JapanReef - 450 gallon In-Wall system
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
jnarowe
New member
All I can say is WOW! Very ineteresting rig. I take it that it is easy to pull that sponge out? I am always the pros and cons of sponges and filter floss as I know they trap good stuf too.
I don't think mapping the plumbing will help in the case of your micro bubble issue but I do have a couple of comments about your plumbing.
First, you have one heck of a lot of 90's in that return line and each one adds to your head loss. That may be an issue if you spec'd the flow rate of the Pan World without taking all those bends into account.
Also, why do you have the bulkhead installed in the euro-bracing? That is one thing that may be contributing to your micro bubble problem depending on how it is installed. Did you use pipe dope or plumbers tape in the male adapter that connects to the bulkhead? It wouldn't be neccessary to stop leaks but it would allow air to venturi through the threads.
Detail pics of the sump would help in regards to solving the micro bubbles issue.
I don't think mapping the plumbing will help in the case of your micro bubble issue but I do have a couple of comments about your plumbing.
First, you have one heck of a lot of 90's in that return line and each one adds to your head loss. That may be an issue if you spec'd the flow rate of the Pan World without taking all those bends into account.
Also, why do you have the bulkhead installed in the euro-bracing? That is one thing that may be contributing to your micro bubble problem depending on how it is installed. Did you use pipe dope or plumbers tape in the male adapter that connects to the bulkhead? It wouldn't be neccessary to stop leaks but it would allow air to venturi through the threads.
Detail pics of the sump would help in regards to solving the micro bubbles issue.
melev
Well-known member
In this picture, the <b>top</b> of the vertical pipe pressed into a 90 (leading away from the viewer and toward the pump) is the one connection that doesn't appear to have any glue on it. http://japanreef.com/images/misc/plumbing3.jpg
You do have a ton of elbows. I'd prefer to see you use Spaflex for the majority of that, leading up to the Tee, then again from the Tee to the bulkhead at the lip of the tank. You'd get so much more flow from your pump, and probably less heat, if you eliminated 8 elbows or more. Even the final ones could be replaced with two 45s to soften that area.
A big plus would be the reduction of connections, which are potential spots where air could be entering. Flex hose from the fitting at the pump goes all the way to the Tee, then flex to each side to a couple of 45s going into the bulkhead.
I know you said it is hard or near impossible to get into your sump to get a good look, but it would be nice if we could get an idea of what the microbubble situation is like in there, especially in the return section. If you can make some type of viewing box, I would press it down into the water of that compartment, and then using a flashlight, try to see if you can observe microbubbles traveling in that zone. If it looks crystal clear, the problem is not in the sump and must be after the sump (on the way to the pump, or after the pump).
You do have a ton of elbows. I'd prefer to see you use Spaflex for the majority of that, leading up to the Tee, then again from the Tee to the bulkhead at the lip of the tank. You'd get so much more flow from your pump, and probably less heat, if you eliminated 8 elbows or more. Even the final ones could be replaced with two 45s to soften that area.
A big plus would be the reduction of connections, which are potential spots where air could be entering. Flex hose from the fitting at the pump goes all the way to the Tee, then flex to each side to a couple of 45s going into the bulkhead.
I know you said it is hard or near impossible to get into your sump to get a good look, but it would be nice if we could get an idea of what the microbubble situation is like in there, especially in the return section. If you can make some type of viewing box, I would press it down into the water of that compartment, and then using a flashlight, try to see if you can observe microbubbles traveling in that zone. If it looks crystal clear, the problem is not in the sump and must be after the sump (on the way to the pump, or after the pump).
Jonathan - all I need to do is twist out the bushing from the adapter so incredibly simple. I also believe that the 180 angle up by the bracing is causing the bubbles somehow and that is the only section that wasn't reglued or retaped. It made sense at the time anyway...
Marc - I'll check that connection in a minute. Even with all those connections I have to choke off the pump because I only have to deliver 800gph to my skimmer. I could never get my head around spa-flex but I do have some that I was going to use somewhere. But put off by how I glue it into adapters as I heard it needed a different type of glue than normal pipe....
