webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
Is my tank ready to support a BTA? I am starting to get manjo ananemes in a few places. So will a BTA thrive if manjos are thriving?
Is my tank ready for a BTA
- Thread starter webslinger
- Start date
webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
What is a good indicator? My paramaters are great. Lighting is good. I havent lost a coral or fish yet they are all thriving and growing. It went through the alge stages and have some coraline growth. My skimate went from a constant green the first few months to a constant dark tea color lately.
raythepilot
Member
It depends on what is in your tank and how much maintenance you do.
Nems are killed by NH4 levels below what you can test for; so, no test is going to give you the answer.
The question is... How much NH4 is your tank producing and how much is your system taking out?
If you have no fish in your tank and you do 100% water change a day, you can put your nem in the tank as soon as you set it up and it gets to the right temperature.
Otherwise you need plants/bacteria to convert NH4 to NO3.
While bacteria and fast growing algae will reduce NH4; to get to the really low level you need for nems, you need the slow growing coralline algae. These take a while to grow and the more fish you have giving off waste, the longer it takes to get enough.
If you have no fish in your tank and do 20% water changes per week you can put a nem in after 1 month. For each fish you add, add one month.
SwampyBill
New member
Not sure where you're pulling this info out of, but it's totally false. :thumbdown
Nems need a stable mature tank at least 6 months old to thrive. What are your water parameters in numbers (not just 'they're all great'), how long has your tank been running & what kind of lights do you have over it? Majanos have no bearing on whether your tank can sustain any other types of anemone. Just nuke those suckers w/ a syringe of boiling water or lemon juice.
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raythepilot
Member
Gee! I've been keeping BTA for five years. Bifurcate them regularly. Give away a few every year. Regularly keep them in holding tanks that have been just set up with no bio-filter or anything except an aerator. (The temp. is held constant by a thermal bath).
What you need is good water not old water. If you do 100% water change every day you always have good water.
BTW I never check water parameters except salinity. If you do large volume water changes you parameter will remain the same.... forever. (Kind of like a real reef).
SwampyBill
New member
OP is asking for good, general info on keeping an anemone in their tank; not experimental practices & theories. Congrats on your success with dissecting nems in your controlled environment w/ 100% water changes, etc. Of course good water changes & keeping best parameters possible is key to a healthy nem & tank, but the average hobbyist isn't going to be doing 100% water changes. Putting a nem (or any living creature) in a day old tank, while only monitoring temp, or waiting a month after every fish addition is totally off base & bad info for any hobbyist.
webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
I do a 5 gallon waterchange every week my tanks is 60g. My nh4 level is at 0 and I have never seen it above that once cycled. I have 6 small fish a few softies and some zoas/polyps. So you are saying I should wait until the coraline really takes off? Right now i have it on the powerheads, several spots on the back glass an it is growning on a couple mature rocks. What about tempature? How much can it fluctuate?
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raythepilot
Member
Temperature range is whatever the heater can maintain. That is about 25.5C in the winter and 28.5C in the summer.
When changing water, I make sure the new water is within +/- 0.2C.
Just so you know your NH4 test does not have enough sensitivity to detect the level of NH4 that is toxic to nems.
raythepilot
Member
I guess then that everyone is really successful keeping anemone doing the same old thing.
Think about this:
Why do you wait a month or any length of time to put fish into your tank?
I could be wrong but I think it is to establish an acceptable bio filtration system to convert NH4 to NO3. Is that the idea behind the general practice?
How about this: instead of waiting for the bio filter to ramp up, you just throw away all the bad water each day and replace it with good water?
How high will NH4 get or how low will Ca+ get?
Now I may be stupid, but I tell people that I would never drink any water that was flushed down my toilet no matter what bio-filter they use at the treatment plant. The only way I would use it was if it came back as rain.
Now you are saying that the water from the sewerage treatment plant is OK. That may be true for some things and people but that is not good enough for me. I believe in new water, not recycled water.
One more important point:
I said that my replacement water is 35.0+/-0.1 ppt and the temperature must be +/- 0.2C before I use it. Having the correct salinity is very important when doing large volume water changes.
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webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
Doing a daily 100% water change is unrealistic. So if my tank is 6 months old, what amount of water changes would I need to do weekly to support a healty nem. Right now I do about 10% and everything is going good.
raythepilot
Member
How big is your tank?
webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
60gallon cube
raythepilot
Member
Doing 30 gal per week would be difficult!
OK what is your bio-load.
