Is our hobby driving the horror?

[axepilot]

I'm a noob here at RC, but a long time marine fish keeper. I've been lurking here for the past few days and I've noticed many threads and replies about the poor conditions at LFS's, the plight of the reefs, and general angst over the care of fish.

Once again, is our hobby driving the horror? Are we contributing to wild reefs being fragged out? Are contributing to all of the local horrors at LFS's?

From a purely analytical standpoint, a market cannot survive without a demand. That as a given, with no demand for corals, fishes, etc, there would be no livestock sold at LFS's, and hence no more horrors.

I submit that we, ourselves as hobbyists, are a major part of the problem.....................

Food for thought...........................

That said, I love this hobby. I am a very reponsible keeper and I go to great lengths to ensure the care and well being of the citizens in my tank. If we are to continue this hobby, we have to accept the good with the bad. I only patronize LFS's that take care of their stock. I can't cry over bad conditions at another LFS, the plight of the reefs, etc.

If I did, I would feel morally bound to quit this hobby.


Something to mull over in quiet moments....

 

[axepilot]

Hmmm....................

Eight looks and no takers? Nobody wants to broach this subject?

 

[jiggy]

hobbyists cause minimal damage to the environment, if any at all. we are actually helping through propogation and fragging corals in our home aquariums.
what ur talking about is like trying to blame people who own parrots for the deterioration of the natural populations in the amazon and not blame deforestation.

and when it comes to lfs, i dont think we fuel the fire. if we boycott, some kids that dont know anything will buy the fish.

 

[axepilot]

Just what I thought would happen - none of us want to admit to possibly being part of the problem that some of us wring our hands and cry about..............................


Bottom line - it's a hobby that involves live animals. The LFS's see that stock as product - plain and simple. Some are better, some are worse in their care of the stock. Choose your LFS carefully.................................................


................................but please don't petition a hue and cry over the plight of the poor animals. Not every merchant is as caring as the next. LFS's don't need to provide a 100 gallon tank for their yellow tangs. They're not keeping them, they're selling them in hopes that the product will move.

Cry not for the yellow tangs, the corals, etc - unless you don't buy them or keep a tank............................


We are the force that drives the market, whether we can admit that to ourselves or not.............

 

[axepilot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7046397#post7046397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jiggy
hobbyists cause minimal damage to the environment, if any at all. we are actually helping through propogation and fragging corals in our home aquariums.
what ur talking about is like trying to blame people who own parrots for the deterioration of the natural populations in the amazon and not blame deforestation.

and when it comes to lfs, i dont think we fuel the fire. if we boycott, some kids that dont know anything will buy the fish.

No. I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here. I just see a conflict between those that keep a tank while they bemoan the process of providing them their livestock. It is what it is.

 

[mahoneyc3]

excelent topic

excelent topic

i beilve that you have a very valid point, but consider this, with world wide bleaching of reefs and the polution of the oceans become more of a problem every day, maybe this hobby is the only thing that will be able to save the animals we love, also anyone worried about this should check out garf.org its a great site.
thanks- chris

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Do some research

I've been to a lot of islands, they either catch the fish to eat, or sell them to eat. Or they are caught to be shipped somewhere else to be eaten

There isn't a good answer. The world is changing, the reefs are changing, for the worse it appears. Large worldwide weather events are happening that totally eclipse any effect we may have

And tanks may very well be the only place to see some corals one day

There are bad & good pet stores whenever animals are involved
What about minks that are raised in cages for their fur?
Wholesale slaughter of cows, chickens, pigs for food?
What, they aren't kept as pets so they don't count?

 

[Daytymer]

I agree that we contribute. It is a supply/demand thing. Think too, how many times have you heard someone say they bought a dying fish/coral to "save it from a horrific death" from the LFS. Come on guys, the stores aren't stupid. They know darn good and well that one of us is going to feel sympathethic or challenged enough to want to buy the less than perfect specimen. And since they know that we will buy, they continue to provide them to us. A perfect example is currently at one of my LFS. They had an order of corals come in and one of the pieces was a lobophylia brain. It had punctured the bag and came in dry. Out of 4-5 heads only one is still living and that is only because the LFS has really put a lot of effort into saving it. With that said, they do have it up for sale to try and recoup their cost. It will sell one day, to the right buyer. **Side note**The store I'm referring to has immaculate tanks and beautifully kept specimens. The fact that they were able to save this brain is an example of that.

So yes, we are responsible. I am a responsible reefkeeper in the sense that I do everything I can to make sure my inhabitants are healthy and thriving. Have I personally damaged the worlds ecosystem? Technically yes, because I have purchased wild caught specimens. Am I the sole cause.. no. In the grand scheme of things, my purchases are the size of the grains of sand in the ocean. My contribution to the decline of the ocean doesn't really throw one parameter out of wack. Now, all the crap that get's spilled or dumped in there... that is another story.