Marc - I'll check that connection in a minute. Even with all those connections I have to choke off the pump because I only have to deliver 800gph to my skimmer. I could never get my head around spa-flex but I do have some that I was going to use somewhere. But put off by how I glue it into adapters as I heard it needed a different type of glue than normal pipe....
dgasmd
New member
I'd hate to tell you a huge source of your micro bubbles as the sollution is going to be a huge PITA. However, here it is. You used 1" pipe for the intake of the pump as the pumps n and out are 1" too, but you have a ton of pipe before the inlet of the pump and some elbows on top of it. That creates a lot of resistance to the intake side making the pump sort of cavitate = creates micro bubbles. That section of the tubing should have been done in at least 1.5" PVC if not 2". I have the same pump as you and had the same issue at first. I tried just about everything I could until I upsized the pipe to 2" diameter. To test it, close the output valve right at the pump and then open it ever so slightly to allow about 1/4 of the water putput only. Then, go look at the output in the tank and see if you can spot any microbubbles coming out. If not, you found your solution and problem at the same time. Of course this is assuming you are not creating the micro bubbles inside the sump int he first place, but regardless this is a major problem. Take it for what it is worth..................
Thanks for the input and I'm definitely open to trying anything. So it's the pipe before the pump that needs to be a larger diameter? I.e. Sump > Pump (rather than Pump > Tank)? The sump bulkhead and pump are both 1" so can I just put a 1"x1.5" or 1"x2" bushing there?
dgasmd
New member
Yes, that is the pipe. But, you are ding nothing by increasing the pipe size of the hole where the water is going to come out is still 1". So, you ahve to upsize the hole and bulkhead too. I personally would increase the home to fit a 2" bulkhead and run 2" diameter PVC all the way to the pump. Then just put a reducing bushing from 2"x1" right at the pump. Also, you might want to put a 2" valve right before it too. At least that is what I would do. to quote myself again I'd hate to tell you a huge source of your micro bubbles as the solution is going to be a huge PITA. :lol: :lol: :lol:
jnarowe
New member
Good point. I forgot about that. Laurence, typically we use 1/2 to 1" larger intake pipe to allow the pump to get enough water and avoid cavitation. On my system, my intake is 1-1/2" as well as the outbound side, all the way to the manifold. The manifold then is made of 1-1/2 x 1" Tees which feed 1" lines to my tank and auxiliary equipment.
I also had to install a 2" screen to diffuse the intake water and avoid any cavitation in the sump. This is an old picture and I have a different sump and the screen is still being used but with only one section.
I also had to install a 2" screen to diffuse the intake water and avoid any cavitation in the sump. This is an old picture and I have a different sump and the screen is still being used but with only one section.
dgasmd
New member
Good point about the screen intakes. Most people use the most popular ones in the hobby pictures here below even though they restrict water flow a lot, but the ones further down are much much better as they do not restrict water flow at all. Even better, they come in 1 1/2", 2", and 3".
Bad ones for high flow
I use these ones for everything. No snail or even small crab get by them. They are not supposed to be a detritus trap either.
Much better ones
By the way, I would highly recommend that you get the 3 series book by Delbeek and Sprung. The third and last book is excellent in the plumbing section addressing some or a lot of questions you may have about what you have already done and what you may want to do in the future.
Bad ones for high flow
I use these ones for everything. No snail or even small crab get by them. They are not supposed to be a detritus trap either.
Much better ones
By the way, I would highly recommend that you get the 3 series book by Delbeek and Sprung. The third and last book is excellent in the plumbing section addressing some or a lot of questions you may have about what you have already done and what you may want to do in the future.
I can easily add teh bushings and 2" pipe but I can't change the bulkhead to a 2" because I can't remove the sump to drill it even if I knew how to drill it.
So the question is, will upsizing that bit of pipe be enough? Because I'd hate to have to go through all that for nothing.
