Well we could start by controlling how import certain elements of reef life, a good start would be to stop allowing live rock from being imported from countries that do not have the strict regulations that we pose on operators in US waters. There is no live rock available from the florida keys or hawaii because we would have none left if we left it up to the business's involved.
Is our hobby driving the horror?
- Thread starter axepilot
- Start date
Well we could start by controlling how import certain elements of reef life, a good start would be to stop allowing live rock from being imported from countries that do not have the strict regulations that we pose on operators in US waters. There is no live rock available from the florida keys or hawaii because we would have none left if we left it up to the business's involved.
wds21921
New member
So your example of a worse case scenario is how you judge consumers (pet owners)? The alleged 200 tangs you used as an example seems to be the exception and not the rule, and personally I have a hard time believing that given a few of your postings now.
Exaggerated claims and statements are not going to win you any support nor any credibility.
I do agree with your statement concerning Live Rock though that the sale shipment and deforestation of it needs to be more closely monitored.
And in reference to your apples and oranges statement, the subject is about Responsible Reefkeeping yet you seem to blame the loss of fish and sea life in general on hobbysists. Mayeb we should perhaps change the subject to Responsible Postings?
Exaggerated claims and statements are not going to win you any support nor any credibility.
I do agree with your statement concerning Live Rock though that the sale shipment and deforestation of it needs to be more closely monitored.
And in reference to your apples and oranges statement, the subject is about Responsible Reefkeeping yet you seem to blame the loss of fish and sea life in general on hobbysists. Mayeb we should perhaps change the subject to Responsible Postings?
This is the rule and it was only one of many wholesalers operating in the us. Do you actually think they only collect a small number of fish? They have to pull everything they can to make a profit. Selling one 65 dollar fish isnt going to pay the shipping it takes bulk orders to make a profit importing these creatures.
Furthermore i am not blaming anyone and if all you can get from my posts are a guilt trip then maybe you actually know this hobby drives a BUSINESS that is at this time un checked and is very irresponsible. 75% of the death that takes place happens while being shipped to the us and either A. dies on the tarmac at the airport or B dies in the wholesalers tanks.
As far as rock goes just use your head and take into account how much rock is for sale at this moment in time in stores only. Then think about How quickly it sells. hundreds of thousands of pounds of rock ends up each year in aquariums when in fact it should be left in the ocean where it can be recolonized by corals.
The harvest of live rock is not needed for the hobby to continue in any way but consumers want it because it offers a multitude of organisms along with it making the aquarium look very nice from day one.
It is very easy to look at some of the things i have said and get defensive. Anyone owning an LFS would already know these things but in order to actually stay in business must ignore it.
You can make light of aspects but how can you say removing the corals and then removing the actual reef itself is not harmful?
I really and truly do not have anything against those in the HOBBY becuase most truly care for the animals they keep, after all it is how i came into the business. But there are many who take what some say too much to heart.
We all walk a fine line in this hobby, and many people think that by attempting to rear these creatures is excuse to take them from the ocean and that part I do have a problem with.
All in all there is no one blame for the problems coral reefs are facing but to further impede the overall health in any way better be done for the right reasons.
i can remeber one case where eric bornman was doing a study on elegance corals. This in itself is not a bad thing but at my store alone i had 4 different people asking for me to tranship them so they could participate in the study. That in my mind is a waste of the corals becuase they all ended up dead in the end not one lived, it was ok to try to learn about a coral in the hope to make there requirements known but IN MY MIND it was a waste.
Why not say oh well that is one that belongs on the reef.
I totally understand the desire to succeed where others have not but you must check yourself.
My desire by posting here on RC is to let some of you guys know the death rates and some of the unethical business practises that i have experianced in the hope that the terms Maricultured and responsible collection practises are seen as what they are in most cases a way for the origianl collecter to improve his profit.
