Keeping fish happy

[wuster77]

So for some reason my fish cannot have a long life in my tank. I set up my tank a year ago and it seems like more than half of them wont make it past 2 months. I quarantine them and don't spread any diseases to the display tank. Here are the species that didn't make it past 2 months: Tomato clown, coral beauty, and even two green chromis. My tank is 44 gallons, so I am sure it is large enough.

Now I know you guys are all thinking that my water is probably very bad and that I am one of those people that don't know what I am doing. Well I really do try the best I can.

Anyways, there were also no signs of aggression between the fish and all were eating well except for one fish. I acclimate them by floating for at least 20-30 mins then drip over 1hr.

I introduced my first frags last month (5 sps and 1lps) and all are doing well except for my birdnest which isn't exactly coloring up, but still green. No growth, but no signs of health decline. So that's good.

Here are my tank parameters:
Tank: 44gal
Temp: 76-77F
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.3
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: <<5ppm
Phosphate: 0
Calcium: 410-420
Alkalinity: 9dkh

All the parameters have been unchanged for the past 6+ months except for the nitrate level which was about 10ppm in June 08, but is now about 1-2ppm.

So any idea why many fish I keep cannot live a long and happy life (when all the corals are happy)?

 

[snorvich]

A six lined wrasse can be very aggressive. Are you sure there is no aggression?

 

[wuster77]

I understand they can be aggressive, but I don't think my specific one does anything to anyone. It is constantly looking down at the rocks and sand in search for food. That's just about the only thing he does. And, it is also the last fish I added and I have not lost any fish since he was in the tank either. So the wrasse is not the cause. The tomato clown is only aggressive when people are watching him. I guess that's the result of being tank raised, but he's generally very passive other than that. So, I don't think aggression is much of a problem in the tank.

 

[Todd March]

Really, honestly, I don't want to be flippant, butâ€"fish die. In this hobby you have to learn to deal with it. Over the years I would say on average I have lost at least a quarter (maybe more) of all fish within the first month... Saltwater fish are delicate creatures, their bodies have to deal with salt osmosis, much higher nitrogen levels than in the wild, dietary changes from the vast and wild ocean to the frozen dead we feed them...

And a few speciesâ€"Anthias and Green Chromis come to mindâ€"expire at even higher mortality rates than average.

Don't get wigged out unless your loss rate exceeds 50%, then I would say something is wrong.

 

[wuster77]

Hi Todd. I understand that saltwater fish are delicate animal and many will not survive the initial stress induced on them. The reason I asked for help is that about half of my fish did not make it. Now it just so happens that you said if my loss rate is more than 50%, there is something wrong. Well there it is. You said it. 50%. Now I am wondering if THERE IS something wrong. On the other hand, the fact that my corals are happy makes me wonder why more delicate creatures can be happy in my tank while relatively easy fish cannot even survive.

One possible explanation is that the low survival rate is caused by the stress during capture and shipment and has nothing to do with what I did. To date, I purchased my fish from three different stores, two of which had an outbreak of ich, luckily in the quarantine tank. The third store is where I got the two chromis that did not make it. Neither one had any signs of disease, and both were eating well, but neither survived the two month mark. Kinda weird I know, but it seems like whether there's disease or not, about half the fish I keep cannot make it past about 2-3 months.

Any clue what may be wrong?

 

[chrisstie]

Is it possible you have some kind of stray voltage? Or maybe while you listed your temperature, are you running a heater or chiller to keep it stable when the seasons change and temperature fluctuations could occur?

I would also maybe bring the dkH up to 10 and see if they dont fare a little better. That can fluctuate during the day so maybe its dropping slow and shortening the lifespan of the fish?

The other things I can think of are to check the accuracy of your test kits- are they fresh, how are you measuring your salinity? Hydrometers can be inaccurate and refractometers are better- but need to stay in calibration. Whether you're making your own water or getting it from the LFS its always good to check your equipment against others for descrepancies.

Once I was working at an LFS and we found our refractometer had become uncalibrated and for some reason just stopped working very well. We checked it against others we sold and low and behold we were mixing our salt a tad too high. We quickly corrected the problem and threw out the old refractometer.

These are just a few of the things I can think of off the top of my head. Another would be how are you treating the fish in QT? Copper? Simple observation and feeding? Dips?

 

[wuster77]

Hi chrisstie, I do have a heater, but not chiller, although my temperature never fluctuates more like 2 degrees within 24 hours, and is actually within a degree throughout the entire day most of the time, both in the quarantine and display tanks.

