Is our hobby driving the horror?

[Thales]

That just seems like a icky LFS making way too much on the markup. Most do not mark up 4x. I also disagree that they think they are disposable because they are going to make a huge profit on some of them. I think they may feel they are disposable because they get them so cheaply. If they were more expensive, everyone at every level might think more carefully before buying.

I am all for people making money, and I think the price issue starts at collection, not at the LFS. If the collectors got paid more for what they collect, the entire price chain would rise, and I think that is a good thing.

In essence, I think we are talking about the same thing. Volume. I think the idea of volume sales in marine ornamentals is icky.

 

[The Marmot]

No I don't think that "We" being all reefkeepers, contribute to the demise of our wild reefs. Because, I for one do not generally support the LFS. My tank is stocked with 100% captive raised corals. All aquired via club frag swaps, and a few purchases from a few of the LFS that actually propegate. There are enough LE pieces currently being propped that the demand for collected pieces seems to have diminished. At least thats what is easy to assume after seeing the LFS selection degrade over the last year or so. Take a good look at your tanks and count the captive raised pieces. If they total less than 50% of your livestock, then it may be time to join a local club and encourage other hobbyists to do the same. If we can honestly say that our animals come from other hobbyists, and not poached from some reef somewhere, then we can enjoy our hobby guilt free. Besides, like someone else mentioned, eventually there may be no reefs. And with that in mind, it makes sense that we should be keeping these animals in captivity, they have a better chance at life that way. If all the wild colonies are wiped out due to polution, climate, etc., then we need to keep these animals where we can study them, propegate them, and hopefully someday, re-stock the oceans.

 

[Thales]

Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

 

[RobbyG]

Lets not go over the edge now It' statements like this that make Environmentalists lose credability with the regular Joe Blow.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105098#post7105098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

 

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105735#post7105735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobbyG
Lets not go over the edge now It' statements like this that make Environmentalists lose credability with the regular Joe Blow.

How do you feel that this it was over the edge? Am I talking with fellow reefers or regular Joe Blows? Are you saying that the resources used to create the electricity that we pour into our home reefs doesn't have impact on wild reefs?

 

[RobbyG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7104930#post7104930 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Marmot
My tank is stocked with 100% captive raised corals. All aquired via club frag swaps, and a few purchases from a few of the LFS that actually propegate. .

Wish I could say the same, I would feel a lot better about my Tank if it was like yours.

 

[The Marmot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105098#post7105098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

Yes, it can be argued that bi-products of the resources used to power the worlds cities is part of the problem. But the point I was trying to make was that I do what I can to not support the retail trade of wild caught animals. Heck even my dog is pedigreed, I refuse to even purchase common pets from a pet store; out of fear of un-wittingly supporting an animal farm,(well I did "rescue" a 5 week old kitten from a pet store, but it if the cat hadn't been without it's mother at that age, it would have been on it's own!). Anyway...if I could live without using electricity, gas, oil, etc...I would. But as much as I want to do my part, I'm not an Eco-Nut, and I won't go that far.

 

[Thales]

Thats great! As long as people realize that simply keeping an aquarium makes the aquarium keep at least part of the general problem I feel good. I think people should do what they can, while at the same time realizing that even the best efforts have some negative impact that shouldn't be ignored .

 

[RobbyG]

Ah yes it does impact it, but so does just about everything else we do! Watch some TV use your Microwave, they all use electricity, Reef Tanks probably use about .00000000000000000000000000000001% of all the power consumed world wide. That same percentage is how much reef Tanks destroy reefs via energy use versus everything else that uses power. And yes it's a trivial number.


QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105812#post7105812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
How do you feel that this it was over the edge? Am I talking with fellow reefers or regular Joe Blows? Are you saying that the resources used to create the electricity that we pour into our home reefs doesn't have impact on wild reefs? [/QUOTE]

 

[Thales]

I don't believe it is a trivial number because of how relates to the infrastructure needed to get those reeftanks their power.