After all while most of you guys are just people who enjoy a hobby this starts as a business and needs to monitored and have actuall guidlines that restrict how one uses catch phrases to sell more of there product
/cheers
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onereefnotenuf
Premium Member
just for arguments sake 50 dead in a tank out of what? lets say 100? which I know is a very high ratio means a 1 to 1 ratio not 200 to one. you factor in deaths from the collector lets say he loses half . that brings it to 2 to 1 and finally at the lfs they lose half then it is 4 to1.I know those three "keepers" do not lose 1/2 of their stock each but just to try and see you're point, it still is no where near 200 to 1. how are we supposed to believe the rest of what you say when this is so blatantly wrong? you say you speak from experience but you are losing any credibility by skewing these numbers so incredibly.
Ciarán
New member
Wow what to say after that? Well this hobby is a bit of a hypocritical stance for me as i am a strict vegetarian and value animal life above most other things. So how do i condone keeping beautiful fish and invertebrates in a pathetic glass box? Well its something that plays on my mind quite a lot and i feel the best i can do, short of totally giving up, is to provied THE best conditions possible within my capability for the animals i have taken from the reef. My motivation for persuing shady ideals in respect to my overall character? I hope some day to give back to the reef what i have taken. Maybe not directly in literal livestock but in using my knowledge to promote conservation and to campaign and lobby for greater ethical standards for the ornamental trade and the food fisheries. I love the hobby and my livestock but i feel that our concern should be borne out with a sense of responsibility in making sure the indulgences which are our exotic pets, can live in the best possible conditions. Other than the personal gratification and pleasure i derive from cultivating and keeping a captive reef, i would not do it as it contradicts who i am. But my love for the animals has caused this transgression of self-ideals and i accept that is a personal failing/weakness/immorality to which i say, yeah, i try to be morally conscious but im human after all and like all of you i love reefing. I try to do the best i can conservation-wise, but its still a destructive process and i accept that guiltily.
That is ridiculous. A hippo tang here in Ireland is 65Euro. >$70, I would definitely agree to higher prices of livestock to up the standards of collection and holding facilities. After all we probably spend more on lighting, skimming, filtration, pumps/plumbing aquaria themselves and other peripherals than the main attractions of our luxuries, the inhabitants themselves.
In regards to captive bred or cultured livestock, a very good example is the Tridacna derasa clam. Fished to critical levels, primarily for food consumption in Micronesia/Polynesia, aquaculturing facilities have re-established stocks so that the Derasa clams in your aquaria are very likely aqua-cultured specimins for Australia or Tonga from what I gather.
I think captive breeding and culturing of marine organisms is critical to the long-term sustainance of our hobby i wish that one day we will be able to propagate and/or culture all or most of the specimins we keep, in artificial environments with the eventual goal being a degree of self-sustainance in the hobby itself. Some may retort at this rather lofty goal but i think it is a credible objective to strive for. The moral implications would be tremendous from my perspective, being able to indulge in a quite selfish hobby but without destroying the beautiful environment that provided this indulgence. Though thats only a personal view.
My 2c
Ciaran.
That is ridiculous. A hippo tang here in Ireland is 65Euro. >$70, I would definitely agree to higher prices of livestock to up the standards of collection and holding facilities. After all we probably spend more on lighting, skimming, filtration, pumps/plumbing aquaria themselves and other peripherals than the main attractions of our luxuries, the inhabitants themselves.
In regards to captive bred or cultured livestock, a very good example is the Tridacna derasa clam. Fished to critical levels, primarily for food consumption in Micronesia/Polynesia, aquaculturing facilities have re-established stocks so that the Derasa clams in your aquaria are very likely aqua-cultured specimins for Australia or Tonga from what I gather.
I think captive breeding and culturing of marine organisms is critical to the long-term sustainance of our hobby i wish that one day we will be able to propagate and/or culture all or most of the specimins we keep, in artificial environments with the eventual goal being a degree of self-sustainance in the hobby itself. Some may retort at this rather lofty goal but i think it is a credible objective to strive for. The moral implications would be tremendous from my perspective, being able to indulge in a quite selfish hobby but without destroying the beautiful environment that provided this indulgence. Though thats only a personal view.
My 2c
Ciaran.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
"....see several hundred of yellow tangs from indo".... ????
