Is our hobby driving the horror?
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onereefnotenuf
Premium Member
there would be a problem with non endemic "hitch hikers" that could cause a big problem when introduced into an area of ocean different from where they come from. crabs,shrimp,microscopic life . too many to name. for example if a bacteria from the indian ocean is introduced to the atlantic where there is no built up immunity it could cause a huge die-off.
First having worked for years in the industry anyone saying that even the very best and most responsible LFS's and hobbyist in general dont contribute to the many problems facing the worlds reefs is either dumb or plainly sticking there head in the sand.
I love the creatures in my reef tank and would like to see all who feel the same be able to continue in the hobby however every single specimen we all own once came from the ocean or a piece that came from the ocean.
All of these organisms that we see in the stores are but a extremly small percentage of what was ripped from the reef in the first place. Judging what kind of effect we are having on the worlds reef's by some half @ssed discussion about responsible LFS owners is missing the point.
So you like that red sea tang you just bought, think he looks killer in your stupid 55 gallon tank well think of the other 200 that were caught and then died in transit just so you could have your pretty fish.
I myself am responsible for my part of the problem so i dont want to only gripe about how little people regard for the things they keep in their tanks but This hobby is a very shameful waste of beautiful creatures that in truth should remain on the reef.
You may ask, Do i think mariculture of these organisms help the reefs in any way ? Of Course not. 90 percent of the people in the industry claiming the benifits of mariculture are using bait and switch tactics. Like the Current trend of bali maricultured corals which so many people consider a just purchase because the are only fraging corals and then growing them out.
These reefs are being stripped like every other collection site the fragging part only boosts the profit for companies like golden ina by turning one colony of acropora into 20 in which they can sell.
There are no reason for them to leave a part of the coral because they would rather make every last cent from the hobby.
the LFS is the last link in the chain when it comes to the trip of death for all aquarium livestock. The Wholesaler is in fact where most animals come to die. I really wish you guys could see the mountains of bleached and deaqd coral outside these facilities and smell the buckets apon buckets of dead fish that they produce daily.
The single best thing the hobby could do in order to protect the reefs is refuse to pruchase live rock. Before going any further on this topic i will say that live rock gives your tank an immense head start and without it a tank would literally take several years before it looked good. Although the rock is nice and makes y6ou tank full of all kinds of cryptic fauna it is the last step for a stripped reef and your tank can grow with substitutes.
We all know of the different kind of live rock out there they sell it with really exotic names and after a while we usually dont see as much of it after it has made its run. These rocks were the homes of the corals and inverts and fish you all have in your tanks.
Once the easy to collect or marketable specimens were collected the walt smith guys went out with there dynamite and completly removed the foundation for that reef. While fish migrate in most cases the reef itself at this point is removed and no organisms will colonize the area for years and years.
Ora breeds some fish and for that we have one supplier who is at least outwaying the damage that they cause but to excuse all of the rape of the reefs because you may frag a few corals and trade em doesnt in one real way affect the next pristine reef that after a month or so wil no longer exist.
Feel good for the little bit that you do do to teach people about reefs and all but do not think its a good thing becuase the person you educate most likely will go out and buy there own tank and in turn remove more organisms and live rock from the ocean. Can you really think this is a good thing ?\
Every time you go in to your lfs count all the corals and fish and really consider how many died from the collection station to the hot tarmac at the airport to the filthy conditions at the wholesaler and finally to your own tank where you have seen specimens die for one reason or another.
If you really want your children to be able to see reefs for what they really are majestic ecosystems that are the filter and staging point for all life in the oceans then think about all the creatures that died to let you have an acro to frag and trade in the first place.
I love the creatures in my reef tank and would like to see all who feel the same be able to continue in the hobby however every single specimen we all own once came from the ocean or a piece that came from the ocean.
All of these organisms that we see in the stores are but a extremly small percentage of what was ripped from the reef in the first place. Judging what kind of effect we are having on the worlds reef's by some half @ssed discussion about responsible LFS owners is missing the point.
So you like that red sea tang you just bought, think he looks killer in your stupid 55 gallon tank well think of the other 200 that were caught and then died in transit just so you could have your pretty fish.
I myself am responsible for my part of the problem so i dont want to only gripe about how little people regard for the things they keep in their tanks but This hobby is a very shameful waste of beautiful creatures that in truth should remain on the reef.
