kh is always LOW!

[dieselgrk]

all my water perameters in my reef are great since i upgraded my 45g to a 75g 2 months ago. cal: 400-425, ph: 8.3, nit: o, mag: 1400.only thing is my kh is always low. usually around 7 or 8. i add reef builder by seachem every two days. the day after i add the builder, the water tests @ 9...the second day, back to 7/8.

im looking to upgrade to bigger tank again, but want to make sure i have the 75g dialed in before i move on to something bigger.

anyone have any suggestions on how i can keep my kh more stable?

 

[funman1]

Either go calcium reactor,
go dosing pumps,
or Dose DAILY.

Right now I'm cheap and DOSE DAILY to keep my kh up..

 

[Sk8r]

I dosed daily until I put the sump in the basement, then got a kalk reactor, which is a little cheaper than the calcium reactor. It helps a lot. You have to dose occasionally, but not daily. I have a 54g, sort of betweeen your two systems, with a 30g sump and about 20 feet of double pipe. I'm very happy with kalk, though if you have a very, very heavy demand, you could be better off with a calcium reactor.

SOunds as if your mg is ok, to have cal that high, but mind, it can fall pretty fast once it starts depleting. My lfs handed me a megabottle of mg and said I was going to need it once I dosed kalk---dead on. I've added more mg than I eve rhave used since I went on it.

 

[dots]

Whats is in the tank? Do you have a lot of alkalinity using livestock? (large LPS,Clams, SPS) If so, you have reached the effective limitation of dosing every other day and with this product. Though, depite your answer, I think this may be your situation anyway.

I suggest reading the article link below and begin to consider other methods as previously mentioned:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

As well, read the other articles related to this subject located here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

 

[Justin74]

You want to talk about low? Let's talk about the last time Funman1 was over at my house a couple of weeks ago testing my water:

dKh= 4.5
Ca = 280?
Mg=910
phosphate= undectable
nitrates=0-2

Me and Steve were just dumbfounded. Were looking at these numbers then looking at the tank with nice color and good polyp extension. But felt like we should be looking at an STN wasteland. Chemistry's wierd stuff man. Only sense I could make out of it as fragile as mine must have been it obviously was in perportion and balance. Pretty amazing stuff. Ive since been supplementing with ReefChem's Magnesium, and doubling my alk/Ca dosing, managed to get it up to 7 about 5 days ago, but I need to check again to see how it's holding up.

-Justin

 

[kevin95695]

My dKh was low too... I think I figured out that I od'd on calcium which drove the Kh down. Laid off the calcium pellets and been squirting a little buffer in every day to boost number.

Like Justin said: Chemistry is weird stuff man.

 

[dieselgrk]

thanks guys.....im going to start dosing daily as funman1 suggested and lay off the cal a little per kevin95695's suggestion. ill see where it gets me!. id like to purchase a twin dosing pump when i can gather enough $$$. does anyone have a prefrence between dosing pumps or a cal reactor?

 

[Nuuze]

I did the same thing Sk8r did with a kalk reactor. My pH and Alk always runs low. I know when I need to add more kalk to the reactor becuase my pH will linger around 8.0 during the day. My Alk stays around 8. I add 120ml of Alk in the morning and 120ml of calc at night of my two part in my 79G.

Lately though my Ph in the morning is at 7.8 and during the day its about 8.1-2. Is this too much of a swing?

 

[funman1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10223342#post10223342 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nuuze
Lately though my Ph in the morning is at 7.8 and during the day its about 8.1-2. Is this too much of a swing?

I'd say that's pretty normal.

 

[dots]

Read those article in the links posted above guys, all of your problems are a little different, but are easy to fix.

Justin is just lazy, so he needs to go to this link:

http://www.aimseminars.com/

........just kidding buddy!!!!:lmao:

As far as a two part doser versus reactor. Opinions vary, I chose the 2 part for simplicity of the system. When I was reasearching and was getting ready to do the same a bunch of people were having problems with reactors and tuning them and having depressed Ph constantly and I got the impression they were more finicky. I didn't want to mess with a CO2 bottle and what not. However, they are a proven method.

Reasearch both methods and price out the equipment and the consumables of each one and go from there.

I have this doser and like it, I wish it had two independant drives, but that is only needed if an out of balance occurs and that can be fixed with WCs.

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium...aquatics_sentry_admiral_commander.asp?CartId=

and like this one: (2,3,4 pump version)

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium..._3000_sp3000_niveaumat_reef_doser.asp?CartId=

a lot of people like this one:

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_dosing_pumps_top_off_spectrapure_litermeter.asp?CartId=

 

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10229653#post10229653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Read those article in the links posted above guys, all of your problems are a little different, but are easy to fix.

Justin is just lazy, so he needs to go to this link:

http://www.aimseminars.com/

........just kidding buddy!!!!:lmao:

LMAO

Nice! Like Metallica says..."Sad, but true!!", in my case, sooo true!

Nuuze: It sounds as though you could be inclined to get much better results with the same regiment but reverse the times your sollutions being dosed. Since kalk pumps up the pH dose it at night when the tanks at it's lowest. Calc when being utilized drives the alk down in turn the pH so the best time to dose this would be during the day when tanks pH will be at it's highest.
I do this at night to also compensate for the typical .2 drop since I dont have a refugium.

