Interesting thread
- Thread starter Letmegrow
- Start date
Reefer Wannabe
Premium Member
Wow--very interesting stuff. Loved the input from many different "bigwigs" in the LR/coral business. I just skimmed, now I've got to go back and read those loooooonnnng posts.
That's probably one of the most informative and yet entertaining threads I've read in a long time. I don't really have any constructive input but thanks for the link Steve.
logiktest
New member
Interesting thread. Sounds like the kids are arguing over who took the largest slice of the pie before they got busted.
The most recurring point made in the thread was aquaculture and mariculture. Anyone who cares even a little about our environment should understand it's benefits, and be in agreement that this is the future of the hobby.
However, I personally have a hard time understanding why these operations need to be carried out overseas in remote locations of the world. Are there some sort of super bacteria growing in the seas of Fiji to populate man made live rock that someplace like The Gulf, Florida or the Bahamas can't provide us?
Also, I have the same boggle about coral. If I receive one zoanthid, then keep it for a while, I will eventually have fifty zoanthids. If I give one zoanthid each to thirty of my friends, they in turn should eventually have fifty zoanthids each. My thirty friends give away 30 zoanthids... so on and so on. So I suppose I don't understand why a person can't just get one frag of a "choice" coral, then frag, frag, frag, and presto, money is earned, or people are hooked up, and wherever the the original frag came from has grown back to it's former glory. Does all this really need to take place on some remote island I may never have a chance to visit, as opposed to a warehouse somewhere in the city of STL?
I suppose I'm just thinking aloud here...
This would make for good discussion come pizza night, yes?
The most recurring point made in the thread was aquaculture and mariculture. Anyone who cares even a little about our environment should understand it's benefits, and be in agreement that this is the future of the hobby.
However, I personally have a hard time understanding why these operations need to be carried out overseas in remote locations of the world. Are there some sort of super bacteria growing in the seas of Fiji to populate man made live rock that someplace like The Gulf, Florida or the Bahamas can't provide us?
Also, I have the same boggle about coral. If I receive one zoanthid, then keep it for a while, I will eventually have fifty zoanthids. If I give one zoanthid each to thirty of my friends, they in turn should eventually have fifty zoanthids each. My thirty friends give away 30 zoanthids... so on and so on. So I suppose I don't understand why a person can't just get one frag of a "choice" coral, then frag, frag, frag, and presto, money is earned, or people are hooked up, and wherever the the original frag came from has grown back to it's former glory. Does all this really need to take place on some remote island I may never have a chance to visit, as opposed to a warehouse somewhere in the city of STL?
I suppose I'm just thinking aloud here...
This would make for good discussion come pizza night, yes?
VSpeck
Slash Smack Talker
if all thirty of your friends have 50 corals of all diffrent kinds and slash has a breeding ground for corals and we lower the price of corals on the market by fragging than what will farmer collect to make his million dollars wort of equptment worth while. second if we all get together and have that many corals where would we keep them?
btw steve that was a good read.
btw steve that was a good read.
logiktest
New member
Chad would be forced into assimilation by SLASH Aquaculture Farms LLC, rendering all his equipment allocated for the greater good of the endeavor. (He may get to keep his profilux controller for personal use)
We would keep the corals in a top secret warehouse, of course.
BTW Vic, I saw that ultra gigantic, partitioned acrylic display at your house the other day. (prepare to kiss it goodbye
)
We would keep the corals in a top secret warehouse, of course.
BTW Vic, I saw that ultra gigantic, partitioned acrylic display at your house the other day. (prepare to kiss it goodbye
)
zt444a
New member
SOrt of agree that it seems like sour grapes coming from both sides.
One would think that the number of times MACNA and others have had an august personage such as Walt Smith present a topic at their shows, that there would not be so much drama associated with them. Maybe this drama is created and not really real? Why would Walt Smith weigh in on a topic like the Tonga Ban on R/C and open himself and his business to ridicule and loss? Wouldn't seem like a smart move to me if you were in the business just for the cash.
I am not siding with WSI or Baliboy, or any of the others, just thinking out loud really. I would think that the reason that corals are grown in places like Tonga and Fiji ( aquaculture/mariculture) is that the environmental conditions are more easily met there. If growing them successfully on a reef in the wild was that easy, you'd notice more of a spread of the same types of corals in other places. Some seem to grow only in certain areas in the wild. Must be a reason, right?