About the stray voltage, how would I be able to test for that? Also I would assume that the stray voltage will affect all fish and live stock in that tank, am I not correct? Because it seems like some fish do well, while others don't.

My test kits all have an expiration date of 2010 to 2011, so I don't think they are expired. Plus, if the test kits are indeed bad, I think the corals will not be happy either. As for measuring salinity, I am still using a hydrometer (I know I know). It's not the most accurate, but I notice it being really precise between each test. I believe the reading on my hydrometer is about 0.001-0.002 off from the actual specific gravity. Right now I am reading 1.024g/ml, so it's going to be about 1.025-1.026g/l. Isn't stability more important than the actual salinity?

BTW, which refractometer are you using and how do you like it?

I guess the last thing is how I quarantine my fish. I float them in the bag to acclimate temperature in the quarantine tank, dip acclimate for an hour or so, then place them into the quarantine. I don't use copper, freshwater dips, or any kind of dip. The temperature in the quarantine is also the same as that in the display almost all the time at about 76-77F. I take a large sponge out of my display tank and place it into the quarantine to help with the biological filtration. The water in the quarantine is also from the display. There is also a simple filter used in the quarantine. The fish is in the quarantine for at least two weeks, but mostly +3 weeks. And yea, just observation, feeding, water change and clean filter every 2 days using water from the display tank.

Anyways, I will try to verify my water parameters to make sure all readings are accurate.

Lastly, I want to thank everyone that commented for their time and patience to read through all this.

 

[chrisstie]

What I would do is take a sample of your water and find and LFS, friend, club or whomever to double check your salinity against your hydrometer. While stability is always a priority, if its too high or too low more sensative critters could be dying. I've seen hydrometers read proper say 1.024 but with a refractometer the water ended up being 1.030 which is very, very bad!

you can at least rule that out. Are you changing the water in the QT as well? Just make sure there isn't ammonia or nitrites in there. Without dips or copper (I prefer not to use copper unless a fish say, has brook and its very crucial to treat quickly) you could have some fish with something like flukes that are killing off other fish. Do you ever see any torn up looking fins? Thats the easiest way to spot them.

Sounds like your temps are stable and thats good. Your corals are good.. stray voltage would be measured with a tool (which sadly im forgetitng now maybe someone else can help me on that) or a tingling sensation in an open cut on your finger. People usually notice it on their cuticle.

 

[mcintosh]

Wuster, hate to say it, but the fish you describe (coral beauty, tomotoe clown, and blue chromis) are not the hardiest of fish. You may have very good water conditions and you may still lose these fish. The one thing I would advise (and I believe most will back me up) is that you shouldn't float a closed bag. Some "research" indicates that what most people have attributed as cyanide poisoning is not and can be attributed to poor acclimation practices. I will look it up and post it for you later.

Floating an unopened bag leads to oxygen deprivation and can cause enough stress to kill them over time. Open the bag and let the CO2 out of the bag. Not much else I can recommend.

 

[wuster77]

chrisstie, I will double check on the parameters with someone when I get a chance. About my QT, yes I am changing water once every 2-3 days using water from the DT. The initial QT water is from the DT as well. Ammonia and nitrite both remain at 0 and nitrate no higher than 10ppm all the time in the QT. As for the stray voltage, I never felt anything weird like that even though I have cuts on my hand a lot. Guess that's a good thing.

mcintosh, I'll try out your open the bag floating method. I didn't think that short amount of time will hurt the fish. Also, can you explain more on what you mean when you said I don't have the hardiest fish. I know they are not freshwater fish hardy by any means, but I am sure they are not SPS delicate.

I'll update you guys when I try out your suggestions. Thanks guys!

 

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14267283#post14267283 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wuster77
but I am sure they are not SPS delicate...

For what it's worth, I have had MUCH higher success rates (with no acclimation procedures, and dipping in ReVive to boot) with SPS frags, mostly Acros at that, than I have had with fish...! If I could get my fish survival rate to match my SPS survival rate I would be a happy camper...!

As for what mcintosh mentioned, Coral Beauty's and Chromis among others, have very low survival rates. To make things more in your favor, make sure that they eat in the store, particularly for harder to get to eat species like Coral Beauty's. Chromis will often eat and still go belly up; I'd put my Chromis survival rate at pretty close to 50/50. If I want 6-7, I always buy about 10 of them and hope...