How many inches of fish do you have? IE. 1 fish @ 3" (3" total) + 2 fish @ 2" (4" total) = 7" of fish.
What other inverts do you have and how big?
How long ago did you add a fish/invert
What is your system?
Do you have a sump?
How much live rock do you have?
Do you have any macro algae growing in your tank?
You have already said your tank has been up for 6 months and is OK.
I'm not 100% sure that even with this info I could give you an absolute answer but your answers will help.
OK what is your bio-load.
How many inches of fish do you have? IE. 1 fish @ 3" (3" total) + 2 fish @ 2" (4" total) = 7" of fish.
What other inverts do you have and how big?
How long ago did you add a fish/invert
What is your system?
Do you have a sump?
How much live rock do you have?
Do you have any macro algae growing in your tank?
You have already said your tank has been up for 6 months and is OK.
I'm not 100% sure that even with this info I could give you an absolute answer but your answers will help.
webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
I have 7 in of fish, a small cleaner shrimp and CUC of snails and hermits crabs (15 total) .
I added a fish about 2 months ago.
The sump is 15g and has a filter sock, skimmer, and refuge filled with cheato. No marco in DT
There is 75lbs of very porous rock.
Water movement is at about 1500 total about 600 through fuge.
I added a fish about 2 months ago.
The sump is 15g and has a filter sock, skimmer, and refuge filled with cheato. No marco in DT
There is 75lbs of very porous rock.
Water movement is at about 1500 total about 600 through fuge.
raythepilot
Member
I'd change 5 gal / week get your nem and see how it goes. You should be OK.
BTW you need about 2000 LUX / 40 PAR light at the base of your tank to support a BTA.
One more thing. Cover all intakes with double screens and netting. Everyone loses all or part of their first nem when it gets sucked into an intake.
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SwampyBill
New member
1--Yes, tried & true methods seem to work best in maintaining a healthy saltwater tank & getting nems to thrive--a stable mature tank at least 6 mos. old, good lighting, & regular water changes are all important.
2--Of course that's the general rule of thumb.
3--As stated earlier, regular weekly or bi-weekly (sometimes monthly) water changes are important for a healthy tank; but changing 100% of water daily is unrealistic for most hobbyists.
4--Too many variable to say for sure---how many fish in tank, what food is used & how often is tank fed, amount of water changed wkly, bi-wkly or monthly, how many corals in tank depleting the Ca+, & how much nutrient dosing is done.
5--A no brainer...
6--I've NEVER said to use sewerage treatment plant water; always advocating a good RO/DI unit or buying pre-made water from LFS.
7--I've known people keeping nems healthy in 77--81 degree temps. I agree, stable salinity is important for maintaining healthy life in a saltwater tank.
OP, you might want to double your water changes to 10gal a week in preparation for a new nem. What lighting do you have over your tank?
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webslinger
Friendly Neighborhood
LED lighting
Dapg8gt
New member
Whoa there is some mis-information floating in this thread lol..
(quote I echo this =)
OP is asking for good, general info on keeping an anemone in their tank; not experimental practices & theories. Congrats on your success with dissecting nems in your controlled environment w/ 100% water changes, etc. Of course good water changes & keeping best parameters possible is key to a healthy nem & tank, but the average hobbyist isn't going to be doing 100% water changes. Putting a nem (or any living creature) in a day old tank, while only monitoring temp, or waiting a month after every fish addition is totally off base & bad info for any hobbyist.(end quote)
The 6 month mark is kinda a buffer zone for most new tanks to become stable and have the biological means to handle things you throw at them imo. It's really dependant on your particular tank and skill level to say it's ready. Taking advice like it's law from someone who claims to be a master yet says he never tests his/her parameters and reccomends things most others do not is gambling (no offense).
If your tank is running consistent temp, salinity, cal/alk/mag, and lower p04/n03 levels without swings I say go for it. If you have coraline growing you should be able to keep a nem imo as long as light and flow are covered. All my opinions though so take it as that..
(quote I echo this =)
OP is asking for good, general info on keeping an anemone in their tank; not experimental practices & theories. Congrats on your success with dissecting nems in your controlled environment w/ 100% water changes, etc. Of course good water changes & keeping best parameters possible is key to a healthy nem & tank, but the average hobbyist isn't going to be doing 100% water changes. Putting a nem (or any living creature) in a day old tank, while only monitoring temp, or waiting a month after every fish addition is totally off base & bad info for any hobbyist.(end quote)
The 6 month mark is kinda a buffer zone for most new tanks to become stable and have the biological means to handle things you throw at them imo. It's really dependant on your particular tank and skill level to say it's ready. Taking advice like it's law from someone who claims to be a master yet says he never tests his/her parameters and reccomends things most others do not is gambling (no offense).
