KNO3 dosing Q (primarily)

[graveyardworm]

This thread is going great, I think I may start dosing as well. The reason for coraline take off may also be lowering of PO4. Has the macro growth along with dosing helped to outcompete the nuisance algae? I have terrible bubble algae and was hoping to use macro along with manual removal to get rid of it once and for all. Any thoughts?

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Well... I specifically left that part out because the outcome is questionable. My Micro's are still growing, but I'm not sure they are as much as they were. Likewise, some of my Cyano has died back and another section has completely flaked off the rock. HOWEVER, I have moved the lighting around a little bit and have a new micro growing directly under the lights in the main display. Luckily the Hermits like it and are eating good. Once the roads are passible again and I have time I'll buy some more hermits, return my Royal urchin (refuses to stop wearing my Macro's as a hat), buy a handful more snails, and a better source of iron. I also have a water change on the list which I just haven't gotten to..

So... Yes, it 'appears' that it's helping, BUT the outcome in regards to the micro's is slow and inconclusive as of yet.

Best of luck,
John.

 

[Samala]

Very cool! I'm also interested to see if your PO4 has been dropping along with the nitrate as the plants grow. Happens in my tank at least!

>Sarah

 

[The_Nexis_One]

I'll run some water to the LFS for testing - I don't have a PO4 kit...

Yes, very cool to see the macro's growing..

Thanks again,
John.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

UPDATE 2/25/06:

I added some Feather Caulerpa a few days ago and it seems to be well enjoyed by the hermits! :-( I'm not sure they are eating it as much as they are stripping the feathers of the fronds off the stalk (if we can call it that). Ditto for the Royal Urchin - he made a "B" line for the fresh planting and pulled about a third of it up while I wasn't looking to make his latest 'hat' ... he's still wearing it days later (little brat...)...

Tonight, I noticed lots of new running growth and some of the leaves/fronds are getting longer on my original planting of Caulerpa. Still not sure what exact type it is, but it seems to be happy. Many of the pieces of Caulerpa that I had attempted to grow before are growing like crazy from crevaces in the LR and from being buried in the sand. Micro growth in the Lagoon is almost stopped! This in itself was amazing. I used to have to run the lights for a few days, then turn them off for a few, then repeat - just to keep the macro's from getting overrun by Micro algaes. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE!. I've actually lowered the lights and moved some things around to give stronger light to the caulerpa.

Tonight I also tested my Nitrates (NO3) and to my suprise.... they were absolute zero!, Nadda, Zippo!, None!, Very much so absent!. I was shocked... I even added another 1" of dead sand to the tank (this sand 'was' live and it unwashed) so it contains a lot of biomatter which I've been concious of when adding. I only add a little and space it out a few weeks inbetween additions to keep the Nitrogen cycle from going nuts... I can't believe this is going so well!. Who would have thought that adding a little iron would turn so much around in so little time... (other than 3D-reef/Clay )

I'm going to dose a tiny amound of the KNO3 I have rather than adding more sand. I'll wait until after I work through the KNO3 dose/measurements before I add more sand as it might throw off my experiment .

Super excited!

Thanks again,
John.

 

[graveyardworm]

Awesome, I just started dosing iron myself. Seachem iron test before dosing was zero, I added 8 drops Kents iron and havent tested again yet. Also checked NO3 prior to dosing and Salifert kit indicated 2.5. Very encouraging hopefully bubble algae doesnt like FE as much as macro.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... is this stuff really KNO3 ? I dosed 2ml of my weak solution (per master Sarah's recipe), waited 1.5 hours and tested my Nitrate - zippo.... I added another 3ml (because .5 tsp as she recommended is 2.5ml and I shorted the first dose), waited 1.5 hours and tested again - Nadda!... no Nitrates detectible...

Does this sound right? I'd really hate to be dosing more and more and more only to find out this is something other than KNO3... LOL!

