Is my LFS taking me for a ride?

ok just warning you that I had to move all my corals over to this tank since the angels decided that everything was yummy to eat. I have not found a good place for all the corals. They have been in there for 8 months have had no problems with growth. Also can not stress that if you see algae pull it out quick.

emmann
 
also if you wait to add things its easier to clean the rocks of bad algae. Trying to work around corals is really hard.
 
Hoestly, buying a RedSea Max or a JBJ or a BioCube or whatever isn't going to make or break your system. I would suggest a local reef club or craigslist. If going with a used tank make sure the previous owner NEVER used copper to treat fish. Copper in a marine environment will hurt inverts and you may never be totally happy with your tank. If the LFS is really pushing his products as being "better" than anything you bring to him, he's only trying to push a sale. I've got one LFS in town that specifically has told me not to buy "x y & z" from his store because he gets the same stuff at Lowes and uses it on his tank. I know that I can trust him and he won't try and push a sale on something that he doesn't believe in. The other LFS owner has memorized the names of a few fish and has actually sold a $90 Naso tang to a woman who just started her 55G tank. I know that I can't trust him on anything that I don't know from independant research. Let me ask you, does this LFS carry JBJ?
 
I would also look into local reef clubs, and maybe buy a system used? I see great deals on my local clubs forums for all in one nanos like JBJ- some folks are upgrading while others are looking to sell setup, LR, and fish together.
 
From what I read here it seems like you got some reasonable answers form folks here on RC and the LFS. Sure the RO/DI output might have been off but its kinda meaningless.

Overall, I think your question is whether the LFS is treating you right. IMO YES.

You're asking him/her to compare and rate products you found online. I think that might be perceived as a bit of bad taste. LFS are not all bad guys trying to rip us off. I think he gave you excellent customer service by answering your inquiries at all. Its got to hurt a bit to help you out when he/she knows you're asking about products online and not at the store, but he still tried to help. IMO that's the kind of person/retailer I'd try to support. But continue you're research to get the right answers and find what's right for you. You won't even get the correct answer from one single person here so don't get upset if one single LFS gives you a little bit of varied advice or opinion.

If I owned a LFS and someone asked me for opinions on things I was shopping for online vs store items...I'd tell them things that would violate the RC Users Agreement to repeat here.

Maybe I'm just bitter. But I tried to support my LFS's, who may not have had all the answers, but they were here. Online retail put them all out of business and now I'm left with nothing close and know that these guys (some in business for almost 20 years) and who became my friends are struggling to find something else to do.

Support Locally Owned Business!
 
Man I am so glad your getting off on the right foot with so many of us steering you correctly. That LFS would have had you in the wrong direction ad that direction would have been making curled from your house back to them for more costs!
 
Rather than asking your LFS questions about online products, you should ask RC members or the online seller themselves. Many of the online sellers have forums on RC. This would eliminate the concerns expressed by Salamander. What you have to remember is that by shopping online you will have access to way more options than your local LFS can stock. So do your research and buy something that fits your needs and your budget whether that is from a LFS or online.
 
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The LFS gave you good advice. Why do you expect someone to answer questions about products they do not sell. The LFS is not a hobbyist they have bills to pay. Do not ask them about products they don't sell unless you are asking why they don't carry them or if you are asking them to start stocking them. RO units output change drastically with water pressure. If using a booster pump you will yeild closer to the rated gph otherwise it will be less. Sounds like a store I would do business with, but you must be more careful with your questions. Asking a dealer about other dealers products is a bad way to build a business relationship no matter the industry.
 
Hoestly, buying a RedSea Max or a JBJ or a BioCube or whatever isn't going to make or break your system. I would suggest a local reef club or craigslist. If going with a used tank make sure the previous owner NEVER used copper to treat fish. Copper in a marine environment will hurt inverts and you may never be totally happy with your tank. If the LFS is really pushing his products as being "better" than anything you bring to him, he's only trying to push a sale. I've got one LFS in town that specifically has told me not to buy "x y & z" from his store because he gets the same stuff at Lowes and uses it on his tank. I know that I can trust him and he won't try and push a sale on something that he doesn't believe in. The other LFS owner has memorized the names of a few fish and has actually sold a $90 Naso tang to a woman who just started her 55G tank. I know that I can't trust him on anything that I don't know from independant research. Let me ask you, does this LFS carry JBJ?

Thanks for the advice. No he does not carry JBJ
 
From what I read here it seems like you got some reasonable answers form folks here on RC and the LFS. Sure the RO/DI output might have been off but its kinda meaningless.

Overall, I think your question is whether the LFS is treating you right. IMO YES.

You're asking him/her to compare and rate products you found online. I think that might be perceived as a bit of bad taste. LFS are not all bad guys trying to rip us off. I think he gave you excellent customer service by answering your inquiries at all. Its got to hurt a bit to help you out when he/she knows you're asking about products online and not at the store, but he still tried to help. IMO that's the kind of person/retailer I'd try to support. But continue you're research to get the right answers and find what's right for you. You won't even get the correct answer from one single person here so don't get upset if one single LFS gives you a little bit of varied advice or opinion.

