Kent Buffer vs. baking soda vs. 2 part
- Thread starter ninjamini
- Start date
Ding2daDong
New member
LOL you love starting debates don't you?
I did the randy's two part solution mix and started losing color in my sps. I had great success with bionic 2 part for over a year and switched because of how cost effective it was. To make a long story short, I swtiched back to bionic 2 part and my corals started coloring back up within days!
I am pretty sure that baking soda and kent marine buffer are the samething.
hth
-Matthew
I did the randy's two part solution mix and started losing color in my sps. I had great success with bionic 2 part for over a year and switched because of how cost effective it was. To make a long story short, I swtiched back to bionic 2 part and my corals started coloring back up within days!
I am pretty sure that baking soda and kent marine buffer are the samething.
hth
-Matthew
jeffbrig
Premium Member
Just to counterpoint Matt, I use the DIY 2-part and my corals are colored up just fine. 
I agree though, I wouldn't spend the money on Kent unless you have a REALLY small tank and find it very convenient. As far as commercially prepared 2-parts go, I'm dosing better than 200mL daily, so you can imagine what that would cost.
My other beef with most of the branded supplements is that many won't tell you what's in them. I don't want to add things that I'm not testing for, and the best way to guarantee that is to mix my own - CaCl for Ca, (baked) baking soda for Alk, and MagFlake + Epsom salt for Magnesium.
I agree though, I wouldn't spend the money on Kent unless you have a REALLY small tank and find it very convenient. As far as commercially prepared 2-parts go, I'm dosing better than 200mL daily, so you can imagine what that would cost.
My other beef with most of the branded supplements is that many won't tell you what's in them. I don't want to add things that I'm not testing for, and the best way to guarantee that is to mix my own - CaCl for Ca, (baked) baking soda for Alk, and MagFlake + Epsom salt for Magnesium.
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
Are you relying on what the package says is actually in the baking soda?
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
Food Grade does not necessarily mean that it is good for a reef tank (or our bodies for that matter).
A package of Arm and Hammer only lists Sodium Bicarbonate as an ingredient. So this means that it is 100% sodium bicarbonate?
If you were to purchase 100% sodium bicarbonate directly from a chemical company it would come to you in solid block form. The FDA obviously doesn't consider anti-caking agents to be of enough importance to be listed as ingredients.
Aluminum Silicate is one compound used as an anti-caking agent. Doesn't sound exactly reef safe to me.
There's an interesting thread on another forum that discusses this in more detail but for fear of being banned I won't post a link here.
I'll PM it to you.
A package of Arm and Hammer only lists Sodium Bicarbonate as an ingredient. So this means that it is 100% sodium bicarbonate?
If you were to purchase 100% sodium bicarbonate directly from a chemical company it would come to you in solid block form. The FDA obviously doesn't consider anti-caking agents to be of enough importance to be listed as ingredients.
Aluminum Silicate is one compound used as an anti-caking agent. Doesn't sound exactly reef safe to me.
There's an interesting thread on another forum that discusses this in more detail but for fear of being banned I won't post a link here.
I'll PM it to you.
loyalrogue
New member
Please pm me. I'd like to see that link also.
jeffbrig
Premium Member
Just did a little digging over lunch, and came across a detailed chemical sheet from one producer of sodium bicarbonate.
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/Sodium bicarbonate.pdf
They mention a standard purity of >98%, with food/pharmaceutical grades >99% purity.
In a further breakdown of impurties, they list the following as potential contaminants:
Sodium carbonate <1%
Water < .5%
Chloride < .1%
Sulfate < .1%
Calcium < .1%
Nothing there of any significant concern, as all of these occur naturally in seawater.
Then as potential additives they list the following:
Calcium Distearate Ca(C18H35)2)2 < 1%
This additive is only present in certain grades. Depending on the particle size distribution and the application, calcium distearate is used sometimes to prevent anticaking (anticlogging) and to improve the free-flowing properties.
Tricalcium bis(orthophosphate) CA3(PO4)2 < 1%
This additive is only present in certain grades. Depending on the particle size distribution and the application, tricalcium bis(orthophosphate) is used sometimes to prevent anticaking (anticlogging) and to improve the freeflowing properties.
Of course, no specific mention was given as to what grades may contain an anti-caking agent.
As far as FDA approval / food grade, this is all they state:
Sodium bicarbonate is classified by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as a 'Generally Recognised as Safe' (GRAS) ingredient in food with no other limitation than current good manufacturing practice (FDA, 1978; FDA, 1983). In the EU it is approved as a food additive (EU, 2000) and a feed ingredient (EU, 1998).
So, I picked up the phone and called the number on the back of my Arm & Hammer bag. Straight from the horse's mouth, Church & Dwight (makers of Arm & Hammer) only manufactures one grade of sodium bicarbonate at their plant in Wyoming, and it is for both food and pharmaceutical use. They do not add any anti-caking agents. It is just sodium bicarbonate, subject to the impurties listed above.
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/Sodium bicarbonate.pdf
They mention a standard purity of >98%, with food/pharmaceutical grades >99% purity.
In a further breakdown of impurties, they list the following as potential contaminants:
Sodium carbonate <1%
Water < .5%
Chloride < .1%
Sulfate < .1%
Calcium < .1%
Nothing there of any significant concern, as all of these occur naturally in seawater.
Then as potential additives they list the following:
Calcium Distearate Ca(C18H35)2)2 < 1%
This additive is only present in certain grades. Depending on the particle size distribution and the application, calcium distearate is used sometimes to prevent anticaking (anticlogging) and to improve the free-flowing properties.
Tricalcium bis(orthophosphate) CA3(PO4)2 < 1%
This additive is only present in certain grades. Depending on the particle size distribution and the application, tricalcium bis(orthophosphate) is used sometimes to prevent anticaking (anticlogging) and to improve the freeflowing properties.
Of course, no specific mention was given as to what grades may contain an anti-caking agent.
As far as FDA approval / food grade, this is all they state:
Sodium bicarbonate is classified by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as a 'Generally Recognised as Safe' (GRAS) ingredient in food with no other limitation than current good manufacturing practice (FDA, 1978; FDA, 1983). In the EU it is approved as a food additive (EU, 2000) and a feed ingredient (EU, 1998).
So, I picked up the phone and called the number on the back of my Arm & Hammer bag. Straight from the horse's mouth, Church & Dwight (makers of Arm & Hammer) only manufactures one grade of sodium bicarbonate at their plant in Wyoming, and it is for both food and pharmaceutical use. They do not add any anti-caking agents. It is just sodium bicarbonate, subject to the impurties listed above.
loyalrogue
New member
Thanks for the indepth and detailed research, Jeff.
I'll continue using Arm & Hammer with peace of mind now.
I'll continue using Arm & Hammer with peace of mind now.
I spent about 30 minutes looking around for an "official" ingredient list to baking soda, specifically the A&H branded one. Couldn't find anything, except 1001 uses for the crap around the house that they've got on their site. Anything from baking with it, to washing clothes with it, to eating/drinking it as an upset stomach relief.
Thanks for finding that though Jeff
Thanks for finding that though Jeff
Rogger Castells
New member
Good research Mr. Vp
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
That is good research Jeff. I'm not sure that I believe that A&H doesn't contain anti-caking agents though. It stays free flowing sitting in my kitchen cabinet way too long to not have additives.
I'm certainly no scientist and was basically passing on some info that I do trust. Just as you have done with the research that you found.
Other than anti-caking agents I believe the second, and maybe more important reason against A&H use is that it is not a real buffer. It will increase ALK but will not allow PH to raise to desired levels (by itself) and thus create an imbalance in the water chemistry and more than likely fuel unwanted algae growth.
Do you mind if I copy your post? I'll see what the expert says about it.
I'm certainly no scientist and was basically passing on some info that I do trust. Just as you have done with the research that you found.
Other than anti-caking agents I believe the second, and maybe more important reason against A&H use is that it is not a real buffer. It will increase ALK but will not allow PH to raise to desired levels (by itself) and thus create an imbalance in the water chemistry and more than likely fuel unwanted algae growth.
Do you mind if I copy your post? I'll see what the expert says about it.
Last edited:
jeffbrig
Premium Member
You're welcome to copy any or all of it. However, I don't expect a positive response from the expert on the other site. His company is a manufacturer aquarium supplements, so not exactly an objective source. Casting doubt on low-cost supplementation schemes can only add to his bottom line.
Personally, I've never found buffers to be necessary in my reef tank. I also think they can be a bad thing, as people sometimes add excessive amounts of buffer to correct pH problems whe the underlying issue is low alkalinity. There is a direct relationship between alkalinity levels and pH, subject to modifying factors like dissolved CO2 levels. Adding straight baking soda gives off CO2 into the water, which depresses pH in the short term until the CO2 reaches equilibrium with the surrounding air. The higher alkalinity ultimate leads to higher pH.
Maintaining proper alkalinity is the biggest driver of pH, IME. Sodium bicarbonate is easy to use for this. Commercial alkalinity supplements start with sodium bicarbonate, and may add traces other elements. My belief is that the other elements are not necessary as long as you keep to a reglar water change schedule.
Personally, I've never found buffers to be necessary in my reef tank. I also think they can be a bad thing, as people sometimes add excessive amounts of buffer to correct pH problems whe the underlying issue is low alkalinity. There is a direct relationship between alkalinity levels and pH, subject to modifying factors like dissolved CO2 levels. Adding straight baking soda gives off CO2 into the water, which depresses pH in the short term until the CO2 reaches equilibrium with the surrounding air. The higher alkalinity ultimate leads to higher pH.
Maintaining proper alkalinity is the biggest driver of pH, IME. Sodium bicarbonate is easy to use for this. Commercial alkalinity supplements start with sodium bicarbonate, and may add traces other elements. My belief is that the other elements are not necessary as long as you keep to a reglar water change schedule.
Lifes A Beach
Premium Member
I have to assume that there must be an anti-caking ingredient in the Kent Marine dry Superbufffer-dkh that I use. It contains carbonate, bicarbonate, and borate salts. It is the same consistancy as baking soda and I would assume there there must be some kind of anti-caking ingredient in it also otherwise it would not have the powdery consistency that it is. I am assuming that is is very safe for a tank.
--Barbara
--Barbara
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
Prideprops:
There are literally hundreds of products sitting on LFS's shelves put out by numerous companies that are sold for the purpose of doing this or doing that to our aquariums. Simply because a product is put out by a major manufacturer does not insure that it is a safe product. Your tank has problem X so you go buy product A. As a result you end up with problem Y and run out and buy product B. As a result you end up with problem Z and have to run out and buy product C. It can become a viscious cycle of the dog chasing its tail. And the manufacturer is sitting back banking all your hard earned cash because you are now buying all his products.
Look at it another way. Low end skimmers versus high end skimmers. The companies that make the cheap crap that isn't good for anything except a door stop continue to make them because people are buying them and they make a buck from it. All ads for the cheap skimmers will say they work so are we supposed to "assume" that they do?
Jeff:
You are correct, the resident expert is a CEO of a major salt/aquarium products company and obiviously believes in his products as any good CEO should. That being said, we all end up having to trust someone during our learning curve in life or any new endeavor we embark upon. Some years ago this man put up the money to have an "independent" test done comparing his salt to other brand name salts. His company did not do the tests themselves, he merely coughed up the thousands of dollars that it took to have them done. People still called foul play and tried to denounce the tests as being biased. This man put up a challenge to the other major brands to cough up the money themselves to basically do the same comparison tests. To date - no one has.
Yes, he does supply supplements to those that need/want/require them but his basic philosphy is similar to yours in the KISS method. Consistant water changes with a quality balanced salt can rid the need of most if not all supplemental dosing.
Do I trust him? Yes, I do.
As I have requested your permission to copy your post I will also ask for permission to paste the post into the other forum before doing so. It may take a few days before I get it posted and responded to.
There are literally hundreds of products sitting on LFS's shelves put out by numerous companies that are sold for the purpose of doing this or doing that to our aquariums. Simply because a product is put out by a major manufacturer does not insure that it is a safe product. Your tank has problem X so you go buy product A. As a result you end up with problem Y and run out and buy product B. As a result you end up with problem Z and have to run out and buy product C. It can become a viscious cycle of the dog chasing its tail. And the manufacturer is sitting back banking all your hard earned cash because you are now buying all his products.
Look at it another way. Low end skimmers versus high end skimmers. The companies that make the cheap crap that isn't good for anything except a door stop continue to make them because people are buying them and they make a buck from it. All ads for the cheap skimmers will say they work so are we supposed to "assume" that they do?
Jeff:
You are correct, the resident expert is a CEO of a major salt/aquarium products company and obiviously believes in his products as any good CEO should. That being said, we all end up having to trust someone during our learning curve in life or any new endeavor we embark upon. Some years ago this man put up the money to have an "independent" test done comparing his salt to other brand name salts. His company did not do the tests themselves, he merely coughed up the thousands of dollars that it took to have them done. People still called foul play and tried to denounce the tests as being biased. This man put up a challenge to the other major brands to cough up the money themselves to basically do the same comparison tests. To date - no one has.
Yes, he does supply supplements to those that need/want/require them but his basic philosphy is similar to yours in the KISS method. Consistant water changes with a quality balanced salt can rid the need of most if not all supplemental dosing.
Do I trust him? Yes, I do.
As I have requested your permission to copy your post I will also ask for permission to paste the post into the other forum before doing so. It may take a few days before I get it posted and responded to.
Lifes A Beach
Premium Member
Coralfragger, what do you use to increase your Alk? I was giving my insight as to where you might or might not find anti-caking ingridients. Next time I have to dose, I am going to try the Arm & Hammer method and see what results I get.
I agree that there are alot of materials out there on the market that we can waste our money on because of false or inadequate claims. This particular forum is one where we might be able to use a simple product at an economical price without spending more simply because it has a fancy name or packaging. If there's a sucker out there that will buy it, there will be some greedy company that will sell it.
I agree that there are alot of materials out there on the market that we can waste our money on because of false or inadequate claims. This particular forum is one where we might be able to use a simple product at an economical price without spending more simply because it has a fancy name or packaging. If there's a sucker out there that will buy it, there will be some greedy company that will sell it.
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
Until recently I have not increased my Alk from what the salt I use comes in at. If NSW comes in at 7-8 dkh then I don't see the need to bump it up to 9-10 like a lot of folks do.
The salt I use comes in closer to 7 and I've had great results with it. Mainly I was doing softies but have now decided to give SPS a shot. My tank is in a transition phase because I've also decided to go Zeo on the tank. Going Zeo, a higher Alk is actually detrimental. You want a dkh of 7-8 so this salt should be perfect for a Zeo system.
I do want to run my Alk at 8 rather than 7 and so the product of choice to raise the Alk is "Bio-sea Buffer & dkh generator" and the use of a CA reactor to help maintain a balance.
The salt I use comes in closer to 7 and I've had great results with it. Mainly I was doing softies but have now decided to give SPS a shot. My tank is in a transition phase because I've also decided to go Zeo on the tank. Going Zeo, a higher Alk is actually detrimental. You want a dkh of 7-8 so this salt should be perfect for a Zeo system.
I do want to run my Alk at 8 rather than 7 and so the product of choice to raise the Alk is "Bio-sea Buffer & dkh generator" and the use of a CA reactor to help maintain a balance.
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