Hard to take the thread seriously with so glaring an error...built upon and passed around.
Yellow tangs from Indonesia?
Steve
Hard to take the thread seriously with so glaring an error...built upon and passed around.
Yellow tangs from Indonesia?
Steve
Just maximas and gigas at the moment. I've requested millions of times that they get into more then just that. They're working on it from what I gather Having actually recorded individual records of hundreds of tangs. I can tell you that, at least in the store, they do relatively well. I don't know how many to supplier loses, but in the study I did about 11% of the tangs died before sale. This was much better than the overall losses for all fish before sale which was 18%.
HI all,
I think the thread title is no more than National Enquirer hyperbole. It is the greatest hobby on earth. It generated
more marine biologists than anything since Sea Hunt.
As for 200 dead purple tangs for 1 live one the ratio of DOA
imported PT's is about the exact opposite of that. That for
the 1970'-1980's, since then in the 90's it is a bit higher,
but not much. Different people are collecting in the Red Sea
now using different methods than before. Regardless,
DOA's from the Red Sea, Hawaii (where Yellow Tangs are really from) are near zero, like Australia. Hmmm all hand/net caught fish. Wonder why that is?
Same with Yellow Tangs. These are fish that are usually 100%
live upon arrival at wholesalers. I've been there accepting them
for decades. Posting mis-information and promoting it is
as fact is a true horror of the hobby. No business could
survive with 75% losses, and no one in it, or that really
knows what is going on would agree with a figure a
fraction of that.
birdfish
I think the thread title is no more than National Enquirer hyperbole. It is the greatest hobby on earth. It generated
more marine biologists than anything since Sea Hunt.
As for 200 dead purple tangs for 1 live one the ratio of DOA
imported PT's is about the exact opposite of that. That for
the 1970'-1980's, since then in the 90's it is a bit higher,
but not much. Different people are collecting in the Red Sea
now using different methods than before. Regardless,
DOA's from the Red Sea, Hawaii (where Yellow Tangs are really from) are near zero, like Australia. Hmmm all hand/net caught fish. Wonder why that is?
Same with Yellow Tangs. These are fish that are usually 100%
live upon arrival at wholesalers. I've been there accepting them
for decades. Posting mis-information and promoting it is
as fact is a true horror of the hobby. No business could
survive with 75% losses, and no one in it, or that really
knows what is going on would agree with a figure a
fraction of that.
birdfish
Thales
Active member
I agree that 75% DOA may be over stating, but so is 100% live.
Hand caught is not the panacea you make it out to be. Tonga is all net caught and the DOA is no where near 0%. In my neck of the woods the DOA and DAA on hawaii and RS is also nowhere 0%.
Where have you been working? Things may be different in different areas.
Hand caught is not the panacea you make it out to be. Tonga is all net caught and the DOA is no where near 0%. In my neck of the woods the DOA and DAA on hawaii and RS is also nowhere 0%.
Where have you been working? Things may be different in different areas.
I have seen far more shipments at 98+% live than I have any other figure from the Red Sea, Tonga, or Australia. I have my
own company the last 15 years so don't think I can say the name here. But I have worked for, bought from, sold to, drank beer with or cussed at virtually every importer in the biz in L.A., over the last 30 years, (but where I no longer reside). There are several Tonga shippers. Mine ships fish straight through LA without repack with 100% survival the norm. Same for Hawai'i.
To respond to another comment here: Tonga does and has aquacultered derasa clams for many years. They don't have any
right now because the Japanese who built and ran the clam farm
left last year turning the farm over to the Tongans, who did not
breed the clams like they were supposed to last year. They have been spawned this year, and in a year there will again be as there always have been Tongan derasa available. They are pale in comparison to Samoan and some other derasa out there though.
own company the last 15 years so don't think I can say the name here. But I have worked for, bought from, sold to, drank beer with or cussed at virtually every importer in the biz in L.A., over the last 30 years, (but where I no longer reside). There are several Tonga shippers. Mine ships fish straight through LA without repack with 100% survival the norm. Same for Hawai'i.