You may ask, Do i think mariculture of these organisms help the reefs in any way ? Of Course not. 90 percent of the people in the industry claiming the benifits of mariculture are using bait and switch tactics. Like the Current trend of bali maricultured corals which so many people consider a just purchase because the are only fraging corals and then growing them out.
These reefs are being stripped like every other collection site the fragging part only boosts the profit for companies like golden ina by turning one colony of acropora into 20 in which they can sell.
There are no reason for them to leave a part of the coral because they would rather make every last cent from the hobby.
the LFS is the last link in the chain when it comes to the trip of death for all aquarium livestock. The Wholesaler is in fact where most animals come to die. I really wish you guys could see the mountains of bleached and deaqd coral outside these facilities and smell the buckets apon buckets of dead fish that they produce daily.
The single best thing the hobby could do in order to protect the reefs is refuse to pruchase live rock. Before going any further on this topic i will say that live rock gives your tank an immense head start and without it a tank would literally take several years before it looked good. Although the rock is nice and makes y6ou tank full of all kinds of cryptic fauna it is the last step for a stripped reef and your tank can grow with substitutes.
We all know of the different kind of live rock out there they sell it with really exotic names and after a while we usually dont see as much of it after it has made its run. These rocks were the homes of the corals and inverts and fish you all have in your tanks.
Once the easy to collect or marketable specimens were collected the walt smith guys went out with there dynamite and completly removed the foundation for that reef. While fish migrate in most cases the reef itself at this point is removed and no organisms will colonize the area for years and years.
Ora breeds some fish and for that we have one supplier who is at least outwaying the damage that they cause but to excuse all of the rape of the reefs because you may frag a few corals and trade em doesnt in one real way affect the next pristine reef that after a month or so wil no longer exist.
Feel good for the little bit that you do do to teach people about reefs and all but do not think its a good thing becuase the person you educate most likely will go out and buy there own tank and in turn remove more organisms and live rock from the ocean. Can you really think this is a good thing ?\
Every time you go in to your lfs count all the corals and fish and really consider how many died from the collection station to the hot tarmac at the airport to the filthy conditions at the wholesaler and finally to your own tank where you have seen specimens die for one reason or another.
If you really want your children to be able to see reefs for what they really are majestic ecosystems that are the filter and staging point for all life in the oceans then think about all the creatures that died to let you have an acro to frag and trade in the first place.
cthetoy
Active member
I dont think hobbyists are contributing the havoc across the coral reefs around the world. I think fish for human consumption are 100x worse. Look at all the fish we eat and all the fish the commercial fisherman catches. I see alot more fish at the market compared to the local pet shop. And this is just in the US. Compared to asian counties like Phillipines, Japan, Indonesia, etc and fish consumption is quadruple of what we consume. They use dynmamite to blast and stun fish to sell at the market for food. That blast not only kills the fish but also the reefs where the fish were hiding.
Coral reefs around the world are disapearing by the acres not by collectors but by global warming of the seas and pollution. Sure collectors are creating some damage but not as much as the other two.
Most people on Reefcentral are responsible hobbyists. If every customer who walks in LFS are reefcentral members then you would perhaps see a 90% drop on mortality rates. Most of the fish/coral that die from the LFS will be from irresponsible hobbyists
Coral reefs around the world are disapearing by the acres not by collectors but by global warming of the seas and pollution. Sure collectors are creating some damage but not as much as the other two.
Most people on Reefcentral are responsible hobbyists. If every customer who walks in LFS are reefcentral members then you would perhaps see a 90% drop on mortality rates. Most of the fish/coral that die from the LFS will be from irresponsible hobbyists
I might just be asking for hate reply but I am a collector in Hawaii and I also wholesale to strictly pet stores. Specializing in LFS, I do not sell to what I call the wal-marts of the fish trade. My mortality rate is probably not that far off from what dies on the reef from natural causes and survival of the fittest.
I think there are a lot of problems in the trade and most of them are attributed to third world people trying to make more than $1 a day, big wholesalers, and non-LFS pushing fish to make a profit.
I think there are a lot of problems in the trade and most of them are attributed to third world people trying to make more than $1 a day, big wholesalers, and non-LFS pushing fish to make a profit.
wds21921
New member
In a point of reference a poster commented on raping the sea.
It's easy to point fingers and say "this is all your fault." The truth is though that at least a part of what is happening to the seas right now is a result of pollution/overfishing. I would venture to say that is the largest source of damage as well.
