Is copper safe for FOWLR?
- Thread starter chevegan
- Start date
kills it. Dead tank, no bacteria, no filtration, nothing. Fish will survive because they're bigger than bacteria and ich parasites, but even they take some damage as time passes, and ultimately will not fare well.
I take it you have at least one fish with ich. You have two choices: either pull ALL fish to quarantine and treat them there either with copper or with hyposalinity...
THEN do not get let another fish get into that main tank for 6-8 weeks (without fish to parasitize, the ich starves out in that time frame). Continue to feed inverts as appropriate. They'll be fine in there.
Choice two, feed garlic (a food supplement the function of which nobody understands or agrees on) and hope the sick fish doesn't take the rest with him. If they all die, you STILL must leave that tank fishless for 8 weeks to be safe. And quarantine all new purchases.
I take it you have at least one fish with ich. You have two choices: either pull ALL fish to quarantine and treat them there either with copper or with hyposalinity...
THEN do not get let another fish get into that main tank for 6-8 weeks (without fish to parasitize, the ich starves out in that time frame). Continue to feed inverts as appropriate. They'll be fine in there.
Choice two, feed garlic (a food supplement the function of which nobody understands or agrees on) and hope the sick fish doesn't take the rest with him. If they all die, you STILL must leave that tank fishless for 8 weeks to be safe. And quarantine all new purchases.
saltyESQ
New member
couple things:
first, hyposalinity requires you to bring down the salinity to .009 for at least 5 weeks (you can only do this by using a refractometer). Bring down the salinity over a 48 hour period or longer.
Second, you must take out all LR and inverts (before you bring down the salinity). Both LR and inverts will not survive the journey. If you have a deep sandbed, it might also be a problem. I have a 1.5" sand bed and it wasn't a problem.
Third, to be on a safe side I would check you PH daily as the lower salinity can drop your PH. I bought a bottle of PH buffer and had to use it.
fourth, check you salinity daily if you don't have an ATO to keep the salinity below .009.
any questions?
first, hyposalinity requires you to bring down the salinity to .009 for at least 5 weeks (you can only do this by using a refractometer). Bring down the salinity over a 48 hour period or longer.
Second, you must take out all LR and inverts (before you bring down the salinity). Both LR and inverts will not survive the journey. If you have a deep sandbed, it might also be a problem. I have a 1.5" sand bed and it wasn't a problem.
Third, to be on a safe side I would check you PH daily as the lower salinity can drop your PH. I bought a bottle of PH buffer and had to use it.
fourth, check you salinity daily if you don't have an ATO to keep the salinity below .009.
any questions?
I had to use Copper Power twice. It killed the ich in 4 days, but I left it for 30. Follow the instructions. That same rock is used in my 240 where my carpet anemone resides and my 2 tiger cowries. Before I took down the 135 that got hit with the copper (without the anem and tigers in it during dosint) I saw pods in the Emp 400. So, I don't think it kills everything off as suggested....as long as Copper Safe is the same as Copper Power which I used. Formalin 3 is what is supposed to kill everything off from what I read on wwm.
But I'm sure I will be 'corrected' by someone.....it never fails. All I can speak of is what I've done and can attest to.
But I'm sure I will be 'corrected' by someone.....it never fails. All I can speak of is what I've done and can attest to.
chevegan
New member
Ok so another question. Only 7lbs of it is actual live rock which I purchased. The rest was lace rock I've had for a year and a half essentially making it live with benificial bacteria. What I don't get is that copper kills inverts, but how about bacteria? Don't people with wet/dry's use them all the time?
discusone
New member
wow,loaded question.Debates will erupt about this bigtime.
Copper is not for use in the DT.Its use is in a QT,where its theraputic levels can be monitored,adjusted,and if neccessary,removed.
Evidence suggests that copper will slow the nitrification of bacteria.but not kill it off.The bacteria die back some,but are still alive.Their ability to convert ammo to nitrites,then to nitrates are reduced signifcantly.
But bacteria are super tough,and will adjust to the CORRECT,copper levels.Copper is a poison,agreed,but is less so to fish,and to bacteria.Copper treatment is labor intensive,time consuming,and tricky to do correctly.It is not a dump this amount in the tank,and then go about your business.
But,IMO,it is really the only sure way to achieve the truely ick/velvet free tank.I could get into why i will never do hypo again,but thats for another argument filled thread.Good luck!
Copper is not for use in the DT.Its use is in a QT,where its theraputic levels can be monitored,adjusted,and if neccessary,removed.
Evidence suggests that copper will slow the nitrification of bacteria.but not kill it off.The bacteria die back some,but are still alive.Their ability to convert ammo to nitrites,then to nitrates are reduced signifcantly.
But bacteria are super tough,and will adjust to the CORRECT,copper levels.Copper is a poison,agreed,but is less so to fish,and to bacteria.Copper treatment is labor intensive,time consuming,and tricky to do correctly.It is not a dump this amount in the tank,and then go about your business.
But,IMO,it is really the only sure way to achieve the truely ick/velvet free tank.I could get into why i will never do hypo again,but thats for another argument filled thread.Good luck!