(I'm 99.9% sure it's KNO3 - but... there's still that 0.1% )

any idea how much I'll need to add to see a detectible amount? Is it something where I need to wait a day to test it = maybe it's the wrong form of nitrate for the test kit or maybe it's not disassociated or something... I dunno.. it's been many years since I played with Chemistry stuff...

Thoughts?

TIA,
John.

 

[Samala]

In retrospect John, I think my version of a weak solution to try was much much too weak. Sorry about that, I was tossing out ideas, didnt realize you were going to use that recipe precisely.

A tsp of KNO3 is probably about 5-6 grams in weight. Do you have a reliable way to weight out the powder in grams? Maybe a kitchen scale? It might be okay to use an estimate of 5.5g but it may be a bit off. This is where I once again curse the non-metric nature of our weights/measures.

Now.. 5.5g is not much nitrate, I did indeed give you a very very weak solution to work with. KNO3 is about 61% nitrate by weight, so 3.4g of nitrate went into your 2cups/500ml of water. You are dosing 2.5ml of that solution, so effectively giving the tank 0.017g of NO3, or 17 mg.

The effective size of the system (pred fuge + fuge + display) is somewhere around 90gallons, right? Lets conservatively estimate that you lose about 25% of that volume to displacement and say you have, oh, 67gallons to work with. Adding 17mg of nitrate to 67gallons would raise all those gallons by a paltry 0.067 ppm. No wonder you cant see a rise in the levels on the test kit!!

You'll have to add, oh, 37.5 ml (7.5 tsps) to get to 1ppm raise using the original solution recipe I gave.

I was so preoccupied with not suggesting a mix that would poison your system I totally lost sight of how large the overall system really is. Sheesh, dont listen to me anymore, lol.

Instead, here's a new idea: lets try 4.5 tsps of KNO3 powder in 2 cups and dose 5ml (1 tsp) of that solution. I'm hoping that should bring the tank up by 1ppm or so. Feel free to dose again each day until you have something readable on the test kit, but go slowly of course. The idea is still to not have such a concentrated solution that you will OD the tank easily.

Now.. if you think your system holds less water than 67gallons or so, or if you find that a tsp (or your tsps for that matter) weight more than say 5.5g or so on average, please do let me know. Changes to both of these vary the outcome.

As a side note, I was clicking through freshwater planted links I had from the old days and ran across Chuck Gadd's calculator here. Keep in mind that his calculator assumes you will dose just 1ml of the stock solution when it calculates the ppm raise. Still an excellent resource. I was building one and now I dont know if I have too.

Let me know if this makes sense or not!
>Sarah

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Many thanks Sarah,


No worries on the miscalc before. I was just concerned that something might be wrong on my side.

Ok So.. check my math:

40 Gallon breeder with WAY too much rock = ~30 Gallons

Sump usually runs at about: ~4 gallons

40 Gallon Lagoon tank, sectioned as below:
-Lagoon section: 42x12x12 w/ 4.5" sand and a spattering of LR (lite reef structure). So... I'll guess around 25 gal?
-Refug/overflow: 9"x4.75"x12" w/ large rubble so... I'll guess 2 gal

So, figure another 2 gallons for skimmer and tubes, etc

So... 30gal + 4gal, + 25gal + 2 + 2 = 63 gal actually (...actually guessed that is... )

Instead, here's a new idea: lets try 4.5 tsps of KNO3 powder in 2 cups and dose 5ml (1 tsp) of that solution. I'm hoping that should bring the tank up by 1ppm or so. Feel free to dose again each day until you have something readable on the test kit, but go slowly of course. The idea is still to not have such a concentrated solution that you will OD the tank easily.

Now, what I'm confused about is when I run that calculator I'm not getting matching info:

so I ran it as follows - settings:

10 tsp or 56grams KNO3 solute
500 ml of RO/DI solvent
63 Gal system
yeilds a 1ml dose that alters the system by ~.3ppm

This would mean dosing 3ml a day for 1ppm replacement.

Math isn't one of my strong points so feel free to point and laugh...

Thanks,
John.