If you harvest anything like coral or fish in the wild, then you must put back more than you take in order to rebuild the reefs. You harvest rate must also take into account regrowth rates. If you are taking basketball sized frags and putting back a little cement frag plug, it just ain't the same, ya know?
My two cents...
One would think that the number of times MACNA and others have had an august personage such as Walt Smith present a topic at their shows, that there would not be so much drama associated with them. Maybe this drama is created and not really real? Why would Walt Smith weigh in on a topic like the Tonga Ban on R/C and open himself and his business to ridicule and loss? Wouldn't seem like a smart move to me if you were in the business just for the cash.
I am not siding with WSI or Baliboy, or any of the others, just thinking out loud really. I would think that the reason that corals are grown in places like Tonga and Fiji ( aquaculture/mariculture) is that the environmental conditions are more easily met there. If growing them successfully on a reef in the wild was that easy, you'd notice more of a spread of the same types of corals in other places. Some seem to grow only in certain areas in the wild. Must be a reason, right?
If you harvest anything like coral or fish in the wild, then you must put back more than you take in order to rebuild the reefs. You harvest rate must also take into account regrowth rates. If you are taking basketball sized frags and putting back a little cement frag plug, it just ain't the same, ya know?
My two cents...
I understand that maybe their government over there may be without all of the facts, possibly these guys were the exception and were actually doing the right thing by not destroying the reef. All it ever takes is one bad egg then more will follow and sooner rather than later the basis of your industry is gone.
I applaud the governements of these countries, standing up and shutting down significant export revenue stream to protect what is at stake even if a couple of coral/LR exporters suffer from their decisions. They are protecting their greatest natural assets and what I would guess is their greatest revenue stream, tourism.
Our country has done similar things, see natinonal park system, only our protected areas account for maybe 3% of our land area and that 3% is equal to their whole country area.
If the industry suffers form this than maybe things will get better. People will be forced to trade frags and support companies that culture corals here in the states. Our society only changes their ways when time get tough, and the companies in whatever industry provide us with what we want until it kills us and then when we realize what we should have had they struggle to change over (see current auto indutry with SUV's on lots and no fuel efficient vehicles)
It just seems to me that our culture demands what we want. We can never settle for what we should have. Call it greed, maybe.
Whatever it is I am glad I live in this area of the country in terms of this hobby. I have to say most of the coral in my tank has been bought or traded from fellow reefers who made frags and then distributed them. This is not a group of poeple who trade just some polyps or xenia stalks every now and then.
I think this area has some of the best ricordia in the country, thanks to one hobbiest turned retail. Readily available at reasonable prices in a retail setting. PM me if you have no idea what I am talking about.
Enough of a rant. In the end the linked post was a rant between competitors who both got their lemonade stands shut down and now they are blamming each other.
I applaud the governements of these countries, standing up and shutting down significant export revenue stream to protect what is at stake even if a couple of coral/LR exporters suffer from their decisions. They are protecting their greatest natural assets and what I would guess is their greatest revenue stream, tourism.
Our country has done similar things, see natinonal park system, only our protected areas account for maybe 3% of our land area and that 3% is equal to their whole country area.
If the industry suffers form this than maybe things will get better. People will be forced to trade frags and support companies that culture corals here in the states. Our society only changes their ways when time get tough, and the companies in whatever industry provide us with what we want until it kills us and then when we realize what we should have had they struggle to change over (see current auto indutry with SUV's on lots and no fuel efficient vehicles)
It just seems to me that our culture demands what we want. We can never settle for what we should have. Call it greed, maybe.
Whatever it is I am glad I live in this area of the country in terms of this hobby. I have to say most of the coral in my tank has been bought or traded from fellow reefers who made frags and then distributed them. This is not a group of poeple who trade just some polyps or xenia stalks every now and then.
I think this area has some of the best ricordia in the country, thanks to one hobbiest turned retail. Readily available at reasonable prices in a retail setting. PM me if you have no idea what I am talking about.
Enough of a rant. In the end the linked post was a rant between competitors who both got their lemonade stands shut down and now they are blamming each other.
