In Process of "renovating my SH tank"
- Thread starter whatnot45
- Start date
Samala
New member
I'm not a fan of the overall tone of this thread but I think its stemming from just a couple of missed notes.
Vibrio sp can be carried by some fish (ie, your female SH) without presenting itself and without killing the animal. If she undergoes a lot of stress (bad water quality, too many FW dips) she might start to show symptoms again. So far as I know, there is no way to clear a carrier of the Vibrio infection. Any SH you expose her to in the future may also become infected.
I kinda find it odd that your erectus are from OR and had this condition. OR is supposed to be a clean facility with their fish coming to you without infection. Have you ever had SH in this tank before? Can you think of an instance where the zosterae tank water might have been shared with the 29gallon and potentially spread the bacteria? (That is, assuming the zosterae were wild caught.)
At any rate, personally I dont know if I'd go more than one pair of SH in a 29gal but I like very light bioloads.
As everyone else is telling you, slow down and establish the tank as a healthy environment again and keep the female in good condition. When the system is stable for a few months then it will be time to ask the experts if you might be able to introduce more fish or not.
>Sarah
Vibrio sp can be carried by some fish (ie, your female SH) without presenting itself and without killing the animal. If she undergoes a lot of stress (bad water quality, too many FW dips) she might start to show symptoms again. So far as I know, there is no way to clear a carrier of the Vibrio infection. Any SH you expose her to in the future may also become infected.
I kinda find it odd that your erectus are from OR and had this condition. OR is supposed to be a clean facility with their fish coming to you without infection. Have you ever had SH in this tank before? Can you think of an instance where the zosterae tank water might have been shared with the 29gallon and potentially spread the bacteria? (That is, assuming the zosterae were wild caught.)
At any rate, personally I dont know if I'd go more than one pair of SH in a 29gal but I like very light bioloads.
As everyone else is telling you, slow down and establish the tank as a healthy environment again and keep the female in good condition. When the system is stable for a few months then it will be time to ask the experts if you might be able to introduce more fish or not. >Sarah
I have had other seahorses, but they all came from Ocean rider... My zoestra also come from Ocean rider, so ther is no way there. The only possible explaniation is that before my tank was a seahorse tank, it was a reef tank... and some deseases might have carried over from that... but I dont know
pledosophy
Active member
There are dedicated communities that frequently share knowledge, and scientific research findings with each other to promote and increase the general knowledge of fish keeping.
While most everything you know is based on sometype of opinion that does not hold true to all members of these boards.
While I am not claiming nor has anyone here claimed to know all of the anwsers there are certain findings that are based through not only ancedotal evidence but also through extensive research.
There are many ways to succsessfully run a marine tank. These ways have all been developed by those that understand the function of the individual elements. The sand bed debate, the skimmer debate, the calcuim reactor debate, the refugium debate, the cannister filter debates, the lighting debates, feeding debates, supplement debates all focus on different combinations of the available resources we have and how to best combine them for the most functional tank. There is no debate on whether to keep a tank with 0 ppt ammonia, or 1000 ppt amonia, or whether you should feed your fish once a week once a month or once a year. Why is this?
While experimentation and pushing the envelope is widely excepted and encouraged on this board, doing so with complete disregard to the basic fundamentals of the hobby are generally frowned upon. You have to know what your doing before you start experimenting with things.
My comment about Whatnot's lack of knowledge in regard to marine keeping and fundamentals of chemistry was not meant to be insulting. If he was offended I apologize. Sincerely. It is meant to be honest. It is my opinion that one should grasp the basic fundamentals of keeping an animal before purchasing more animals. I have not called anyone any names. The bridge comment was me trying to lighten things up a bit. Whatever implications you have drawn are your own to deal with.
Often times bad advice like suggesting someone treat seahorses like they were clownfish causes a hobbyist with lessor experience to actually do something like that, or confuses them to the point of in action.
pledosophy
Active member
WOW four post while I wrote one. I think your right Sarah, I will try to calm down.
Whatnot I'm glad your not offended. i wasn't trying to offend you. Give you a bit of a hard time, ya, but not trying to hurt your feelings. YOu learned a lesson a very hard way that sux.
Looking back you might be right. The time I gave you that advice was a week after you stopped feeding. It might have been to late.
To expand on the vibrio concept.
It is one nasty bugger.
There is currently believed to be 34 different strains of the bacteria that affect fish. Scientists have cultured several different strains in different seahorses. Seahorses of the same species have often been cultured for different strains of the bacteria. Some seahorses have even been cultured carrying more than one strain of vibrio.
These strains live in seahorses in an asymptomatic carrier state. That means a seahorse can live it's full life carrying the bacteria, never show any sign of disease and die of old age. It also means this same seahorse never having shown even the slightest symptom of a vibrio related illness, has the potential to infect your entire system with the bacteria.