To respond to another comment here: Tonga does and has aquacultered derasa clams for many years. They don't have any
right now because the Japanese who built and ran the clam farm
left last year turning the farm over to the Tongans, who did not
breed the clams like they were supposed to last year. They have been spawned this year, and in a year there will again be as there always have been Tongan derasa available. They are pale in comparison to Samoan and some other derasa out there though.
They attempted a few spawns this year, and they didn't do so well. The seratonin landed late, and Knopp attempted with what he had. One big problem they're having, is lack of feed. That problem won't be solved I fear till I finally get over there and work one out for them their feeding protocals (as per their request...on my dollar :lol: ). The clam facility is being half rented, but I degress. Your not the only person in this thread with vast knowledge from working this trade 
. In fact, between three of us (Thales, Cortez and I), there's 60+ years combined.
. In fact, between three of us (Thales, Cortez and I), there's 60+ years combined.Do any of you or your customers keep track of what the LFS sells and loses? I attributed (unofficially in my mind) most of the losses I saw in the stores I worked with to the stores, but I would say a typical store will lose 5% of their fish before sale no matter how well they treat them even from the best suppliers. I would assume your 98%-100% survival figures are only counting those fish you lose before they get to the LFS or those the LFS counts as DOA. Every store I studied had 0.5-1% DOA alone. Poor suppliers might send 10% DOA on occasion.
Hi Galilean,
I do not specifically keep track" but I know that if my clients are
losing an inordinate amount of stuff - from anywhere - they go somewhere else. I also have Fiji fish that are handcaught, shipped straight thru without being touched in LA, (a potential true horror of the hobby if there is one) and can be stuck an extra day en route, and STILL have 100% survival to the store client! Repeatedly. And the fish live. Good fish, caught right, shipped right, HANDLED right, are good fish. There are some bad stores that kill a lot of fish, and some bad wholesalers too. There are good fish out there, but the general public much as they say otherwise wants the dollar damsel. I wouldn't disagree with 5% loss for a store. Meat markets lose a lot more than that and it is already dead when it got there!! I agree with ALL the figures you give except poor suppliers can be a lot more than 10% DOA !! They don't last though.
birdfish
I do not specifically keep track" but I know that if my clients are
losing an inordinate amount of stuff - from anywhere - they go somewhere else. I also have Fiji fish that are handcaught, shipped straight thru without being touched in LA, (a potential true horror of the hobby if there is one) and can be stuck an extra day en route, and STILL have 100% survival to the store client! Repeatedly. And the fish live. Good fish, caught right, shipped right, HANDLED right, are good fish. There are some bad stores that kill a lot of fish, and some bad wholesalers too. There are good fish out there, but the general public much as they say otherwise wants the dollar damsel. I wouldn't disagree with 5% loss for a store. Meat markets lose a lot more than that and it is already dead when it got there!! I agree with ALL the figures you give except poor suppliers can be a lot more than 10% DOA !! They don't last though.
birdfish
Yeah, that supplier was dropped after they had the numbers to prove it. They had several shipments with 5-10% DOA and one with 90% dead before sale but this was a large chicago area supplier that has been in buisiness for some years.
I think most LFS don't know what they are losing because they don't keep good records. Some don't keep records at all because the typical assortment of LFS employees just can't or won't do it for $7/hr.
Poor suppliers can stay in buisiness because on any given week the good suppliers just don't have all the fish the store wants to buy. So the store will take a shipment from a several differnt places. Once the fish are in the store, they often forget which ones came from where and can't distiguish the poor supplier. But in general, I would have to agree with you a bad record will eventually catch up with a bad supplier.
I think most LFS don't know what they are losing because they don't keep good records. Some don't keep records at all because the typical assortment of LFS employees just can't or won't do it for $7/hr.
Poor suppliers can stay in buisiness because on any given week the good suppliers just don't have all the fish the store wants to buy. So the store will take a shipment from a several differnt places. Once the fish are in the store, they often forget which ones came from where and can't distiguish the poor supplier. But in general, I would have to agree with you a bad record will eventually catch up with a bad supplier.
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