Issue with cupramine and ttm

[hairalgae85]

Good morning,

Just throwing this out there to see what info may be discovered.

I have a dusemeri tang that I had go thru ttm, 72 hour transfers, 5 times.on transfer 2 and 4, I used prazi pro.

On transfer 1,3,5, I used .5 cupramine. I wanted to try this as a short, preventative against ich and velvet alike.

Even if this is not a bullet proof plan against velvet, will this throw off the ich treatment of ttm.

I still plan on observing during a month of qt observation, however, knowing most will observe a month, before placing on and looking for velvet, I figured to treat at same time as ttm, as to not allow it to be a carrier.

 

[Dmorty217]

Good morning,

Just throwing this out there to see what info may be discovered.

I have a dusemeri tang that I had go thru ttm, 72 hour transfers, 5 times.on transfer 2 and 4, I used prazi pro.

On transfer 1,3,5, I used .5 cupramine. I wanted to try this as a short, preventative against ich and velvet alike.

Even if this is not a bullet proof plan against velvet, will this throw off the ich treatment of ttm.

I still plan on observing during a month of qt observation, however, knowing most will observe a month, before placing on and looking for velvet, I figured to treat at same time as ttm, as to not allow it to be a carrier.

Cupramine at anything less than the recommended dosage for 30 days is a waste of time for ich. Copper isn't the best method for treating velvet, CP is the drug of choice

 

[hairalgae85]

I read and know that, just can't make senss of it. If ich fall off the fish within 2-7days, and then need to encyst and swim back to the fish, and copper is present, that copper shield should prevent everything that happens after they drop off the fish

 

[Dmorty217]

I read and know that, just can't make senss of it. If ich fall off the fish within 2-7days, and then need to encyst and swim back to the fish, and copper is present, that copper shield should prevent everything that happens after they drop off the fish

Not all of the ich stages occur in the 2-7 days and cysts can lay dormant for up to 72 days. I guess I can't figure out why you are TTM and using cupramine? There is no added benefit. Even fish that have active infections can take 7-10 days to rid the fish of visible spots. Copper just isn't that effective at curing ich. It takes longer than 3 days to have any affect on ich

 

[hairalgae85]

Not all of the ich stages occur in the 2-7 days and cysts can lay dormant for up to 72 days. I guess I can't figure out why you are TTM and using cupramine? There is no added benefit. Even fish that have active infections can take 7-10 days to rid the fish of visible spots. Copper just isn't that effective at curing ich. It takes longer than 3 days to have any affect on ich

I am doing ttm, just did copper as a protective barrier in case tank items didn't dry thoroughly from prior use and any stragglers that may make there way across to transfer.

Again, I believe you, I just don't see how it adds up. If the tomont encyst, and takes 72 days, that's fine, by the time they hatch,t he fish are long gone out of there.

Any that hatch prior, would have to make it thru copper. If what you're saying is true about not all ich fall off in the 2-7 day period, then ttm shouldn't work either , because it sounds like that's how the treatment is based around l. If they hatch at day 13, then the 12 day ttm didn't last long enough.

 

[Dmorty217]

They fall off in within 72 hrs but they don't all hatch at the same time. Copper needs more than 3 days exposure to ich to be effective in killing it is why the cupramine isn't going to do anything.

 

[ThRoewer]

They fall off in within 72 hrs but they don't all hatch at the same time. Copper needs more than 3 days exposure to ich to be effective in killing it is why the cupramine isn't going to do anything.

The 72h come from the shortest excystment time, not from how long the parasite can stay on the fish. The latter is actually 7 days and the reason why you have to do 3 transfers to clean the fish up. The 4th transfer is a safety measure.

Copper, at the correct dosage, should kill all free ich stages (tomite and protomont) pretty much within minutes, but the feeding and cysts stages are shielded from it by either the fish's skin (theront) or the shell of the cysts (tomont).

The 2 main issues with copper are:
1. The minimum lethal dose for the parasite is pretty much also the highest dose many fish can handle.
2. Copper is an immunosuppressant, and as such may open the door for other infections. Lymphocystis is the most common.

As for velvet - copper may or may not work depending on the velvet strain you are dealing with. Some can handle twice the lethal dose for fish.
While Chloroquine Phosphate is generally the better weapon of choice against this parasite, it has its limits as well.
1. It can't be used with all fish species: Pipefish, Seahorses and many Wrasses can't handle it and have to be treated with copper.
2. CP is a tricky drug since there is no cheap way to test for it. Age may reduce its effectiveness. The biggest concerns are that certain bacteria may break it down and the fact that it likes to attach to glass surfaces.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[hairalgae85]

The 72h come from the shortest excystment time, not from how long the parasite can stay on the fish. The latter is actually 7 days and the reason why you have to do 3 transfers to clean the fish up. The 4th transfer is a safety measure.

Copper, at the correct dosage, should kill all free ich stages (tomite and protomont) pretty much within minutes, but the feeding and cysts stages are shielded from it by either the fish's skin (theront) or the shell of the cysts (tomont).

The 2 main issues with copper are:
1. The minimum lethal dose for the parasite is pretty much also the highest dose many fish can handle.
2. Copper is an immunosuppressant, and as such may open the door for other infections. Lymphocystis is the most common.

As for velvet - copper may or may not work depending on the velvet strain you are dealing with. Some can handle twice the lethal dose for fish.
While Chloroquine Phosphate is generally the better weapon of choice against this parasite, it has its limits as well.
1. It can't be used with all fish species: Pipefish, Seahorses and many Wrasses can't handle it and have to be treated with copper.
2. CP is a tricky drug since there is no cheap way to test for it. Age may reduce its effectiveness. The biggest concerns are that certain bacteria may break it down and the fact that it likes to attach to glass surfaces.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I.feel this is all true, and if so, 8 days in copper, should eradicate it. If the longest time the fish can carry it in them, protected by their skin, is 7 days, then by going 8 (call it 10 for insurance), days of copper would kill anything not on the fish.

The ones that happen to encyst at the bottom, well great, the fish is removed after 10 days to the display. If they hatch out while the fish is present, well, then so is the copper.

To further visualize (again thinking out loud) the two stages copper.kills, the free swimmers going to and from the fish, can't live with copper. The ones embedded on the fish can, but for only 7 days. Waiting that 10 days, would mean they are all of the fish by now,i n route to the bottom, but copper should stop that.

That takes care of 3/4 stages. The last, is the encysted ones. Of they hatch while the fish is in there , well now there free swimmers, and met with copper. If they hatch after the 10 days, well the fish is already gone and there is no host.

Please correct me. By going 10 days, the copper will meet everything ich wise.e except for what lays in the protected cyst stage. One of two things will happen after 10 days. The fish will be.moved, and that cyst is null and void, or it will hatch and have to overcome copper.

 

[kmbyrnes]

Still unsure why you feel copper is needed along with TTM for ich?
TTM alone will take care of 99+% of the parasites in all stages.

 

[hairalgae85]

I wouldn't use both. Ttm for 14 days or 10 days straight copper.

From what im told here, ttm only helps with ich. No flukes, velvet etc