 

[Anthozoan]

All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

Please, can we have some realistic discussion here? At the level of human population on the planet, we are already beyond living in ecological balance. Period. The best we can do is the best of the worst options for us. I don't think there is any educated person out there that is going to try to argue that the reefs are going to get any healthier in the future, and you'd be damned pressed to find anyone that will even argue that they will maintain as they are. They are going downhill, how fast we choose to let them slide is (hopefully still ) up to us. Clearly, choosing just what the most viable of the best of the worst options is a tricky subjective subject. And now let the debate continue...

Oh yeah, can I also point out that without the reef hobby to unite us, none of us would be in this forum exchanging viewpoints about how best to save the reefs...

 

[RobbyG]

The electricity point I agree, this is so trivial a point thats it's not worth discussing further.
I would disagree that the reefs cannot be saved, it's all just a matter of whats important to people. I have seen a really nice improvement in the reefs here because they made the area into a marine Park, so now boats don't anchor and fishermen dont use the area and the waste from large hotels is monitored better. If people decide to halt doing the things that have created global warming the reefs could make a major recovery in 1 or 2 decades. This is not an impossible task, places like Sweden, Dennmark, Germany , Brazil and many other parts of the world are already doing it.

 

[Anthozoan]

I agree also that indeed SOME reefs will show improvements in the future due to better management. However, when leveraged against ALL the reefs in the world, I don't think that we are going to see overall movement in the right direction. Heck, down here in the Keys, there are probably more laws and protected zones than just about any reef on Earth. But the reefs here aren't doing that great. I wouldn't say that they are sliding terribly fast either though. The biggest culprits are probably from the runoff of fertilizers from the sugar plantations in the Everglades, and then just simple human activity like boating, fishing, diving, and having a high population density 5 miles from the reef. Finding acropora is a mission these days, although the few colonies that I see look like they are doing well, so we can hope that in 10-20 years we will have staghorn and elkhorn thickets like there used to be back in the 70s.

As for reversing climate change, I'd say that at best, to reverse the trend of global warming we are looking at a nearly impossible wall of deaf ears. The US won't approve the Kyoto protocol, and even that wouldn't be enough to do much, but it certainly is a great first step. I just read today that the EPA is looking to open up a loophole to allow the biggest polluters to pollute even more. (See here) That is our "Environmental PROTECTION agency" mind you...If "developed" nations like the USA won't set an expample, then how can we expect developing nations to follow along? Developed nations, such as ourselves, are where we are today because we did our developing in another era, when there was no thought given to pollution. Now of course we want to hold everyone else to higher Most developing nations, especially tropical island nations simply burn their trash in the backyard (or often in the street). I recall from my experience in the Solomon Islands, the sight of batteries laying all over the place as the smell of trash hung in the air. Without electricity, they use these disposable batteries (it's pretty tough to use rechargeable batteries without electricity), and they just throw them out into their gardens or street or literally where ever. It is easy for us to point blame at this ignorance, but shoot, I don't have a clue what happens to all my trash once the garbage truck takes it away.

Another vein in the aging body of humanity...

 

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7111217#post7111217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan
All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

Please, can we have some realistic discussion here?

How can you call for realistic discussion when your first paragraph as nothing to do with reality, or the reality of the discussion so far?
Intentionally pushing anothers arguments to extremes that no one is arguing belittles the entire discussion.

At the level of human population on the planet, we are already beyond living in ecological balance. Period. The best we can do is the best of the worst options for us. I don't think there is any educated person out there that is going to try to argue that the reefs are going to get any healthier in the future, and you'd be damned pressed to find anyone that will even argue that they will maintain as they are. They are going downhill, how fast we choose to let them slide is (hopefully still ) up to us. Clearly, choosing just what the most viable of the best of the worst options is a tricky subjective subject. And now let the debate continue...

So, you advocate we ramp up wild coral collection because the reefs are doomed anyway? Or, is that just an extreme version of what you wrote that you don't actually believe.

Oh yeah, can I also point out that without the reef hobby to unite us, none of us would be in this forum exchanging viewpoints about how best to save the reefs...

That seems pretty obvious.

 

[Anthozoan]

I was being satirical...

As for what we should do? Anything that each and every one of us feels is what we need to do to save the reefs, is what we should each do. If that means for some, running their metal halides on solar power, then that's what you have to do. Or if it simply means buying aquacultured specimens, then do that. As this discussion exposes, everyone has different ideas of what needs to be done. But thankfully we all agree that the reefs are worthy of being saved.