If I owned a LFS and someone asked me for opinions on things I was shopping for online vs store items...I'd tell them things that would violate the RC Users Agreement to repeat here.

Maybe I'm just bitter. But I tried to support my LFS's, who may not have had all the answers, but they were here. Online retail put them all out of business and now I'm left with nothing close and know that these guys (some in business for almost 20 years) and who became my friends are struggling to find something else to do.

Support Locally Owned Business!

I understand your point. When I first entered his store, I told him that I found a JBJ with "X" features and free stand for $299. He was very honest and said he could not compete with that. He then went on to say that most of his clients buy their equipment online, and he would be happy as long as we use him for live rock/fish etc. He also told me to please use him as a resource when buying equipment online. He said "I have been in this business a long time and I know what equipment has worked for my clients. If you are considering buying something online, just e-mail me the link and I will let you know if its any good." So I didn't do anything that he didn't ask me to do. This is exactly why I DO want to support him. It was his first e-mail back to me that made me think twice about doing that, since I assumed there was some misinformation in the e-mail. Thats also why I posted everything here, to see if I was wrong or right on that point.
 
The LFS gave you good advice. Why do you expect someone to answer questions about products they do not sell. The LFS is not a hobbyist they have bills to pay. Do not ask them about products they don't sell unless you are asking why they don't carry them or if you are asking them to start stocking them. RO units output change drastically with water pressure. If using a booster pump you will yeild closer to the rated gph otherwise it will be less. Sounds like a store I would do business with, but you must be more careful with your questions. Asking a dealer about other dealers products is a bad way to build a business relationship no matter the industry.

I understand your point. Please see my response to Salamander...
 
If you buy live rock and sand from an established tank it will greatly lower your cycle time. I did this and added fish after one month with no problems. Look into your local reef club and see if somebody will sell you some established live rock and live sand.

Also, take anything your LFS says with a grain of salt. They are, after all, in it for the money...

Also, only use RO/DI water! Do not use tap unless you have an in-house filtration unit that produces very low TDS water. I use RODI in both my FW and SW tanks and it is the only way to go!

Another idea is to buy a small pump and sponge filter and ask your LFS if you can run it in one of their sumps for a week. Then take the filter home and drop it in your tank - voila... instant bacteria transfer.
 
There is nothing wrong with using tap water for the initial fill. However, the term "tap water" is pretty generic. Be sure and use a water treatment to neutralize the chlorine and such in it and you will be fine.

I agree with all the LFS guy said.
 
Just one thing to add..THIS HOBBY IS ALL ABOUT OPINIONS! :) The store owner told you nothing out of line IMO. He said the main cycle..(ie. ammonia spike) would take 7-10 days..probably pretty accurate..would I add a fish at that time no but he wasn't way out of line especially if his live rock is cured. Secondly, RODI units alright he was a little off on the production..not a biggy for me. Thirdly, you really can't expect a person to give you all the answers you want or have preformulated..it just can't be in an opinion based hobby. Fourth, tap water use would depend on the TDS in your area..if it is very low it wouldn't be the end of the world to use it initially..many people use it always. IMO he was trying to save you a bit of time/money and all in all gave you decent advice..
 
Have read through everyone's posts, and just want to add a bit to it.

The use of your "tap" water is subjective. If you live in boston as a for instance(just saw some data on their water, cleanest in the entire country) and your tds is at near 30, and you don't use chlorine, and there's no "junk" in the water, sure. Use some water treatment stuff and your FINE. However, if your tds are 499, the chlorine is through the roof, etc. it would NOT be a good idea to use it. If he is very local(within 1-2 towns from you) he should know the water quality there, and it IS possible for you to use it. If you are further, he may not know what your water is like. If I did not know everything in the tap water, I would not personally use it.

In a 30-gallon, I have to agree, if you want sps or lps corals, you cannot use the "stock" PC lights. I have seen/heard of t5 retro-kits, while that will jump your price up a bit. I'd say 4-t5's.

The LFS, the guys sounds good. He is admitting that he understands the online issue, and seems like a good guy. You can feel free to support him and his store, he is not telling you complete lies, at least that I can see. If you are buying LR from him, and it is cured, you will have little to NO cycle. This can be a little problematic. If he has it, it is only enduring the very short ride in your car home, and very little will die. To some point you need this dieing/cycling. It is what forms the bacteria that will continue to breakdown all ingredients in the cycle. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. You can easily do without much of a cycle, but if you do, your tank won't be AS ready for livestock. When you would add one fish, you would have a mini-cycle. Your tank regularly goes through cycles, it is just that most go un-detected, and for good reason. A mature tank(6 months+) won't even barely show an ammonia spike AT ALL. But every time there is an added bioload(fish poop, food, etc.) there is a cycle. The larger the initial cycle, the less following cycles will be when you add fish. Kinda confusing, I know, but after a little while you will get the hang of it. I have heard a few people speed the cycle a BIT with some fish food. If you have some flake food laying around, throw in 2-3 flakes every day. This will give you a bit more bacteria to work with, and lessen later cycles.

