Is there a reason why...

[jhildebrand]

...we keep collecting these fish?

http://www.ssn.org/Meetings/cop/cop14/Factsheets/Cardinalfish_EN.pdf

There's all kinds of info out there on how banggai cardinals are in trouble at the rate we're collecting them. Due to the fact that they are widely available from captive breeders, why on earth are we stoking the demand by buying slightly cheaper wild-caught ones? This seems to be a case where it seems totally irresponsible as reef keepers to buy a product. I was looking at the group on LA's divers den and remembered reading that they could be in trouble and did a search. The info that comes up is depressing to say the least. It's also a major PR issue for how the non-reefing world looks at this hobby...

 

[Wolverine]

There's no good reason to keep collecting them. Often they end up cheaper if they're collected, and that's what keeps them available.

 

[PoukieBear]

I wanted a pair of cardinals when i set up my tank. I searched and searched for tank raised fish, but I couldn't find any.

There were plenty of wild ones available, but I simply refused to buy them, much to the surprise and raised eyebrows of the store owners.

 

[Letmegrow]

Boycott? Bah.
Re Boycotting the Wild Banggai Cardinalfish

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Testimony to its unthreatened status is also the fact that this fish is offered by Indonesian culturists and collectors outside the area for 10-25 cents per specimen (FOB Indo.) in six-hundred-lot pricing...

Lastly, a comment re misleading, okay, lying with statistics...

... the numbers for specimens reportedly collected are for a period of years, whereas the population number given is static; i.e. there is no descriptive data offered for recruitment, optimum or sustainable yields, or even guesses as to such.

Robert M. Fenner,
San Diego, CA

You can't always trust what you read.
The media will spin ANY story.

I don't think all the information is in.

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13560120#post13560120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Letmegrow
You can't always trust what you read.
The media will spin ANY story.

I don't think all the information is in.

Does that matter? Where in there is a good reason to buy WC instead of TR?

 

[Letmegrow]

I don't think I touched base on that at all Wolverine ?

Yeah buy captive bred always, there is my opinion, I am glad you asked for it.

 

[jhildebrand]

It's just that common sense dictates you stop collecting for the trade as soon as you can breed them. If we were taking corals out of the wild the way we're going through propagated frags we'd be in a world of hurt. This is a hobby that could easily be legislated right away from us one island at a time as the demand for product makes things disappear. We're not anywhere near being able to support our needs and demands for what we take from the wild. Isn't it our responsibility to take only specimens with good populations and to leave alone ones in peril? And isn't the end goal to be able to breed enough captive specimens that we aren't dependent on the wild ones? There are many ways local economies can make a living off of these natural resources without depleting them.

 

[madtek580]

the main problem I see is not enough availability of captive breed fish, I can only have so many aquacultured clowns before I want something different. I would love to buy only captive breed but in areas like mine ie smaller towns the LFS only stock WC because either that is all they can get in the quantity they need or the profit margin is better. When I try to buy Captive breed online, it seems all the retailers are out of the fish I would like and I have to go on a waiting list just to order what I want. I have no problem paying more but I can't buy them if their not available.

 

[jhildebrand]

I posted the main question to the LA forum and this was the response:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13564925#post13564925

 

[Letmegrow]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13564511#post13564511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jhildebrand
There are many ways local economies can make a living off of these natural resources without depleting them.

I think the island nations that export these are more concerened about their economy making a living off them than they are with us.

 

[terimar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13561892#post13561892 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Wolverine
Does that matter? Where in there is a good reason to buy WC instead of TR?

$

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13574380#post13574380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by terimar
$

A few dollars is a "good" reason? I disagree.

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13562095#post13562095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Letmegrow
I don't think I touched base on that at all Wolverine ?

In the context of this conversation, things like that are generally posted as a justification for continuing to buy wild-caught.

 

[Letmegrow]

What I posted was to shed some light, not sway anyone.

 

[terimar]

Around here I can buy a WC Bangai for $10-$12. A tankraised one costs $25. That $15 represents an hour of my time spent busting my butt. Since Bangais are a renewable resource I can't justify the extra money. If they were in a situation similar to some of the FW Goodeids I keep, it would be a different matter altogether. And because of the low price differential between WC and TR Clownfish( only a dollar or two) I bought TR Clowns. I just can't place the same value on a plentiful fish as you I guess. Does that make me a bad person?

 

[jhildebrand]

Uh, right..............However...

Animals are a renewable resource when they are not only plentiful, but managed correctly as well. This is a great example of something that is not being managed well at all. Where are you getting your info on this species??? If they're gone completely, ya can't so much manage it anymore. Never mind that whenever an article comes out citing examples about how the reefing industry is exploiting/destroying certain species it makes what we do look terrible in the eyes of the unknowing public.

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13579269#post13579269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by terimar
Around here I can buy a WC Bangai for $10-$12. A tankraised one costs $25. That $15 represents an hour of my time spent busting my butt. Since Bangais are a renewable resource I can't justify the extra money.

Look at how much money you've likely spent in this hobby. I'd be surprised if that $15 is a sizeable percentage.

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13578846#post13578846 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Letmegrow
What I posted was to shed some light, not sway anyone.

:thumbsup:

 

[terimar]

Who should I believe about the status of Bangai Cardinals? jhildebrand or Bob Fenner? Every penny I spend on anything is a concious decision based on all the pertinent facts that I'm aware of. A dollar is a dollar regardless of what percentage of whatever I choose to spend it on it represents. First and foremost that dollar represents my time which is a finite resource which is most definitely in too short a supply!

 

[jhildebrand]

Are you kidding me? One guy who could be considered an expert has a differing opinion from virtually everyone else - never mind that he hasn't done an actual scientific study- and his word is law? By the way, I never claimed to be right when it comes to their status, but based on the information available to the general public this species is not doing well and could be in trouble shortly. It would be completely ignorant to think otherwise...