 

[RobbyG]

No simple answer to your question, bleaching is killing reefs and Global warming is killing reefs. The Aquarium trade contributes a very small fraction to the overall amount of wasted fish deaths per year.

So long as the hobby remains small it's not a great impact, but if it should ever become cheaper, easier and more popular, the reefs would be devastated. The LFS I have met for the most part did not seem to be helping the situation, the low prices that wholesalers charge them for fish versus the high price they sell for makes for a really poor system.

Even though the educated reefers know what to avoid and shops only at good LFS, for every person like that the bad LFS will find 5 others who just plunk down their money.

 

[Mogrash]

Re: Is our hobby driving the horror?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7046055#post7046055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by axepilot
I'm a noob here at RC, but a long time marine fish keeper. I've been lurking here for the past few days and I've noticed many threads and replies about the poor conditions at LFS's, the plight of the reefs, and general angst over the care of fish.

Once again, is our hobby driving the horror?

Which horror? 'the horror' is rather non-specific...

Are we contributing to wild reefs being fragged out?

Insignificant compared to natural fragging that occurs during storms/natural disasters/coral eating fish/boating etc..

Are contributing to all of the local horrors at LFS's?

Only if you are an irresponsible/uneducated buyer that supports poorly run and maintained LFS. If you buy something at a poorly run LFS then yes you contribute to them staying in business...but that's obvious, no?

From a purely analytical standpoint, a market cannot survive without a demand. That as a given, with no demand for corals, fishes, etc, there would be no livestock sold at LFS's, and hence no more horrors.

Define horror please? These aren't domesticated animals and as such are subject to survival of the fittest to the nth degree. They are part of the food chain. From corals through to coral eating fish up to the sharks that eat the coral eating fish. Is it a horror that millions of fish die each day to...other fish? Does it become more of a horrow when I eat my Cod or Rainbow Trout? I don't think so. I'm an animal just like the fish. I'm part of that great circle of life thing. Now, if I was to buy a fish then torture it because I'm a human and capable of sick twisted things then....well.

Of course I have also seen fish pick on each other until one of them is dead. That's nature.

I submit that we, ourselves as hobbyists, are a major part of the problem.....................

I submit that generalizing that all hobbyists are part of a problem is disrespectful to the many that are respectful to our pets. While some hobbyists do help keep bad LFS in business, the generalization that we as hobbyists and as an industry as a whole has any sort of impact compared to the other problems and environmental factors on the oceans and reefs is seriously misguided.

That said, I love this hobby. I am a very reponsible keeper and I go to great lengths to ensure the care and well being of the citizens in my tank. If we are to continue this hobby, we have to accept the good with the bad. I only patronize LFS's that take care of their stock. I can't cry over bad conditions at another LFS, the plight of the reefs, etc.

Based on this statement I totally do not understand why you even posted this?

Please understand. The hobby does not drive the horror. People drive the horror. People that support bad LFS. That is akin to saying guns kill people. No, people kill people.

But this is nothing new. People can't take care of cats, dogs, goldfish. But to dwell why the majority of people give a rats arse about animals and each other is to waste ones time.

 

[jobiwan]

I've seen great improvements in the last 30 years, back then decorative coral was blasted out of reefs with dynamite and cyanide collection was the norm. The awareness our hobby has generated more than makes up for wild collecting IMHO, if you want to you can join a local club and stock your tank totally with frags, that is a wonderful trend, not only are we sparing the reefs more and more, we are getting livestock that is already acclimated to captive husbandry, nothing like watching a $100.00 wild coral slowly die in your tank to make you a believer in frag swapping....

 

[Seadogs]

I'm a noob and I am still learning a lot. As far as neglectful LFS, are they any different than puppy mills? As a pure bred Scottish Terrier owner, I love the breed and HATE puppy mills and the people (and stores) that support them. But, I fully support responsible breeders that care for their animals for the love of the breed. I know, dogs are domesticated and reefs are not. But, if it weren't for the people who love the reefs and all the life therein, the people in this hobby, wouldn't their be less support for responsible reef keeping, leaving only irresponsible stores and people buying "Nemos and Dorys" and a 10 gal. tank because their kids throw a fit in the pet store?
Just my two cents worth.

 

[Anthozoan]

Also, keep in mind the educational value of being able to have a reef aquarium in our homes DOES count for something. How many guests to your house have seen your tank and asked a question or was awed to actually see a LIVE coral up close? It may not save the reefs, but it does count for something. And while the reef hobby isn't 100% science, remeber that science for as long as it has existed has required thousands of sacrificed living organisms in order to better understand them. Scientists rely just as much on "trial and error" and good luck as an average aquarist trying to do the best to keep their expensive pets alive.