If we quantified every animal captured from the sea and then followed each to there destination point we "might" see a high mortality rate. Not nearly as high as it was 20 years ago but perhaps still a high mortality rate and even that term "high' is suspect.
Now take those numbers and compare them to the amount of fish that are caught for human consumption. The overall numbers I guarantee will reflect that those captured for home tank placement are very miniscule compared to the ones bound for someones dinner table.
The other factor, pollution. To be able to quantify that we would have to do an exhaustive case study performed over several years from several different areas. Along with the specific species effected would be those also that are connected to them in the food chain. Again I am VERY sure that these numbers once again will pale in comparison to those captured for home tanks, large aquariums (public), and those used for research.
Being involved in an industry does not qualify anyone as an expert either. I'm not blasting anyone for this but I am simply pointing out that the implication that these "are" the answers or "the results" without any sort of verifiable data to back up such claims is moot.
Are we as hobbysists somewhat responsible? Sure, I haven't seen anyone on here denying that. BUT, I've also seen many of the wild caught species (specifically corals) being home propogated such as zooanthids, mushrooms, acropora, montipora, etc. To say this area of reproduction in inverts is not helping to alleviate what's being removed is to me an argument without any sense of merit.
As we learn more, we can also begin to reproduce more animals (both fish and inverts) over time.
I think there are a lot of assumptions being given as fact that cannot be proven either way.
It's easy to point fingers and say "this is all your fault." The truth is though that at least a part of what is happening to the seas right now is a result of pollution/overfishing. I would venture to say that is the largest source of damage as well.
If we quantified every animal captured from the sea and then followed each to there destination point we "might" see a high mortality rate. Not nearly as high as it was 20 years ago but perhaps still a high mortality rate and even that term "high' is suspect.
Now take those numbers and compare them to the amount of fish that are caught for human consumption. The overall numbers I guarantee will reflect that those captured for home tank placement are very miniscule compared to the ones bound for someones dinner table.
The other factor, pollution. To be able to quantify that we would have to do an exhaustive case study performed over several years from several different areas. Along with the specific species effected would be those also that are connected to them in the food chain. Again I am VERY sure that these numbers once again will pale in comparison to those captured for home tanks, large aquariums (public), and those used for research.
Being involved in an industry does not qualify anyone as an expert either. I'm not blasting anyone for this but I am simply pointing out that the implication that these "are" the answers or "the results" without any sort of verifiable data to back up such claims is moot.
Are we as hobbysists somewhat responsible? Sure, I haven't seen anyone on here denying that. BUT, I've also seen many of the wild caught species (specifically corals) being home propogated such as zooanthids, mushrooms, acropora, montipora, etc. To say this area of reproduction in inverts is not helping to alleviate what's being removed is to me an argument without any sense of merit.
As we learn more, we can also begin to reproduce more animals (both fish and inverts) over time.
I think there are a lot of assumptions being given as fact that cannot be proven either way.
cthetoy
Active member
If I wanted to save the coral reefs around the world then ill put all my time and effort in targeting the major culprits and not the hobbyists. If they outlawed reefkeeping tommorow and 5 years later our coral reefs may improve somewhat. Now outlaw commercial fishing and sea pollution and in 5 years you will see signifgant improvements.
I don't think this is true as much mortality comes from the import side rather than the domestic
I'm not sure the exact mortality rates from the import side but I heard it was less than 20% mortality in 3rd world parts and less than 10% in the US like Hawaii. Im sure Pactrop can chime you on the exact mortality rates since he collects.
On the otherhand I feel that 90% of all fish sold at the LFS will die from the hobbyist because of disease, imcompatibility, poor water parameters, owner neglect, proper nutrition, etc. I fell into that category before I came aboard on Reefcentral.
I don't think this is true as much mortality comes from the import side rather than the domestic
I'm not sure the exact mortality rates from the import side but I heard it was less than 20% mortality in 3rd world parts and less than 10% in the US like Hawaii. Im sure Pactrop can chime you on the exact mortality rates since he collects.
On the otherhand I feel that 90% of all fish sold at the LFS will die from the hobbyist because of disease, imcompatibility, poor water parameters, owner neglect, proper nutrition, etc. I fell into that category before I came aboard on Reefcentral.
Yes you are correct. the mortality rate is really low. I would put mine at about 2 to 5%. Keep in mind I am what I consider a boutique collector/wholesaler. The larger operations will lose closer to around 5-10%.