For my part, I will be interning with the Marine Aquarium Council for 6 months in Bali starting in July. I will be helping to bring the local coral aquaculture efforts up to a MAC certifiable level. This will entail showing them sustainable collection of broodstock, correct species selection, proper attachement, what morphologies people pay the most for, etc. I know, it is a tough job, but someone has to do it.

I don't advocate raping the reefs like Lefty is insinuating. I do think it would be great if some magic pile of money fell out of the sky which could be used to fund a live coral genetic bank, that would ensure that all species and morphologies of coral are preserved should we ever lose the reefs. Until that time, we the reef hobbyists are making up the collective network of that genetic bank. And yes, wild collection, if done responsibly should continue.

 

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7112476#post7112476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan

I don't advocate raping the reefs like Lefty is insinuating.

You missed my point, and the winkie!

I think this just illustrates that that kind of belittling satire can really damage this kind of discussion.

 

[Anthozoan]

yeah, these emoticons can be confusing. As you can see I'm new around here. To be completely honest, I'm mostly looking for a quick way to get 50 posts without having to go into the Lounge. I'm not trying to BS anyone though, I think I have an interesting perspective as a marine biologidt/marine life collector that I can bring to the table. But until I get 50 posts, I can't use the trading forum to trade anyone my sweet ricordeas and corallimorphs...

 

[Atomahawk]

Personally I feel the wild caught aquatic fish and invert industry has had a very minimal direct impact on stocks of these animals. Over fishing for the food industry, off shore pollution and run off from agriculture, ozone layer depletion, improper waist disposal chemical and organic, dredging and dynamiting, oil spills and pollution from sea going vessels and off shore rigs, increased population and the tourism industry near reefs. Have way more negative impact that our hobby.

For every Copperband Butterfly or Tang caught for the hobby 1000ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s, die as trash fish caught in trawlers nets. For every piece of coral taken for our hobby 1000ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s go to the ornamental trade as decorations or destroyed to dredging from construction or die from pollution. Our industry is a drop in the bucket compared to massive destruction caused by every other environmental impacting activity that man has devised.

Doââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s that mean we should take the high road attitude towards our hobby because we have a lower impact? Of course not! Like any other animal we would care for we should strive to do our utmost to home our pets in the most carrying and compassionate manner possible. By continuing our hobby we should also be striving to understand what these animals need to not only survive but to thrive. I believe we have come a very long way towards achieving those goals, despite the many sacrifices animals over the years. I know the success rate at keeping the animals over extended periods of time has dramatically increased over the past 25 years. We are doing what couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t be done because of the perseverance of ardent hobbyistââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s and the discoveries and experiments done by them that was shared for all to improve themselves as keepers.

Are their things that need improving? Yes, for starters I think itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s high time that a special fish keeping course be mandatory for all stores that wish to keep marine fish. It should be considered a profession or a specialty. A licensed person would always have to be on hand to answer questions regarding saltwater inquiries. Stores should be obliged to have minimum of proper equipment to properly take care of marine fish and inverts. Distributors should have the same exact obligations as stores. You want to see healthy fish and inverts and stores clean up their act, this would definitely be a huge step in the right direction. Yes it will all add up in cost to the consumer, but then again maybe little Nemo buyers will think twice then.

Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m sure more could be done, but this would be a start.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7113335#post7113335 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan
I'm not trying to BS anyone though, I think I have an interesting perspective as a marine biologidt/marine life collector that I can bring to the table. But until I get 50 posts, I can't use the trading forum to trade anyone my sweet ricordeas and corallimorphs...

Hate to break the news to you, but as a collector you fall under what RC deems commercial and will need to abide by the commercial part of the [ua] . The upshot of that is, even with 50 posts you will not be allowed to trade/sell.

Otherwise, you are more than welcome to bring your experience and knowledge to the table

 

[hgbarwick]

If you by a fish or coarl from a LFS you could be saving its life. When people collect fish from the reef for the hobby they arnt deystroing the reef. In 50 years from now hobbyist fish tanks may be the only places to see these enviroments.