Also, as you can see in the pic, I have to choke off the PanWorld by 50% anyway as I only need 800gph and it puts out 1500gph I believe.
So the question is, will upsizing that bit of pipe be enough? Because I'd hate to have to go through all that for nothing.
Also, as you can see in the pic, I have to choke off the PanWorld by 50% anyway as I only need 800gph and it puts out 1500gph I believe.
jnarowe
New member
The choking may be a major part of the problem. Rather than choke it, redirecting some flow back into the sump would be better IMO. I have a T and a valve just after the water leaves my pump, and the T leads back to the sump. This allows the pump to operate unencumbered, as well as helps prime the pump after a shut down...we may actually be getting somewhere!
Well, dgasmd said to choke it back 75% to test if no microbubbles appear....
And if you remember I switched the skimmer to gravity feed and half the flow through the pump to elimate the possibility of microbubbles there....
So I always had them even when the pump was at full throttle.
And if you remember I switched the skimmer to gravity feed and half the flow through the pump to elimate the possibility of microbubbles there....
So I always had them even when the pump was at full throttle.
dgasmd
New member
Sounds like it is not your sump then. Also, if you only have 800 gph going from tank to sump and back, it is way too little. I would be running that pump wide open. If at 800 gph you are seeing microbubbles from the retun, it is likely your intake. I don't know what to tell you about other solutions, but ultimately if the sump itself is not dumping the microbubbles to the return pump, I have already told you the solution above. By the way, what do you mean you cannot get the sump out? Why not? If it is physically impossible to get it out, then you seriously have a bigger problem than just some micro bubbles.
Here is the other link:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8566/cid/2098
Here is the other link:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8566/cid/2098
You told me the solution but it's not too clear. I did ask you if upsizing the pipe only would be enough....
I can prolly get the sump out. I mean it went in - just. But I have no idea how to drill acrylic having no DIY skills.
Maybe I could try the bushings and the pipe first? If I removed the sump, drilled it and hooked up the 2" line and still had microbubbles I'd be totally gutted.
jnarowe
New member
I would approach it from one end to the other looking at each item mentioned that could draw air into the system. The way that you have that top-mount BH that thing could be drawing air through the threads and creating a venturi effect or even just flowing into the tank from above the water level would do it. What is after the BH?
Start there and work your way toward the sump. As far as the flexible PVC goes, some is PVC and some isn't. I have gotten both and been surprised by the "fake". Try testing a piece with some PVC cement and see how it bonds. You could also put sweep elbows in to reduce resistance.
BTW, your DIY skills won't get any better unless you start tearing stuff apart! :lol:
Start there and work your way toward the sump. As far as the flexible PVC goes, some is PVC and some isn't. I have gotten both and been surprised by the "fake". Try testing a piece with some PVC cement and see how it bonds. You could also put sweep elbows in to reduce resistance.
BTW, your DIY skills won't get any better unless you start tearing stuff apart! :lol:
dgasmd
New member
I did answer the question about just upsizing the pipe. Drilling acrylic is retarded stupid. Get a dril and a hole saw to the size required for a 2" bulkhead. Center the hole saw over the existing hole, and drill away. It is that simple. You will ahve to start slow to make a groove for the hole saw so it does not slip ut of place, but it should not take you more than 2 min. to do this even going slow for a first time. Once the hole saw is actually drilling in place, go fast all the way through to prevent the acrylic from melting over the hole saw and getting the entire thing stuck. This is a very minor point though.
I also agree that you should seal with PVC glue (the blue stuff is great for this) all the joints fromt he bulkhead in the sump to the pump and allt he way back to the tank itself. Having to get the sump drilled and out is a great opportunity to redo all that. If you think you are the first to ahve to tear half a system to fix something small, think again. I have redone my close loops 3 times now and probably jsut about everything in the tank once or twice by now. It is what it is.
I still recommend that you get the books I mentioned. It willc ertainly help you in future things too. A well stocked library is a priceless tool. RC will only take you so far:lol:
