you call " dropshipping" is my preferred method. Best for the livestock by far and those fish and coral almost always survive the guarantee.
I and the entire industry should embrace and promote direct shipping, less stress, less mortality, less costs. Because of our increased WYSWYWYG sales our percentage of dropshipped fish is declining but in absolute dollars it is going up.

Thanks, Race

 

[JennM]

So does QM quarantine, have a disease protocol and hold fish for a length of time before they are rebagged and shipped again? Or do they go out as fast as they come in?

Acclimating a fish that's just arrived from a long overnight trip is more intricate than acclimating a fish that took a 1-hour ride or less home from a LFS... particularly if that fish was fed and rested before it was rebagged and sent home.

I don't disagree that every time a fish is bagged and transported it's a stressor - we can all agree on that. I just beg to differ that a fish that just arrived at a wholesale facility and is turned around and re-bagged promptly and shipped again is less stressed than one that had some time in a facility with food, rest and a good disease protocol.

I'm just curious

In our discussions on the other board, and this one, you insist that a 14-day post-purchase guarantee is the *only* way to go. What I seem to be unable to impart to you, is that a LFS that holds its new arrivals until they are well acclimated, eating and rested, is equally as good. I suppose you could look at it as I put my work into the front end of the deal - you put yours into the back end.

The end result should be the same - a healthy specimen with a long life ahead of it.

I simply choose to put that faith in my ability to do the right thing by the organism *before* it leaves my facility. Once I don't have care, custody or control of that organism, I don't know what happens to it. I try to safeguard my customers by offering support - water testing, advice etc., in an effort to help the consumer achieve success in the longevity of their specimens.

We really are trying to achieve the same thing, Race, you're just better at spinning it than I am, and since you don't have care, custody or control of most of those organisms on the front end, you choose to back it up on the back end. Nothing *wrong* with that - but you're suggesting that LFS give *more* than what you're willing to give - I think at the very least we're about even... and perhaps even a bit more proactive on the LFS end since we take the risk on the front end.

Jenn

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10908387#post10908387 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
I'm sure this post will likely be deleted... however did you know that a fish purchased from liveaquaria has about a 75% chance of being "fresh from the wholesaler?"

Yep it has a guarantee.... but most likely it has been drop-shipped. Dr. Foster provided that numerical statistic himself over on RDO some time ago. It was either 76 or 74% of his livestock sold that does NOT go through his WI facility, but rather, comes out of one of 5 or so wholesalers in CA.

The quote above was from page 4.

Jenn

Um, yup, I am well aware of what comes from their CA wholesaler vs. their WI facility. My comment was more directed at their DD section fish, from their WI facility, which generally have a higher price tag than their CA stock (and which are often a point of contention with local reefers here). But thanks for the heads up anyways.

So why the "guns drawn" approach on this thread anyways?

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
I have spent time at Quality Marine (O2O) and Kevin is there often. Our fish are separated on an allocation for quarantine and inspection prior ship out.
I do not get all of their best fish as most goes to their Retail customers--- as they should.. I am only a small part of their business, what percentage, I do not know.. They have expanded their facility ( great facility) and yes the fish are properly acclimated, quarantined and inspected for health.
I would urge every retailer and etailer to use Quality marine for livestock. I have never been in a better facility with more knowledgeable people. Not that others do not have quality livestock too but the knowledge, ethics, care and dedication to the livestock at Quality Marine is the best in the entire industry.
As a hobbyist, I would demand Quality Marine fish and coral whenever possible and I would have them dropshipped directly to my home. Less shipping equals less stress, less death, BETTER ETHICS.

Thanks, Race

 

[JennM]

No guns are drawn as such. The original discussion started on RDO, and since Race's commercial posting over there got locked, he decided to take it over here.

His contention seems to be that LFS offer inferior quality and guarantees, and I beg to differ. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not suggesting his guarantee isn't good, but he appears to be suggesting that a good LFS with a good protocol is somewhat inferior to what he's doing. I'm simply offering the other side of the coin.

Jenn