If your tank is running consistent temp, salinity, cal/alk/mag, and lower p04/n03 levels without swings I say go for it. If you have coraline growing you should be able to keep a nem imo as long as light and flow are covered. All my opinions though so take it as that..
I have a similar setup to the poster with 5 BTAs in the tank so I will attempt to explain the environment.
My tank has 5 fish but 4 are aggressive eaters and they are all in the 2-3.5" range. I feed them twice a day with pellets and once with rods reef food. Because of this heavy feeding regimen I change 20 gallons every 10 days.
My tank consists mostly of LPS which I spot feed with my BTAs once a week on top of my daily feeding routine. I have 2 tunze 6045 adjusted to push ~1800gph through the display which I consider to be low flow however I only have about 40lbs of totoka live rock (in the DT another 35lbs in sump) so I avoid issues with dead spots. Return pump pushes roughly 700gph into the tank after loss from head height.
I run a single kessil a350w tuna blue (100% blue 35% white) 6" from the water with my rock stacks starting about 12" below the water surface. Most of my nems are at this height in order to maximize flow across the oral disk and maximize light absorption.
I started my tank with dry rock to avoid parasites. The rock was first in a DI fresh water bath in order to leech out phosphates. Once the tank was filled I spiked the ammonia to 1.75ppm and finished my first cycle in 8 days. First animal in was a captive raised clown (I always add these first as I feel it is more responsible environmentally plus I will keep clowns and captive raised fish seem to be much hardier) added at the 2 week mark.
My first anemone was a Rose Bubble that was a clone and was added at the 4 month mark. However my parameters had been consistent (will list params lower) for the previous 2 months. I feel clones tend to acclimate better and that roses seem to handle lower light slightly better (green zooaxnthelle and red have different spectrum needs). I always recommend captive raised whenever possible.
Now, I added mine a little early but I have been doing this for 5 years and also spent a good portion of that time as a manager at Petco while waiting for my wife to finish law school so that I could finish up my degree (Not the best place for saltwater animals but I did get first hand experience with numerous different specimens, plus we had a survival rate as high as any of the LFS). Because of that experience I felt comfortable with adding early because I knew when and how to fix water params or to pull the nem and rehome if necessary.
Usually your best choice is not to wait exactly 4 months, 6 months, a year, etc. but instead to get a feel for your tank and to keep a log of your parameters. If your log shows consistency (as in your params are essentially identical) for a decent period of time (1-3 months is actually short in this hobby) then you are likely ok for a BTA as they are hardier than most nems. Just keep in mind that good equipment is necessary as a tank realistically needs at least a year to truly mature and that quality equipment (Skimmer, pumps, carbon/phosphate reactors, lighting, etc.) will help you take control of fluctuations and die off that might spike your parameters.
Also keep in mind that large fish (5+" in a 60) make keeping nems difficult as their death (these are living creatures you always have to assume its a possibility) while you aren't home can crash a system with anemones very quickly because of decomposition. I strongly recommend waiting until your tank is fully matured if you have one.
Now for my parameters (checked with salifert) with what I consider ideal in parenthesis
-My nitrates run 5-10 never higher nor lower (0)
-Haven't had ammonia or nitrites in my tank since the first two weeks and would never add a nem if there was a chance they had been present at noticeable levels (0)
-Phosphates .05-.06 (.03)
-Alkalinity 8.5-9 (8-12 is good but make sure it stays consistently in a .5 range, keeping at 12 is probably better with nems because the stronger buffer should keep pH more consistent)
-Calcium 420-440 and Magnesium 1350-1450 (420 and 1350 main things is to keep these in balance relative to each other to avoid pH issues)
-pH 8.2 but I rarely check this, if your calc, mag and alk are correct using a good salt mix and buffer then this should stay consistent and chasing a perfect pH can kill your tank.
To me the real trick is to use a quality salt (i.e. not plain instant ocean) and RO/DI water. Tap water and poorly made RO water can make life difficult for your nem.