I am also pretty sure you are correct on the end of the line consumer is for the most part the end of the life for a fish. I try to market to the RC type people and stores that are more "in tune" with what should and needs to be done for a healthy environment.
fish for food is a whole different forum.
I am also pretty sure you are correct on the end of the line consumer is for the most part the end of the life for a fish. I try to market to the RC type people and stores that are more "in tune" with what should and needs to be done for a healthy environment.
fish for food is a whole different forum.
Yes some corals reproduce in our tanks but the handfull of corals that come from people who grow coral succesfully are less than 1% of the coral that is being sold in this country and around the world. Not to say that this is not a good thing but to say this offsets wild collection at all or in any way is foolish and a complete farce.
Most everyone who keeps a tank genuinly cares for these creatures they keep but again this does not make the practice a good thing for the reefs of the world.
To compare fish that are harvested as food versus fish for the aquarium industry is for one comparing apples and oranges and in turn trying to deviate from the forum question. I dont remember any recipes that call for Red Sea purple tang or fried clownfish. Any large scale harvesting of any natural resource has major complications and in both harvesting of reef organisms and fishery's for the consumption of human beings there are major wrongs being committed.
It would be completly foolish to think that these fish and corals would not be better off in the ocean and think that this hobby has no impact on the health of reefs in the wild just as the scuba industry impacts the health of the reefs.
I hear people all the time try to make light of this problem the hobby faces by saying things like i frag my zoanthids or the hobby negates its impact because it teaches others about reefs.
The fact is that just like a Lion belongs in the wild so does a shark or any other creature that is a vital part of the ecosystem.
Think of the next generations of coral and fish life that will not happen becuase the specimens are not there to reproduce and play there vital role in that said eccosystem. Please enjoy what you do in this hobby but do not make light of what is taking place.
The amount of life coming out of the ocean is far far too much and it is being taken from the sea at a time where reefs all over the globe are suffering. 85% of hte worlds reefs are in dire need and not much can be done to help them other than to leave them be to heal and taking every last specimen and moving from reef to reef is doing exactly the opposite. Global warming and the population of coastal cities around the equator are the two most damaging things happening to the reefs currently and when you tie in the aquarium hobby you truly begin to relize how damaging collection of the organisms can be.
In a more perfect world we would be able to collect a percentage of the ornamental organisms from the wild and it would not be such a drastic blow to the diversity of the reefs but as is there is way too much happpening to them to continue to collect as we do now.
Riddle me this ? Why would we treat the reefs in the caribbean and off the hawaiin islands any differently than we would those from international or foreign waters? Should we not pass the same collection restrictions on corals and marine life from fiji like we do from the florida keys?
A LOT OF PEOPLE speak like this industry thinks of the animals first when it is not the case. Yes alot of LFS owners try to do just that but they can only affect the animals under there care they have nothing they can do for the 50 powder blue tangs that died just meters away from the waters edge where they were collected.
My aim in this post is not to declare any of you guys as fish rapists but the industry is whether or not we get to know just how bad it is. We have all lost specimens in our tanks and we truly know how fragile the life we attempt to care for is, All i ask is when you look at one healthy specimen in a store think of all its buddies that died along the way.
The biggest fact in all of this is to truly understand while husbandry techniques have improved we are still dealing with organisms that evolved to do their part to maintain THE MOST IMPROTANT ecosystem on earth. Without functioning reefs we will not have a functioning ocean and in turn We will be the species that is in trouble.
Most everyone who keeps a tank genuinly cares for these creatures they keep but again this does not make the practice a good thing for the reefs of the world.
To compare fish that are harvested as food versus fish for the aquarium industry is for one comparing apples and oranges and in turn trying to deviate from the forum question. I dont remember any recipes that call for Red Sea purple tang or fried clownfish. Any large scale harvesting of any natural resource has major complications and in both harvesting of reef organisms and fishery's for the consumption of human beings there are major wrongs being committed.
It would be completly foolish to think that these fish and corals would not be better off in the ocean and think that this hobby has no impact on the health of reefs in the wild just as the scuba industry impacts the health of the reefs.
I hear people all the time try to make light of this problem the hobby faces by saying things like i frag my zoanthids or the hobby negates its impact because it teaches others about reefs.
The fact is that just like a Lion belongs in the wild so does a shark or any other creature that is a vital part of the ecosystem.
Think of the next generations of coral and fish life that will not happen becuase the specimens are not there to reproduce and play there vital role in that said eccosystem. Please enjoy what you do in this hobby but do not make light of what is taking place.