The bacteria has the ability to live and be carried by different crusteceans and annelids ( I always spell that wrong). Dr Ron has found that in a square foot of sand in a home aquarium there can be between 20,000 and 80,000 different organisms. This is why the bacteria has the potential to survive in a system long after the horses are gone. There have been reports of hobbyist keeping a system completely fallow for a year after a vibrio outbreak, but when intorducing new syngnathids, the out break of the orginal strain occurs.
Vibrio bacterias are nuetralized by UV filters at exposure times from 10 to 70 seconds. After 70 seconds of exposure the bacteria has the ability to mutate to form a UV resistan strain.
Vibrio has the ability to live at temperature close to zero, although most strains that commonly affect syngnathids become less virtulent at temps lower then 69F. That is why the new trend in temperature recommendations has been on the lower side of the spectrum. The bacteria reproduces faster and is more aggresive at higher temps.
Scary huh. Here is the scarier part, it's everywhere. Vibrio is commonly foundin the ocean in swarms of zooplankton. Over 40 different pathogens have been detected on artemia shells including vibrio.
Vibrio is not passed down genetically even through the gestation period, so exposure has to come after birth. There is some dispute on the exact percentage of seahorses carrying vibrio, while one scientist specializing in seahorses has the number around 60%, other scientist including Shedd's puts the number at 100%.
So if it is every where then why worry?
It is my opinion that with proper husbandry techniques that the effects of vibrio can be greatly negated in our home systems. That is why I want to encourage you to learn more. If you can setup a system that is more seahorse friendly, you will not have to worry about these things.
Mixing different known carriers is always dangerous, but with a little extra care you can do it. IF you are purchasing again from OR it is highly likely the new seahorses you receive will carry the same strain of the bacteria and thus have some resistance. The major problems usually arise when mixing two different speciments with no previous resistance to the others strain of vibrio. This is the main problem with mixing species.
While some strains of vibrio are extremely aggressive and have not been succsessfully treated, most strains are managable with antibiotics. The most common problem related to treating vibrio infections in seahorses is under dosage. While it can temporarily cure a seahorse of the outbreak, it is likely to make the bacteria anti biotic resistant, which will make it nearly impossible to treat in the future for that horse, or other syngnathids affected by that new strain of bacteria. There is a product developed for seahorses called Neo3 that is designed to treat vibrio infections with the proper dosage.
I think the deal with OR and it's High Health Certificate and the relation to vibrio is they can get passed it. There are Universities saying that all seahorses carry it as a means to aid with digestion. It's only when things go bad is the vibrio considered to be an outside infection. That's just my theory. No proof. Honestly I do not think it is a horrible thing to sell a seahorse who is a positive carrier for vibrio, it is so common. To have to kill off all the carriers would be sad.
Good Luck.
Kevin
Whatnot I'm glad your not offended. i wasn't trying to offend you. Give you a bit of a hard time, ya, but not trying to hurt your feelings. YOu learned a lesson a very hard way that sux.
Looking back you might be right. The time I gave you that advice was a week after you stopped feeding. It might have been to late.
To expand on the vibrio concept.
It is one nasty bugger.
There is currently believed to be 34 different strains of the bacteria that affect fish. Scientists have cultured several different strains in different seahorses. Seahorses of the same species have often been cultured for different strains of the bacteria. Some seahorses have even been cultured carrying more than one strain of vibrio.
These strains live in seahorses in an asymptomatic carrier state. That means a seahorse can live it's full life carrying the bacteria, never show any sign of disease and die of old age. It also means this same seahorse never having shown even the slightest symptom of a vibrio related illness, has the potential to infect your entire system with the bacteria.
The bacteria has the ability to live and be carried by different crusteceans and annelids ( I always spell that wrong). Dr Ron has found that in a square foot of sand in a home aquarium there can be between 20,000 and 80,000 different organisms. This is why the bacteria has the potential to survive in a system long after the horses are gone. There have been reports of hobbyist keeping a system completely fallow for a year after a vibrio outbreak, but when intorducing new syngnathids, the out break of the orginal strain occurs.
Vibrio bacterias are nuetralized by UV filters at exposure times from 10 to 70 seconds. After 70 seconds of exposure the bacteria has the ability to mutate to form a UV resistan strain.
Vibrio has the ability to live at temperature close to zero, although most strains that commonly affect syngnathids become less virtulent at temps lower then 69F. That is why the new trend in temperature recommendations has been on the lower side of the spectrum. The bacteria reproduces faster and is more aggresive at higher temps.
Scary huh. Here is the scarier part, it's everywhere. Vibrio is commonly foundin the ocean in swarms of zooplankton. Over 40 different pathogens have been detected on artemia shells including vibrio.