Based on what you have said about your tank I would guess it is not ready for a BTA. Your outbreak of mojanos likely means there is a high nutrient level in your tank. Also if you kill off a substantial number of them at once it will spike your nitrate levels in your tank (dead things decompose) which could severely stress a new nem. Also 1500gph in your display is going to be low especially with that amount of live rock as it will likely create dead spots (more porous means it takes up even more room and likely more dead spots as a result). Describing parameters as perfect and live rock as porous gives me the impression that you are getting a lot of your info from your LFS (which is not bad) but remember that they want to sell you things and I would strongly recommend testing your water yourself and keeping track of your parameters so that you can see if your tank is mature enough for a BTA.
When you are ready for a BTA remember to have covers on your powerhead as they do occasionally walk. Also they like to have their foot in a dark and low flow area with their disk stretching out into high light and high flow. I have been able to place each of my nems into the tank and have them stay where I put them which I feel is important to do so that they don't end up under a rock getting no light or in a powerhead dead or next to a coral stinging it to death.
Info needed to tell you where you are at in terms of getting a BTA and having success.
1) how long has the tank been running
2) what are your nitrates, phosphates, calc, alk, mag and how often do you check them (I know you said 0 on nitrates but that seems somewhat unrealistic with a new tank with seven fish, also what test kit was this with)
3) what kind of fish do you have (how aggressively they eat and how big they get can play a major role, especially since certain fish such as wrasse will steal food directly from anemones)
4) What kind of LEDs do you have, no two fixtures are alike. LEDs that are too powerful will bleach the nem, ones that are too weak will starve it. To be safe they should at least be dimmable for acclimation (point lighting like LEDs can quickly kill if not careful). Also where in the tank will the nem go, remember that a 60 cube is 2 foot deep and that water will quickly lower the strength of the light as it penetrates.
As for water changes I would at least do 10 gallons every week to 10 days. Depending on coral load possibly do larger if you are not dosing. Corals and inverts (also certain macros) will drain calc, alk, mag and other elements/compounds found in your salt and cause fluctuations in your tank. Water changes are not only for nutrient removal but also help keep the stability of your non organic compounds.
As for water temp 74-82 farenheit is safe with fluctuations of no more than 1 degree daily and 3 degrees in a week (if you are trying to get to a new temp, for instance I dropped my temp by 4 degrees when I added a trachyphyllia) but don't change your temp often.
Anyways this seems like a lot of info but nems are tricky and a dead one can easily ruin a tank your size. In my experience there are very few absolute truths in this hobby but there are best practices. Consistent testing, regular water changes and quality equipment really make a difference. One thing I have learned is that short cuts tend to lead people to quitting the hobby. I have had more than one person tell me that they gave up the hobby after crashing their tank and 99% of the time it is because they tried to cut corners.
My tank has 5 fish but 4 are aggressive eaters and they are all in the 2-3.5" range. I feed them twice a day with pellets and once with rods reef food. Because of this heavy feeding regimen I change 20 gallons every 10 days.
My tank consists mostly of LPS which I spot feed with my BTAs once a week on top of my daily feeding routine. I have 2 tunze 6045 adjusted to push ~1800gph through the display which I consider to be low flow however I only have about 40lbs of totoka live rock (in the DT another 35lbs in sump) so I avoid issues with dead spots. Return pump pushes roughly 700gph into the tank after loss from head height.
I run a single kessil a350w tuna blue (100% blue 35% white) 6" from the water with my rock stacks starting about 12" below the water surface. Most of my nems are at this height in order to maximize flow across the oral disk and maximize light absorption.
I started my tank with dry rock to avoid parasites. The rock was first in a DI fresh water bath in order to leech out phosphates. Once the tank was filled I spiked the ammonia to 1.75ppm and finished my first cycle in 8 days. First animal in was a captive raised clown (I always add these first as I feel it is more responsible environmentally plus I will keep clowns and captive raised fish seem to be much hardier) added at the 2 week mark.
My first anemone was a Rose Bubble that was a clone and was added at the 4 month mark. However my parameters had been consistent (will list params lower) for the previous 2 months. I feel clones tend to acclimate better and that roses seem to handle lower light slightly better (green zooaxnthelle and red have different spectrum needs). I always recommend captive raised whenever possible.
Now, I added mine a little early but I have been doing this for 5 years and also spent a good portion of that time as a manager at Petco while waiting for my wife to finish law school so that I could finish up my degree (Not the best place for saltwater animals but I did get first hand experience with numerous different specimens, plus we had a survival rate as high as any of the LFS). Because of that experience I felt comfortable with adding early because I knew when and how to fix water params or to pull the nem and rehome if necessary.