 

[wuster77]

Well glad I am not the only person with this problem, or else I really am doing something wrong. This is a newbie question, but I thought Chromis are supposed to be hardy. If not, what is hardy? Any suggestions?

BTW, why do people say corals are hard when they tend to have higher survival rates? Just curious.

 

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14268372#post14268372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wuster77
Well glad I am not the only person with this problem, or else I really am doing something wrong. This is a newbie question, but I thought Chromis are supposed to be hardy. If not, what is hardy? Any suggestions?

BTW, why do people say corals are hard when they tend to have higher survival rates? Just curious.

Well, as far as corals, I guess I should specify that I have a good tank and work hard at itâ€"undetectable nutrients, and unwavering parameters. So that makes for a good SPS environment. When they say hard, they can be, if your parameters are not stable and your nutrients too high... And some Acro frags (wild caught and maricultured are a whole 'nother story...!) just sit there for months, doing nothing and rarely showing any polyps, but they don't die... For a beginner hobbyist that has any trouble with PO4's or maintaing rock solid alkalinity levels (never wavering much more than .5 dKH), SPS can indeed be hard...

Chromis are very hardy, eat almost anything, and grow fastâ€"when they survive...! Something is amiss with about 30-40% of them, IME, and they just die. They often won't eat and just slowly perish, or they are eating very well and then dead the next day (same for Anthias). Plus, Chromis can very aggressive with one another, and often fight till they either kill each other, or stress the weaker fish out so much he just succumbs (I think flow has a lot to do with this, in high flow tanks they are fighting the current so much, they have less time to fight with each other. I think of my Vortech as a "fishy treadmill"). But, again, when Chromis survive and learn to live in a small tank with one another, they can be very hardy. That's why I strongly advise to buy more than you'll need by a third, and buy them and add them all at once...

I added 8 Green Chromis 3 months ago, and now have 4 healthy growing Chromis that bicker a little, but usually are too busy fighting the Vortech or keeping an eye on my aggressive male Bartletts Anthias to get into too much serious trouble with one another...

P.S. The Blue Chromis from the Caribbean have even worse survival rates than the more common Green Chromis. They ship just terribly. When dealing with the Blue Reef Chromis, account for more like a 60% loss rate...!

 

[wuster77]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Todd. I guess fish and corals are just that different. Guess loosing fish is the sad reality I have to face and sometimes there is nothing I can do about it. Whereas, the well-being of my corals are more controllable?

Oh speaking of water stability, how much of an increase of calcium and alkalinity can I dose each time? Is your 0.5dkh per day?

 

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14268637#post14268637 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wuster77
Thanks for the detailed explanation Todd. I guess fish and corals are just that different. Guess loosing fish is the sad reality I have to face and sometimes there is nothing I can do about it. Whereas, the well-being of my corals are more controllable?

Oh speaking of water stability, how much of an increase of calcium and alkalinity can I dose each time? Is your 0.5dkh per day?

Yeah, I guess you sure can think of your corals health being more controllable than that of fish. Fish comes with their own set of issues (worms, bacteria, viruses), but they don't normally get too ill from calcium and alkalinity and PO4 levels...

I mean no more than .5 dkh ever. Now okay, that isn't entirely possible, I realize that, but that's the kind of fanatic stability I shoot for and has what ensured my highly successful frag survival rate. My latest tank has been set up for 6 months now, and since that time I have used a Schuran Calcium reactor, dosed soda ash and calcium chloride powders by hand, and now have an automated 2-Part/Balling system (with peri pumps) using the recipes and supplements from bulkreefsupply.com. But during all of this, from day one, my alkalinity has always been between 7-8 dKH (usually at 7.5 dKH, for 80% of these last 6 months), and my calcium has always been between 400 ppm and 440 ppm (usually at 420 ppm, 80% of the time for these last 6 months). My magnesium has always been very stable too, between 1300 ppm and 1350 ppm.

If you need to raise your levels, it's not real crucial for calcium, but 25 ppm per day is a very safe amount to raise it. Alkalinity is more crucialâ€"I would say shoot for around .25 dKH per day... If you only need to raise it by .5 dKH total, you can do this all at once, I've done that, no problem. But if ultimately your dKH will be 1-2 dKH higher in the end, go a little slower so that often fresh frags can adjust to just the overall higher levels very slowly...

 

[Todd March]

Hey, an invaluable aid I have found to easily maintain the 3 big reef tank parameters is this online calculator:

http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html