Stuart60611
New member
discusone
New member
e55MD,here goes,
I also bought into the theory of hypo in the past.However,i tried the hypo routine on 3 different fish,a PBT,a singapore angel and lastly a white-faced butterfly,which by the way broke my heart when i did not make it through hypo.
Ist problem
h instabiliaty.Trying to maintain a 8.0ph is difficult enough with proper salt water.When you lower the salinity,with fresh water,you lower the PH.Then we try and bring the PH up with additives( take your pick of products),and the PH shots through the roof.OH crap!.Lets bring it back down!You see where i am going?Up,down,Up,down.
2nd issue:Ick surviving through the hypo treatment.I lowered the salinity to the prescibed 1.009 with the singapore angel,while all the time fighting the PH issue.This fish ate Formula Two and shaved mussell the whole ordeal!.After 3 weeks,i SLOWLY brought the salinty back up over 5 days,as i recall.At about 1.021,white spots reappeared!Lets not even think about velvet,which is much tougher than ick to kill off.Did not make it through the attempt to relower the salinity a second time.
I am not the only one who has seen this happen.
3rd issue:Nature designed saltwater fish to live in salt water.We are not talking about mollies or scats here,We are dealing with reef dwelling animals,who recieve a benefit from ocean water.To subject them to unnatural water conditions is suspect.Both the PBT and the white-faced buttrefly stopped eating for me when the salinity in my QT hit 1.014,or there abouts.Who knows what kind of damage was done to internal organs,or,digestion,respiration.?.
So,l can only say,copper is the only sure way,IMHO,to ensure that you do not come home one evening to find that prized fish in your reef tank covered in white spots,or the dreaded yellowish sheen of velvet.Copper treatment is a serious endeavor,not to be taken lightly( and i have been quilty of that,believe me).It takes attention to detail,lots of laobor, and the desire to keep that special fish for many years down the road.Sorry for the rambling on and on.I think this is the longest post of my short 5 years stint of being on RC.Think i will go grap a beer.
I also bought into the theory of hypo in the past.However,i tried the hypo routine on 3 different fish,a PBT,a singapore angel and lastly a white-faced butterfly,which by the way broke my heart when i did not make it through hypo.
Ist problem
h instabiliaty.Trying to maintain a 8.0ph is difficult enough with proper salt water.When you lower the salinity,with fresh water,you lower the PH.Then we try and bring the PH up with additives( take your pick of products),and the PH shots through the roof.OH crap!.Lets bring it back down!You see where i am going?Up,down,Up,down.2nd issue:Ick surviving through the hypo treatment.I lowered the salinity to the prescibed 1.009 with the singapore angel,while all the time fighting the PH issue.This fish ate Formula Two and shaved mussell the whole ordeal!.After 3 weeks,i SLOWLY brought the salinty back up over 5 days,as i recall.At about 1.021,white spots reappeared!Lets not even think about velvet,which is much tougher than ick to kill off.Did not make it through the attempt to relower the salinity a second time.
I am not the only one who has seen this happen.
3rd issue:Nature designed saltwater fish to live in salt water.We are not talking about mollies or scats here,We are dealing with reef dwelling animals,who recieve a benefit from ocean water.To subject them to unnatural water conditions is suspect.Both the PBT and the white-faced buttrefly stopped eating for me when the salinity in my QT hit 1.014,or there abouts.Who knows what kind of damage was done to internal organs,or,digestion,respiration.?.
So,l can only say,copper is the only sure way,IMHO,to ensure that you do not come home one evening to find that prized fish in your reef tank covered in white spots,or the dreaded yellowish sheen of velvet.Copper treatment is a serious endeavor,not to be taken lightly( and i have been quilty of that,believe me).It takes attention to detail,lots of laobor, and the desire to keep that special fish for many years down the road.Sorry for the rambling on and on.I think this is the longest post of my short 5 years stint of being on RC.Think i will go grap a beer.
discusone
New member
saltyESQ,as i sit here pondering this,as we all know,nature is a wonderful machine for adaptation.A parasite designed by nature to feed off a specific host, namely our fish,why would you give this parasite longer to adapt to condtions?
Possibly,in the first couple of days,the parasite might be knocked off alittle,but then would adapt to condtions quickly.Basically says after a few days,"hey this isnt to bad,gee im going to adapt and go feed and reinfest that host fish up there".There is nothing but clean,low salinity water,nice temps,with nothing to stop the parasite to live on.
Possibly,in the first couple of days,the parasite might be knocked off alittle,but then would adapt to condtions quickly.Basically says after a few days,"hey this isnt to bad,gee im going to adapt and go feed and reinfest that host fish up there".There is nothing but clean,low salinity water,nice temps,with nothing to stop the parasite to live on.
JustinReef
New member
I don't know why I get involved with these debates but...
I used to push hypo like there was no tomorrow. I own a bunch of puffers, so hypo was always the way to go as copper can be harmful on scaleless fish. Im through with hypo!