Usually your best choice is not to wait exactly 4 months, 6 months, a year, etc. but instead to get a feel for your tank and to keep a log of your parameters. If your log shows consistency (as in your params are essentially identical) for a decent period of time (1-3 months is actually short in this hobby) then you are likely ok for a BTA as they are hardier than most nems. Just keep in mind that good equipment is necessary as a tank realistically needs at least a year to truly mature and that quality equipment (Skimmer, pumps, carbon/phosphate reactors, lighting, etc.) will help you take control of fluctuations and die off that might spike your parameters.
Also keep in mind that large fish (5+" in a 60) make keeping nems difficult as their death (these are living creatures you always have to assume its a possibility) while you aren't home can crash a system with anemones very quickly because of decomposition. I strongly recommend waiting until your tank is fully matured if you have one.
Now for my parameters (checked with salifert) with what I consider ideal in parenthesis
-My nitrates run 5-10 never higher nor lower (0)
-Haven't had ammonia or nitrites in my tank since the first two weeks and would never add a nem if there was a chance they had been present at noticeable levels (0)
-Phosphates .05-.06 (.03)
-Alkalinity 8.5-9 (8-12 is good but make sure it stays consistently in a .5 range, keeping at 12 is probably better with nems because the stronger buffer should keep pH more consistent)
-Calcium 420-440 and Magnesium 1350-1450 (420 and 1350 main things is to keep these in balance relative to each other to avoid pH issues)
-pH 8.2 but I rarely check this, if your calc, mag and alk are correct using a good salt mix and buffer then this should stay consistent and chasing a perfect pH can kill your tank.
To me the real trick is to use a quality salt (i.e. not plain instant ocean) and RO/DI water. Tap water and poorly made RO water can make life difficult for your nem.
Based on what you have said about your tank I would guess it is not ready for a BTA. Your outbreak of mojanos likely means there is a high nutrient level in your tank. Also if you kill off a substantial number of them at once it will spike your nitrate levels in your tank (dead things decompose) which could severely stress a new nem. Also 1500gph in your display is going to be low especially with that amount of live rock as it will likely create dead spots (more porous means it takes up even more room and likely more dead spots as a result). Describing parameters as perfect and live rock as porous gives me the impression that you are getting a lot of your info from your LFS (which is not bad) but remember that they want to sell you things and I would strongly recommend testing your water yourself and keeping track of your parameters so that you can see if your tank is mature enough for a BTA.
When you are ready for a BTA remember to have covers on your powerhead as they do occasionally walk. Also they like to have their foot in a dark and low flow area with their disk stretching out into high light and high flow. I have been able to place each of my nems into the tank and have them stay where I put them which I feel is important to do so that they don't end up under a rock getting no light or in a powerhead dead or next to a coral stinging it to death.
Info needed to tell you where you are at in terms of getting a BTA and having success.
1) how long has the tank been running
2) what are your nitrates, phosphates, calc, alk, mag and how often do you check them (I know you said 0 on nitrates but that seems somewhat unrealistic with a new tank with seven fish, also what test kit was this with)
3) what kind of fish do you have (how aggressively they eat and how big they get can play a major role, especially since certain fish such as wrasse will steal food directly from anemones)
4) What kind of LEDs do you have, no two fixtures are alike. LEDs that are too powerful will bleach the nem, ones that are too weak will starve it. To be safe they should at least be dimmable for acclimation (point lighting like LEDs can quickly kill if not careful). Also where in the tank will the nem go, remember that a 60 cube is 2 foot deep and that water will quickly lower the strength of the light as it penetrates.
As for water changes I would at least do 10 gallons every week to 10 days. Depending on coral load possibly do larger if you are not dosing. Corals and inverts (also certain macros) will drain calc, alk, mag and other elements/compounds found in your salt and cause fluctuations in your tank. Water changes are not only for nutrient removal but also help keep the stability of your non organic compounds.
As for water temp 74-82 farenheit is safe with fluctuations of no more than 1 degree daily and 3 degrees in a week (if you are trying to get to a new temp, for instance I dropped my temp by 4 degrees when I added a trachyphyllia) but don't change your temp often.
Anyways this seems like a lot of info but nems are tricky and a dead one can easily ruin a tank your size. In my experience there are very few absolute truths in this hobby but there are best practices. Consistent testing, regular water changes and quality equipment really make a difference. One thing I have learned is that short cuts tend to lead people to quitting the hobby. I have had more than one person tell me that they gave up the hobby after crashing their tank and 99% of the time it is because they tried to cut corners.