Now if Steve would just come through to check my Mg. ....


-Justin

 

[Nuuze]

Thanks, I'll try my dosing reverse order.

 

[Justin74]

Cool, ya, just try it for a couple days. Id think if anything, worse case scenario it'll be just the same. But the nature of the chemicals should prove otherwise..Keep us posted!

-Justin

 

[Nuuze]

Went back to Alk in the morning and Calcium in the evenings. Reason is because in the evening my pH is already at 8.1-2 and when I add the Alk it shoots up too high. In the morning is when it's low around 7.8'ish, adding Calcium doesn't help raise it so it slowly creeps up during the course of the day.

So adding Alk in the morning when it's low helps boost to 8'ish levels before the lights come on and evenings for Calcium doesn't seem to affect much...

 

[dots]

Since there has been an adversion to the "wierd stuff" of chemistry, I would like to share my way of understanding it for you that may help.


Alkalinity is like a shock absorber on the spring of a car.

Ph is the Spring

Continuing with my automobile analogy, the alkalinity controls Ph just a shock absorber controls a springs motion.

If the Alkalinity is too low, the Ph is free to move "Willy-Nilly" as new acids are intoduced, and as you notice with respiration, goes up and down with CO2 production. Just like when the shocks are out in your car.

If the Alkalinity is high, the Ph is effectively "locked" or "set" at that value. Most of the time this is what we want, however if your Ph is too acidic or basic it will be "locked" or "set" at that wrong level. Too correct that wrong Ph level, your Alkalinity or "buffer" must be lowered.

I like this analogy the best because the motion of a spring is variable and changing just like our values.

Or you can think of the Alk or buffer as Pawns in Chess that is they act as a sacraficial lamb to bond with the acids that contribute to Ph. By bonding and therefor "nuetralizing" they are no longer free radicals in which contributes to the measure concentration called Ph.

There is probably a Space Invaders or Star Wars shield strength analogy as well, but I am sure I have already shown how much a nerd I am and need not embarass myself any further........

Hope it helps........

 

[dieselgrk]

if kh is a pon in the game of chess, whats the ph?

 

[dots]

As far a calcium, its moving.....you just cant see it with the resolution of tests we have.

I am afraid you are going to encounter an out of balance situation

Try this for a couple of weeks:

1. Using Salifert tests

2. Select an Alk and a Ca level that you want (9.6dkh and around 450ppm to start with, concervative numbers that are near stoich. balance. We are concerned about holding the Alk and Ca to these target numbers)

3. Test you Alk daily at the same time, (I do mine when I get home 10-15min after I top off)

4. Add per what you find for your daily alk uptake to get you back to your numbers. Add both alk and Ca in stoich. balanced mixtures so as to replenish both. (This is why two part is so cool, they are 1:1 already)

5. Test you Ca weekly, you can see the changes in the Ca then.

6. Fix out of balances or overdoses by adjusting the ratio of the two products or a "do-over" with WCs.

Try that for a while and I bet it will be easier to control and not so mysterious. But we need to start somewhere and being methodical and seeing the cause and effect of what you are doing is the easiest way to show this to you.

Worked for me......

 

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10262551#post10262551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dieselgrk
if kh is a pon in the game of chess, whats the ph?

Pawns themselves which are the remainder of the other enemy I guess.......I don't play chess........

If your being literal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

 

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10261279#post10261279 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nuuze
Went back to Alk in the morning and Calcium in the evenings. Reason is because in the evening my pH is already at 8.1-2 and when I add the Alk it shoots up too high. In the morning is when it's low around 7.8'ish, adding Calcium doesn't help raise it so it slowly creeps up during the course of the day.

So adding Alk in the morning when it's low helps boost to 8'ish levels before the lights come on and evenings for Calcium doesn't seem to affect much...

I think the problem again is your timing. You should be trying to add your alkalinity when it's on it's down swing, and certainly not all at once. Like I said, in the evening, before and right after lights go out pH will be at it's highest(therefore do not add alkalinity!). 3-4 hours later it will drive in a downward spiral, ultimately giving you 7.8-7.9 in the morning like you see. If you waited a few hours after lights go out, to slow dose your alkalinity you would be waking up in the morning to a pH of 8.0-8.1 with an upswing by the end of the day at 8.3-8.4. This is what you want. Calcium added in the afternoon to evening would also help drive down the alk and pH.

When you say it makes your alk to high when you added it what did it read? If your pH is moving that fast up and down, you may be adding to much or your system is not alkaline enough to cush your pH swings like dots was explaining, or was that the the force of the jedi?


-Justin

 

[Nuuze]

I don't have a doser so I add all at once in the sump. I been changing between 90-120ml daily but equal of the two parts. Strange thing is since I went to 90ml the last couple days pH was 7.97 this morning. When I dumo the 90ml in the sump pH reads 8.6 on the probe that is in the sump, not tank, then it slowly goes down as it mixes. Another thing I did since the hot weather is run a fan in the room for circulation, that may of did something.