As an aside, I hope you realize just how BAD of a track record public aquariums have in regards to keeping fish and corals alive. When a new aquarium opens, inevitably upper management will demand that the tanks be as chock-a-block full as they ever will, and the tanks usually haven't cycled all the way. This means quite often massive mortality that the tourist may never see, but as a collector for public aquariums, they go through a LOT of FISH. The situation is further compounded by the fact that these marine biologists like to sit up on their high horses and think that they know more than you lowly hobbyist, and don't respond as well to constructive criticism as many newbies in a LFS will. When a fish dies under their supervision, it doesn't come out of their paycheck. A hobbyist, on the other hand is going to change his methods real fast when he starts losing hundred of dollars of livestock every month. I don't want to generalize too much here either. Clearly there are great marine biologists at public aquariums, just as there are hobbyists who will never learn. Public aquariums are forever indebted to the ground breaking work of hobbyists in learning how to keep corals alive. And hobbyists have learned a lot from those at public aquariums (thank you Bruce Carlson). But is important not to put anyone too high above the ethics and morality that come with being responsible for keeping an animal alive.

Yes we are part of the problem, but we are also part of the briney solution...

 

[Thales]

I think the hobby does have impact - it has to as we are taking more from the reef than we are putting back. What bothers me most is the amount of death that occurs before the animals get to the hobbyist.
I think the hobby is too cheap. Fish prices haven't changed significantly in the last 20 years. FWIU, European markets pay double than US markets.
The bulk of hobbyists are uninformed/uneducated, and seem more interested in low prices than in quality, healthy animals. I think that even often applies to hobbyists that are informed and educated. People want to pay as little as possible for what they want.
I don't know if I agree about the overall impact of reeftanks as education, as that argument doesn't work with other animals.

I think being part of the hobby at all drives 'the horror', but I don't really know how bad a thing that is.

 

[GreshamH]

FWIW, the EU seems to pay more for just about everything though Lefty Just look a gas

 

[Thales]

Quit stalking me!



I wasn't going to bring that up! I think we should pay more for gas too, but thats lounge talk!

 

[45commando]

"Is our hobby driving the horror?"
I don't think so,when you compare what we,as a group take from the reef;compared to say a single "A" bomb test carried out by the French-amidst much protesting-at ,I believe Bikini Atoll,just a few years agr what about any time a new marina is constructed at a tropical resort.If there was/is a reef,then it is soon destroyed to make a channel for the boats/ships.
Are we the horror-I don't think so,but if mankind keeps on doing what we do,the reef hobbyists might be the only solution the reefs have.

 

[saltfever]

Without us reefers the wonder of the reefs might be lost to our kids,grand kids ...... In 10 or 20 years are there going to be natural reefs? With the way thing are going no! Polution, global warming,storms, careless boaters and divers....... take more of a toll in a year or two then reefers have in the past 10 years. Responsible reefers that do everything they can to get captive breed fish and captive raised corals that is the future. Frag buying and traiding are responsibly ways to fill a reef tank. Without us our kids grand kids...... may never see the reef creatures we love. Because it is a very real posibility the wild reefs wont be around for them to learn from. Are we contributing to the decline of the reefs? The simple ansure is yes. But are we the group that may save the remnits of a naturally extinct habitat. That was lost due to what we have done as a race not a hobby. In the end the reef hobby will play a insicnificant role in the decline of reefs. Remember look for captive raised.

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7095319#post7095319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Quit stalking me!



I wasn't going to bring that up! I think we should pay more for gas too, but thats lounge talk!

Until you get that restraining order.....


LOL, quit going where I hang out

I do feel we don't pay enough for our critters here stateside. From working every angle possiable, besides exporter/collector, I can tell you that not much has changed price wise is 20 some odd years, besides the named coral fad.

To be fair though, the Japanesse eat a 1/3 of all seafood

 

[RobbyG]

I agree with your statement, but not exactly the way you meant it. I think the fish prices are too cheap to the LFS but are as expensive as they need to be to the End consumer.

It's because of the Fact that an LFS can buy a Hippo Tang for $8 and resell it for $35 that makes most LFS just handle the fish with disregard! If even 3 out of 5 fish die an LFS can still make a profit so why be careful, why go out of your way to make sure they all survive when you can afford to lose 50% and still come out on top. Yes you could make a bigger profit by Babying them but they will tell you it uses to much man power, holding space and time, to do it carefully, so why bother!

Why do you think all these new chains of pet stores sell SW Fish, even though they are so difficult to keep alive? Because they get them dirt cheap and sell them for Big $$ so they know that they can afford to lose lots of them and still make a huge profit.

This to me is the biggest Sin that goes on in the SW Aquarium trade.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7094722#post7094722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
.
I think the hobby is too cheap. Fish prices haven't changed significantly in the last 20 years. FWIU, European markets pay double than US markets.
The bulk of hobbyists are uninformed/uneducated, and seem more interested in low prices than in quality, healthy animals. I think that even often applies to hobbyists that are informed and educated. People want to pay as little as possible for what they want.
I don't know if I agree about the overall impact of reeftanks as education, as that argument doesn't work with other animals.

I think being part of the hobby at all drives 'the horror', but I don't really know how bad a thing that is.