 

[Samala]

No that's totally fine to do it the way you posted, a nice even 10 tsps in 500ml and then dose about 3ml from that solution. Calculators are fun, eh? Its easiest to decide how much you want to dose (I like to do 1ml) and work from there. But 3 or 5 or 10ml, whichever you're comfortable with is ok.

If you were to use the 4.5 tsps KNO3 in 500ml solution I gave earlier you'd need to dose about 7 tsps of the solution, which would be a pain I'd think.

>Sarah

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Thanks Sarah!

Off to mix up a batch I go

John.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... I mixed up a batch as described above (10tsp/500ml).

It got crazy cold while mixing it and turned yellow...

My question is: is there 'supposed' to be any precipitate from this solution? In both this batch and the super-weak batch previously, there was a mulm like sediment. I'm not sure if this is impurities in the mix or if it's supposed to do this at 'near saturation' levels (it was hard to disolve the 10tsp all the way - had to shake it vigerously). I did use RO/DI to mix.

Anyone have any experiance with mixing KNO3 or especially Stump remover

John.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Well, I had tested for nitrates within 24 hours and had added nothing else, so I skipped the initial Nitrate test. I dosed 3ml of the new solution (10tsp/500ml) and tested... nothing (but that's expected). I dosed another 3ml about 1.5 hours later and waited an hour, tested.. nothing... (still should be around 2ppm and test kit doesn't change color until you hit 5ppm)...

Going to dose again this morning and continue until I hit 5ppm. Hopefully once I get there, I'll be able to maintain 5ppm with just the daily 3ml dose..... after I get it stabilized, I'll start looking at how I can cheaply automate this process.

I know that slow changes to the system are best - but is there any issue with raising the NO3 quickly.... like 5ppm in a day?

Thanks,
John.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... well - I did it

I got to dosing another 3ml and thought.... "ah screw it, lets just see" ... so I added 9ml of KNO3 solution (which should put me at 5ppm in the system). I watched everything for a reaction and I didn't see anything abnormal... I did however, notice 5 new .5" fronds from my feather caulerpa and a new runner of ~1" since I planted them Thursday of last week (~3.5 days ago) Even the section the Urchin ran off with is sending out new fronds and what might be a runner.

I waited about an hour and tested the system for Nitrates.

The reading shows between 5ppm and 10ppm (hard to tell sometimes with these Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kits). So... all appears well and it seems that the calculator and Sarah were right.

Many thanks,

I'll test each day (if not twice a day) to see how the uptake is...

Thanks again,
John.

 

[Samala]

Interesting observation of a precipitate, endothermic reaction and turning yellow. Hmm. I routinely mix up concentrations much above what your solution is and do not encounter this, but thats with laboratory grade potassium nitrate. I think the mulm is a bit of impurities in the mix, as might be this tendency towards yellow. I'll check 'round. Anyone else have thoughts on that?

>Sarah

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Not sure about the yellow, but it is probably due to the precipitate/impurities.

I've read that the endothermic reaction is normal and part of the KNO3 disolution... dunno. Maybe it's something to do with the exact stuff used in the stump remover... but most of that info was from people dosing to freshwater systems.

Thanks for the reply.

John.

 

[Samala]

It is normal, you're right. I've just never stuck a bare hand on a beaker with solution mixing before to know it. Yellow color could very well be from the ppt going on.

Oh.. I think you stress out animals/corals by dosing 5ppm in one shot, I try to space it out over the course of a day.. adding a ml here, or a ml there, usually at the time I feed my jawfish. (He's spoiled and fat so that's about three times a day.) I could be wrong of course. For an inexpensive dosing system I was thinking a drip setup like some people use for kalk would be ideal, dont you? I think they use IV drip systems of some sort, though I've never researched it enough myself. Something that is on the list of things to do, but has never gotten done, lol.

>Sarah

 

[graveyardworm]

As you know I just started my refuge with macro and will someday get seagrass in my lagoon tank. I've started dosing Kents iron directly to the refuge. Right now my NO3 is at 2.5ppm Salifert kit. There is a mixed reef connected to these tanks as well. My anemone/clown tank, and refuge both drain into the seagrass/lagoon which is creating a microbubble problem. So I have a couple questions.