IMO about the RO/DI. Get one, you won't be sorry. Also, I don't think you need something in the 75-gallon range if you are willing to wait. As I have heard the worst thing you can do is rush, I took this advice, and worked out fine for me so well.

I got a 24gpd 3-part system(I think about $100) and Added the DI (for another $49). I just did about a 7-gallon WC to keep my ammonias a little lower during the cycle, and started with about 16 gallons in my 20-gallon brute trash can. Had about 9 gallons left, knowing ROUGHLY 1-GPH, sleep for 8 hours, I had plenty of space for it to run all night. Turned my faucet on, went to sleep, woke up and have about 18 gallons in my drum. That is efficient to me. If I had a 50, I could not go to sleep with it running for only a 20 gallon can. With a 30, I'd suggest more than 24gpd, but a 50 is JUST FINE IMO. Just have a container that holds enough water for about a 90% change at any time when it is needed. By doing this, should there be an emergency, you know you have a FULL water change ready. Just my $.02.
 
If your going to spend $150 on a 24gpd unit spend $167 and get a 75gpd buckeye field supply unit custom built for you by our sponsor here at RC.

Even if I had a 10 gallon tank, a 24gpd unit would just **** me off at a 1 gallon an hour rate.

I can put my 2 5 gallon buckets in the tub turn on my unit, put on a movie and midway thru, I pause the movie and switch containers. When the movie is over I have 10 gallons of rodi water done for a 25% water change.
 
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Thanks

Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone that gave such a quick response. I am new to all of this and it certainly helps to get some outside perspective. In the next couple of weeks I will start a new thread with my new tank! :-)
 
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The RO statement is inaccurate. 75GPD is how much RO water is produced. I find that even the rating can be off. My 75gpd unit will fill a 5 gallon jug in about an hour and a half at 0 TDS. That turns out to be about 125 gpd if left running for a 24 hour period (on paper of course). The point is, a 75 gpd unit should give you far more than the 10-15 he told you it would.

The rest of the info. seems fairly spot-on to me. The answer to the cycling question will depend entirely on the quality of rock and sand he sells you (if you end up buying from him). If all of it is nicely cycled in tanks (some LFS's really do a nice job of this, but you pay a premium) you will virtually have no cycle as the microorganisms you are trying to build up are already prevalent. If it is dry rock shipped in wet newspaper with sand in a bag, you will likely require a much longer cycle. Due to cost I generally like to use 80-90% dead rock in my tanks and seed with the final 10-20% of live. Obviously this process is closer to the 3+ months range that mentioned in your original email. A large part of our initial investment tends to be in the live rock we drop in our tanks and this can be an extremely economical and legitimate "short cut". Again, you do pay for it in cycling time though.
 
The RO statement is inaccurate. 75GPD is how much RO water is produced. I find that even the rating can be off. My 75gpd unit will fill a 5 gallon jug in about an hour and a half at 0 TDS. That turns out to be about 125 gpd if left running for a 24 hour period (on paper of course). The point is, a 75 gpd unit should give you far more than the 10-15 he told you it would.

The rest of the info. seems fairly spot-on to me. The answer to the cycling question will depend entirely on the quality of rock and sand he sells you (if you end up buying from him). If all of it is nicely cycled in tanks (some LFS's really do a nice job of this, but you pay a premium) you will virtually have no cycle as the microorganisms you are trying to build up are already prevalent. If it is dry rock shipped in wet newspaper with sand in a bag, you will likely require a much longer cycle. Due to cost I generally like to use 80-90% dead rock in my tanks and seed with the final 10-20% of live. Obviously this process is closer to the 3+ months range that mentioned in your original email. A large part of our initial investment tends to be in the live rock we drop in our tanks and this can be an extremely economical and legitimate "short cut". Again, you do pay for it in cycling time though.

Here is the latest quote from my LFS...

We deal with the largest importer of ro products in the country, and they put this model together per my designs. I actually have designed a mini 100gpd RO unit too, and before Laura and I started the store we sold them on the net. I am an expert when it comes to ro/di and I can assure you that no 100 gallon per day membrane produces 100 gallons in a day. That is completely false and obviously the people are not versed in how they rate units. For a system that would produce that much in 24hrs would require a much larger membrane. In home models, 150-200 gallon per day membranes are about the largest that are available. A NEW 100 gallon per day membrane will produce about 3-4 gallons about every 2 hours, and of course this depends on the pressure of the incoming unit, the TDS of the tap water and the amount the filters have already absorbed. Water that comes out a unit like that is about the same flow rate as an IV drip. Your unit will produce faster when it is new, and output will decrease as the filters become more and more saturated. On average it is about a 4:1 ratio of waste to purified water.
 
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