The amount of life coming out of the ocean is far far too much and it is being taken from the sea at a time where reefs all over the globe are suffering. 85% of hte worlds reefs are in dire need and not much can be done to help them other than to leave them be to heal and taking every last specimen and moving from reef to reef is doing exactly the opposite. Global warming and the population of coastal cities around the equator are the two most damaging things happening to the reefs currently and when you tie in the aquarium hobby you truly begin to relize how damaging collection of the organisms can be.
In a more perfect world we would be able to collect a percentage of the ornamental organisms from the wild and it would not be such a drastic blow to the diversity of the reefs but as is there is way too much happpening to them to continue to collect as we do now.
Riddle me this ? Why would we treat the reefs in the caribbean and off the hawaiin islands any differently than we would those from international or foreign waters? Should we not pass the same collection restrictions on corals and marine life from fiji like we do from the florida keys?
A LOT OF PEOPLE speak like this industry thinks of the animals first when it is not the case. Yes alot of LFS owners try to do just that but they can only affect the animals under there care they have nothing they can do for the 50 powder blue tangs that died just meters away from the waters edge where they were collected.
My aim in this post is not to declare any of you guys as fish rapists but the industry is whether or not we get to know just how bad it is. We have all lost specimens in our tanks and we truly know how fragile the life we attempt to care for is, All i ask is when you look at one healthy specimen in a store think of all its buddies that died along the way.
The biggest fact in all of this is to truly understand while husbandry techniques have improved we are still dealing with organisms that evolved to do their part to maintain THE MOST IMPROTANT ecosystem on earth. Without functioning reefs we will not have a functioning ocean and in turn We will be the species that is in trouble.
onereefnotenuf
Premium Member
where did you get the information that it takes 200 red sea tangs(i will assume you mean sailfins) to get one healthy one in my tank? i understand the spirit of you're post but i don't think exaggerating death rates to make a point does anybody any good.
I don't want to keep beating a dead horse but we are consumers.
Ornamentals are also food. the Kole tang means raw in Hawaiian, why? because that is how people liked it prepared. the Naso literatus, Acanthurus triostegus, dussumier, blochii, Bodianus bilunulatus, Myripristis berndti, Lutjanus kasmira, Cephalopholis argus are all on my inventory list regularly and all also found on dinner tables regularly.
I have even seen some butterfly fish laying on ice next to tuna in the fish markets in Tahiti.
Yes other places need to regulate more. How do you suggest controlling how another country harvests?
Ornamentals are also food. the Kole tang means raw in Hawaiian, why? because that is how people liked it prepared. the Naso literatus, Acanthurus triostegus, dussumier, blochii, Bodianus bilunulatus, Myripristis berndti, Lutjanus kasmira, Cephalopholis argus are all on my inventory list regularly and all also found on dinner tables regularly.
I have even seen some butterfly fish laying on ice next to tuna in the fish markets in Tahiti.
Yes other places need to regulate more. How do you suggest controlling how another country harvests?
Eric Boerner
Coral Cutter
Yes, we aren't in Indonisia, but ALL of the wild species that our hobby could possibly effect come from either indonesia, phillipines, or haiti, all of which use cyanide or blasting to collect their food stocks.
The 2 dozen tangs hand caught, randomly monitored by a CITES inspector, processed through a CITES facility, and inspected again in the US port is far less than the 1000's of net caught, cyanide subdued, or blast fished out of the ocean.
The perception that the ornamental trade was the primary source of take from the reefs has created a huge and locally lucrative buracracy to ensure that collection is done humanely. Meanwhile, reef fishers continue to employ whatever measures they wish to catch food stocks (the same fish thats being sent to us).
The hobby nor your local fish store is the primary reason reefs are on the decline, at least not directly. Global warming and deforestation is what will destroy our current reef structures. So in a sense, we and the LFS are in someway responsible. All the electricity we consume to sustain an artificial box of rocks, contributes to the overall global warming issue.
While working in central and south florida it was not uncommen to go to a wholesaler and see several hundred of yellow tangs from indo or other similer species in tanks and as many as 50 dead in the tank. This is obviously a very irreputable example of the wholesale experiance but there are often high numbers of fish and this is one business out of many in the country. "200" is a rounded number but i do not feel it is an exageration. Unfortunatly this hobby starts as a business and a large one at that there are tons of fish for sale right now in the US.
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