I had my previous tank set up, ich free (or so I thought) for over a year. Never a sign of ich. Nothing introduced without QT. I even QT'd snails, I was so paranoid. I had a nano tank set up to QT corals, snails, crabs, rock, ect. for a month before going into the tank. No fish in the QT...ever. All new fish were QT'd for at least a month. Then I moved. The fish got very, very stressed and what do you know??? ICH! Nothing new had been added to the tank in months. I now agree with those that say ich is present in every tank. Its all about keeping your fish stress free and the tanks levels stable. I DO NOT believe hypo kills ich completely. I used it many times in the past and thought it had eradicated the ich from my system but I doubt it. I think it kills enough of it to get your fish ahead of the game and able to fight it off in the future. So its not a bad thing. I have had fish die in hypo though from what I believe is stress. Im not sure if its a coincidence but out of the 4 triggers I have hypo'd, three have died. Out of the dozen or so puffers I have hypo'd over the years, none have died...so maybe some fish handle it better?
Anyways, my fish got ich during the move. I treated with hypo for 5 weeks and a few fish started to die, so I stopped and they all went back into the tank...about a week later, ich was back worse than ever. So back to the QT for 8 weeks this time. No ich seen after about 2 weeks and the DP was fallow of course. Back into the DP after 8 weeks and about 3 weeks after that, ich! YAY! So freakin 4 months later and a ridiculous amount of stress on my fish (some of which I have had for years) and there is still ich in the tank.
Its now about a month and a half later and most of the fish are doing great except one of my puffers who acts normal but gets spots every few days. I decided to see how well they could fight on their own with optimal water conditions and feeding 3 times a day as much as they want (garlic food). I work from home, so I can monitor them all day long really and they have looked great. I know there is ich in my tank but they all seem to be fighting it off just fine for now. Hopefully they can get through the 11 months...
Im not at all saying people should not QT, this is just my experience now and I have found hypo to be useless. It was way too much work only to see ich come back worse every time.
I used to push hypo like there was no tomorrow. I own a bunch of puffers, so hypo was always the way to go as copper can be harmful on scaleless fish. Im through with hypo!
I had my previous tank set up, ich free (or so I thought) for over a year. Never a sign of ich. Nothing introduced without QT. I even QT'd snails, I was so paranoid. I had a nano tank set up to QT corals, snails, crabs, rock, ect. for a month before going into the tank. No fish in the QT...ever. All new fish were QT'd for at least a month. Then I moved. The fish got very, very stressed and what do you know??? ICH! Nothing new had been added to the tank in months. I now agree with those that say ich is present in every tank. Its all about keeping your fish stress free and the tanks levels stable. I DO NOT believe hypo kills ich completely. I used it many times in the past and thought it had eradicated the ich from my system but I doubt it. I think it kills enough of it to get your fish ahead of the game and able to fight it off in the future. So its not a bad thing. I have had fish die in hypo though from what I believe is stress. Im not sure if its a coincidence but out of the 4 triggers I have hypo'd, three have died. Out of the dozen or so puffers I have hypo'd over the years, none have died...so maybe some fish handle it better?
Anyways, my fish got ich during the move. I treated with hypo for 5 weeks and a few fish started to die, so I stopped and they all went back into the tank...about a week later, ich was back worse than ever. So back to the QT for 8 weeks this time. No ich seen after about 2 weeks and the DP was fallow of course. Back into the DP after 8 weeks and about 3 weeks after that, ich! YAY! So freakin 4 months later and a ridiculous amount of stress on my fish (some of which I have had for years) and there is still ich in the tank.
Its now about a month and a half later and most of the fish are doing great except one of my puffers who acts normal but gets spots every few days. I decided to see how well they could fight on their own with optimal water conditions and feeding 3 times a day as much as they want (garlic food). I work from home, so I can monitor them all day long really and they have looked great. I know there is ich in my tank but they all seem to be fighting it off just fine for now. Hopefully they can get through the 11 months...
Im not at all saying people should not QT, this is just my experience now and I have found hypo to be useless. It was way too much work only to see ich come back worse every time.
discusone
New member
So,justinpsmith,
Just out of curiuosity,if you had been able to treat with copper,do you think you could have established a parasite free tank?
Knowing that you can not rid your fish/tank of parasites,using hypo,and can not use copper because of the sensitive nature of your puffers,chances are you will be restricted to certain fish only,those that fend off parasites easily.What are you left with?
This is a great hobby( what a lame term for what we put ourselfs through).Having a great love for butterflys,i will continue to battle with the illness,the copper dosing,and the hair pulling.Respect to all.
Just out of curiuosity,if you had been able to treat with copper,do you think you could have established a parasite free tank?
Knowing that you can not rid your fish/tank of parasites,using hypo,and can not use copper because of the sensitive nature of your puffers,chances are you will be restricted to certain fish only,those that fend off parasites easily.What are you left with?
This is a great hobby( what a lame term for what we put ourselfs through).Having a great love for butterflys,i will continue to battle with the illness,the copper dosing,and the hair pulling.Respect to all.
JustinReef
New member
Im not sure if I understand what your saying but if your talking salinity, Its 1.009. I actually went to 1.008 for a few weeks with not problems.