1) How do you feel adding the described mix above and maintaining 5ppm NO3 might affect my mixed reef?

and a little off topic

2) I'm considering designing a tank which the refuge and clown/anem will drain into prior to draining into lagoon. This tank will have baffles and bioballs to eliminate microbubbles. I think this will also help to raise nitrates going into lagoon.

Right now my small piece of C. Peltata is losing some color and I'm afraid it may go sexual. It's small so I'm not to worried about negative effects to the other tanks, but I want to get it straightened out before adding more macro or seagrass.

 

[graveyardworm]

Also I just bought some stump remover at Lowe's. There was no breakdown of trace stuff on the bottle so I had an employee pull the MSDS sheets to see what they said, they indicated the product was 100% potassium nitrate. The product is called Green Light stump remover, and was available in both powder and liquid forms. I bought the powder.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6840389#post6840389 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Also I just bought some stump remover at Lowe's. There was no breakdown of trace stuff on the bottle so I had an employee pull the MSDS sheets to see what they said, they indicated the product was 100% potassium nitrate. The product is called Green Light stump remover, and was available in both powder and liquid forms. I bought the powder.

That powder is exactly what I have... I too read it was 100% from some other web sites. HOWEVER, mine has visible impurities in it.. Black fleck and some chunks of yellow among the yellow crystals (might be clumps of KNO3 for that matter). When I disolve my solution I end up with three notible things (disolution is accelorated by shaking in a sealed container - 1000ml soda bottle):

1) Very cold yellow colored solution with froth on top. (clears more with settling time and the froth disappears as well.)
2) a yellow mulm which settles to the bottom (very fluffy precipitate almost like yellow snow (please no comments about yellow snow ;P ).)
3) small specks of visible impurities which settle to the bottom: black usually.

I am currently treating this solution as I did Kalk. I draw my dosings from mid-column to avoid any impurities from the top/bottom of the solution. This stuff is cheap enough that I'm not concerned about loosing the top and bottom of the solution. When I get close to running out - I'll order some lab grade as replacement.

I didn't run into any visible stress from dosing up to 5ppm. Although I'll not do it again That being said - I did dose an estimated 2ppm before adding the 3ppm dose about 1.5 hours later...

lessons learned.

As for the 'what drains where' question.... I'm sure baffles alone would help w/ the microbubbles, but I'm sure BioBalls wouldn't hurt you NO3 Likewise, a foam block between just 2 baffles woudl help w/ both the bubbles and NO3. Drawing from articles, faqs, and conversations with both Bob Fenner and A. Calfo, It might be that you are trying to pump too much water through your sump. According to Calfo, most of use are pumping a tremendous amount through our sump in search of propper flow in the display. If memory serves, he was recommending locallized flow in the display with clean surface skimming and slow flow in the sump so that the skimmer was able to pull out the settled protiens(reverse settling in this case since protiens float). Congruently, this would allow for micro bubbles to rise and escape the return. I ran into the microbubble issue on my 157g as well. I solved them by using a 90* elbow on the return intake (also helps make sure you don't run the pumped dry) and by slowing down my flow through the sump. I supplimented with Maxijet 1200's - but I had 50/50 LPS and SPS at the time so crazy fast flow in the display wasn't what I was looking for. If you need high flow, a HOB or drilled closed loop is the way to go IMHO...

Oh, and in regards to the 5ppm NO3 in a mixed reef... I think your softies and LPS will thank you. I'm pretty sure that way back when I had the 125g and a nitrate problem I read that 'some' nitrates are fine and used by both softies and LPS, but excess NO3 can cause not only algae problems but also growth retardation as PO4 does... I'm sure 5ppm would be just fine. I know I ran my mixed reef for many many months with NO3 in excess of 20ppm without much ill effect. I say 'much' becuase coral growth wasn't maximized and micro algae was higher than I wanted.

Thanks again.
John.