Its not necessarily that it can't be done, however, I'll give you one really good reason why it shouldn't be done, two words, "invasive species" :mad2:
Our natural reefs have enough trouble as it is, particularly in the Caribbean. The last thing they need is added pressure from some some exotic coral from thousands of miles away taking advantage of the fact that it has no natural predators or competitors in its new home and completely overgrowing everything in site. Take for example kutzu and zebra mussels.
I think fragging is one of the most important and ecologically responsible things anyone in this hobby can do. Its just so easy. If more people fragged and shared within their local area, prices could be driven way down, while taking pressure off our reefs and allowing them to return to an more natural condition. Unfortunately, there is a large portion of the reefing community (most of them not on RC) that are not patient, are only concerned about the "now", demanding a tank full of large corals immediately, and don't appreciate the pleasures of watching things grow. These are in general the folks that our purchasing collected coral
I also understand that wild collection and marinculture can be done in a ecologically friendly and sustainable manner and that the industry provides a lot of needed economical support to some really poverty stricken communities. I support and applaud those that adhere to sound environmental and economical business practices. However, man as every species on this planet, is inherently selfish. There will always be those bad apples that ruin it for everyone.
FWIW
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Sorry Guys, I actually misread both yours and logik's posts. You both have very valid points. For some reason I got it in my head that you wanted to take Tongan coral and culture it on Caribean reefs
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Letmegrow
New member
Hmmm well.....
I don't know where to start.
I think Walt had free reign for a decade+ and did very little other than line his pockets and the governments of the respected countries.
I think all business models should be Sustain, sustain, sustain.
But I am a tree hugging eco loving closet hippie, with acute LMS.
(As diagnosed by Reeferhead.)
I don't know where to start.
I think Walt had free reign for a decade+ and did very little other than line his pockets and the governments of the respected countries.
I think all business models should be Sustain, sustain, sustain.
But I am a tree hugging eco loving closet hippie, with acute LMS.
(As diagnosed by Reeferhead.)
Walt Smith
Premium Member
Dear letmegrow,
Your post is non-productive, uninformed and borders on slander. Do you really know anything about me or what I stand for? I have worked on sustainable practices and environmental issues in this industry for more years than you have been alive.
It is comments like yours (without checking the facts) that do harm to those that have worked all their lives to create a sustainable industry.
The free reign you speak of only lasted a couple of years while we were able to train all of our divers in absolute clean collecting practices. Now we have 5 companies and I have still offered to teach them all how to grow coral and make rock but no one has taken me up on the offer.
I have hardly lined my pockets but I have spent almost everything I make on trying to show by example how to do things the right way concerning our environment.
This year alone we have privately spent over 20k to bring scientist in to study the impact our industry has on the reef ...... not required but I thought is was important.
Walt
Your post is non-productive, uninformed and borders on slander. Do you really know anything about me or what I stand for? I have worked on sustainable practices and environmental issues in this industry for more years than you have been alive.
It is comments like yours (without checking the facts) that do harm to those that have worked all their lives to create a sustainable industry.
The free reign you speak of only lasted a couple of years while we were able to train all of our divers in absolute clean collecting practices. Now we have 5 companies and I have still offered to teach them all how to grow coral and make rock but no one has taken me up on the offer.
I have hardly lined my pockets but I have spent almost everything I make on trying to show by example how to do things the right way concerning our environment.
This year alone we have privately spent over 20k to bring scientist in to study the impact our industry has on the reef ...... not required but I thought is was important.
Walt
Hey Walt,
Welcome to St. Louis!
I'm not going to get between you and Letmegrow. However, I'm highly interested in this privately funded study you mentioned. Can you elaborate or provide anymore information on who's doing the actual study, what its goals are, and how you plan to keep it unbiased when the industry is footing the bill? Have there been any previous studies or preliminary work?
Any links or documentation you could provide would be great.
Thanks,
Welcome to St. Louis!
I'm not going to get between you and Letmegrow. However, I'm highly interested in this privately funded study you mentioned. Can you elaborate or provide anymore information on who's doing the actual study, what its goals are, and how you plan to keep it unbiased when the industry is footing the bill? Have there been any previous studies or preliminary work?
Any links or documentation you could provide would be great.
Thanks,