Vibrio is not passed down genetically even through the gestation period, so exposure has to come after birth. There is some dispute on the exact percentage of seahorses carrying vibrio, while one scientist specializing in seahorses has the number around 60%, other scientist including Shedd's puts the number at 100%.
So if it is every where then why worry?
It is my opinion that with proper husbandry techniques that the effects of vibrio can be greatly negated in our home systems. That is why I want to encourage you to learn more. If you can setup a system that is more seahorse friendly, you will not have to worry about these things.
Mixing different known carriers is always dangerous, but with a little extra care you can do it. IF you are purchasing again from OR it is highly likely the new seahorses you receive will carry the same strain of the bacteria and thus have some resistance. The major problems usually arise when mixing two different speciments with no previous resistance to the others strain of vibrio. This is the main problem with mixing species.
While some strains of vibrio are extremely aggressive and have not been succsessfully treated, most strains are managable with antibiotics. The most common problem related to treating vibrio infections in seahorses is under dosage. While it can temporarily cure a seahorse of the outbreak, it is likely to make the bacteria anti biotic resistant, which will make it nearly impossible to treat in the future for that horse, or other syngnathids affected by that new strain of bacteria. There is a product developed for seahorses called Neo3 that is designed to treat vibrio infections with the proper dosage.
I think the deal with OR and it's High Health Certificate and the relation to vibrio is they can get passed it. There are Universities saying that all seahorses carry it as a means to aid with digestion. It's only when things go bad is the vibrio considered to be an outside infection. That's just my theory. No proof. Honestly I do not think it is a horrible thing to sell a seahorse who is a positive carrier for vibrio, it is so common. To have to kill off all the carriers would be sad.
Good Luck.
Kevin
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pledosophy
Active member
Your making me blush.
I'm lucky that people are so willing to share there research with me. I've spent alot of time reading but the credit should go to those guys who put in the time in the lab.
I'm lucky that people are so willing to share there research with me. I've spent alot of time reading but the credit should go to those guys who put in the time in the lab.
Swanwillow
goby girl
wasn't implying hobbiests are stupid, just... some things are aggravating. not this though!!! there is so much info going on in this thread, its kinda good, if ya read it all...
Awesome Vibrio info Kevin :spin1: :thumbsup:
You've been keep'in stuff to yourself.
To add to the problem, it's not just Vibrio that can infect a tank.
Lately I'm seeing cases of mycobacteria and internal parasites (worms) in CB seahorses from reputable breeders. There is ongoing effort to find out what the worms are, and where they are coming from (another SH, food, non-sh tankmates?).
This pic is the heart of a CB H. erectus with worms all around it.
Pic
You've been keep'in stuff to yourself.
To add to the problem, it's not just Vibrio that can infect a tank.
Lately I'm seeing cases of mycobacteria and internal parasites (worms) in CB seahorses from reputable breeders. There is ongoing effort to find out what the worms are, and where they are coming from (another SH, food, non-sh tankmates?).
This pic is the heart of a CB H. erectus with worms all around it.
Pic
Wow, this thread has gotten really interesting.
First, the bad cop comment was purely in jest. I got this visual about two fish nerds shining bright light into some poor kids eyes and grilling him while he was clutching a fishbowl. I'll try to keep my overactive imagination and offbeat sense of humor in check in the future.
Fascinating info on vibrio Kevin. I wonder what triggers the release in protiens by the vibrio bacteria. I also wonder how this relates to raising fry, which do not have much of an imune system at birth (and the use of beta glucan). I would love to hear more Keving if you are willing to start another thread (don't want to hyjack this one.).
Labdock. I couldn't get your link to work. First I got a 'not logged in' error message and after logging in still was not redirected to the thread. If you can give me a forum and approximate date I can hunt the post down.
Fred
EDIT: oh yea, still glad you are still with us whatnot. Seahorses are wonderful creatures.
First, the bad cop comment was purely in jest. I got this visual about two fish nerds shining bright light into some poor kids eyes and grilling him while he was clutching a fishbowl. I'll try to keep my overactive imagination and offbeat sense of humor in check in the future.
Fascinating info on vibrio Kevin. I wonder what triggers the release in protiens by the vibrio bacteria. I also wonder how this relates to raising fry, which do not have much of an imune system at birth (and the use of beta glucan). I would love to hear more Keving if you are willing to start another thread (don't want to hyjack this one.).
Labdock. I couldn't get your link to work. First I got a 'not logged in' error message and after logging in still was not redirected to the thread. If you can give me a forum and approximate date I can hunt the post down.
Fred
EDIT: oh yea, still glad you are still with us whatnot. Seahorses are wonderful creatures.
pledosophy
Active member
Fred your histerical. I got some of those HD clip ons with the CF that output 500 W. I bet those would work.
Thanks for the compliments. The best explanation on the productions of the various phages that create the proteins leading to disease would come from the Great Labdoc. He has explained it to me, but hobestly I really don't understand all of it. Still looking into it. I wish I would have paid more attention to my science classes in school.
I think the link is to a protected members only forum on seahorse.org. It is one of the slides Labdoc has produced during the course of his research. He is one of those guys behing the Microscope. If you haven't seen it I think you can still order the DVD of his presentation at IMAC in 05 on seahorse pathology.
Thanks for the compliments. The best explanation on the productions of the various phages that create the proteins leading to disease would come from the Great Labdoc. He has explained it to me, but hobestly I really don't understand all of it. Still looking into it. I wish I would have paid more attention to my science classes in school.
I think the link is to a protected members only forum on seahorse.org. It is one of the slides Labdoc has produced during the course of his research. He is one of those guys behing the Microscope.
If you haven't seen it I think you can still order the DVD of his presentation at IMAC in 05 on seahorse pathology.Iknew you had a light like that!
Looks like I will have to bug labdoc sometime. I was following links and searching scientific papers and came across some interesting project seahorse reading on disease. I am glad I have a huge pod producing refugium and a low bioload in my seahorse system.
Fred
Looks like I will have to bug labdoc sometime. I was following links and searching scientific papers and came across some interesting project seahorse reading on disease. I am glad I have a huge pod producing refugium and a low bioload in my seahorse system.
Fred
pledosophy
Active member
Project seahorse has some O.K. Stuff. I do better with Google and private emails to college proffesors or grad students.
THose pods are known to spread the disease. I'm still happy I have them everywhere in my systems,
the blackwellsynergy group has some really fascinating articles if you can find a place to get on.
I wanted to get a subscription but my wife thought it was silly to sell my car to pay for half of the annual fee. I still didn't have a plan for the other half at the time. I wonder how much I could get for her.
I'm really kidding I love my wife, but the site is crazy expensive. There is good info out there, but it has been challenging to find. Everytime I learn something I just have more questions. I thought I'd hit gold when I read confirmation on the bacteria creating a protein to cause the disease, really alot more complicated then that.
THose pods are known to spread the disease. I'm still happy I have them everywhere in my systems,
the blackwellsynergy group has some really fascinating articles if you can find a place to get on.
I wanted to get a subscription but my wife thought it was silly to sell my car to pay for half of the annual fee. I still didn't have a plan for the other half at the time. I wonder how much I could get for her.
I'm really kidding I love my wife, but the site is crazy expensive. There is good info out there, but it has been challenging to find. Everytime I learn something I just have more questions. I thought I'd hit gold when I read confirmation on the bacteria creating a protein to cause the disease, really alot more complicated then that.
Samala
New member
Pledo I'd be happy to help out with articles if you give me some notice.. Dont sell your lovey, science cant take care of you when you're old and gray! I wish all scientific databases were open access like www.plos.org. Ahh, someday, I hope.
>Sarah
I wish all scientific databases were open access like www.plos.org. Ahh, someday, I hope. >Sarah
pledosophy
Active member
I'll shoot you a PM. I got a new assignment and have quite the load of info to gather. I tried PLOS but none of the topics I am looking at came up in the search at all. i guess I really am an oddball.
greenighs
New member
Wow, interesting thread, lots of good info!
Kevin, re: the "Bad Cop" riff ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â wow, I think you've been reading my posts too much! :lol:
Whatnot, I know you feel like a failure, but as long as you learn something from the experience, it won't be in vain. Hang in there.
Also, whatnot, OR will be running another special, another time. You might also find someone who wants to split shipping for a combined order in your area, when you're ready to get horses again. Let's get your tank in shape to keep the horses healthy first. After all, money saved on animals that might not make it isn't really a bargain. Someone once told me to divide the money I spent on an animal over the time I had it in my care to find the real price. So, 4 horses for $300 that last 3 weeks is actually more expensive than 2 horses for $420 that last 3 years.
We live and learn. Glad you stuck around through the "tough guy" posts, because some awesome info was given that will be a huge help to you.
Kevin, re: the "Bad Cop" riff ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â wow, I think you've been reading my posts too much! :lol:
Whatnot, I know you feel like a failure, but as long as you learn something from the experience, it won't be in vain. Hang in there.
Also, whatnot, OR will be running another special, another time. You might also find someone who wants to split shipping for a combined order in your area, when you're ready to get horses again. Let's get your tank in shape to keep the horses healthy first. After all, money saved on animals that might not make it isn't really a bargain. Someone once told me to divide the money I spent on an animal over the time I had it in my care to find the real price. So, 4 horses for $300 that last 3 weeks is actually more expensive than 2 horses for $420 that last 3 years.
We live and learn. Glad you stuck around through the "tough guy" posts, because some awesome info was given that will be a huge help to you.
pledosophy
Active member
Yeah Greenie you arggg rubbing off on me.
