KNO3 dosing Q (primarily)

[graveyardworm]

Okay I started dosing today, but I have no idea what I'm doing, and I cant quite follow Sarahs math. Here's what I did - 500ml RO/DI, 10 tsp stump remover. I didnt get the yellow color you describe John, it did get cold though. I also havent noticed the black specs so much, just a couple. This going into 300g (estimated after sand and LR) right now NO3 is at 2.5ppm, I guess I want to shoot for 5 ppm. So far I've added 1 Tbls, and havent retested NO3, in such a large volume of water I wouldnt expect to see nuch change, but I'm not sure how concentrated the mix is. I'll try to figure it out on my own, but feel free to reply if you have the answer.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Well.. by my data entry (using the calc Sarah pointed us to) that shows to raise your system NO3 by 0.06ppm per 1ml dosed.

So... to bring the system up to 5ppm, you need to dose just over 41.5 ml's...!

1ppm addition would equal a 16.5ml dose to the system.


IMHO, I would remix your solution so that you could easily dose the amount you needed each day. I'd calc up an amount that would give me ~.33ppm in my system per dose (in my case 1ml)... In my case, if I need to dose 1ppm, I add 3ml of solution.

According to the calculator, for your system, this would be 55 teaspoons disolved in 500ml RO/DI ... I'm not sure that is even possible.

So... I think you'll have to make your 'daily dose' something larger than a basic multiple of 1ml. Like, maybe dosing a higher base quantity will work better.

If we run the calculator again with 17 teaspoons of solute (KNO3) in 500ml of solvent, it shows that we would get a .1ppm increase of NO3 in the system. So... if we dose 10ml to the system (syringes this size are common if you know a nurse or have a med supply store around), it would increase the system NO3 by 1ppm.

blah blah blah... carry the 2, etc and ....

So.... if it were me, I'd add 7tsp to the current solution and redisolve, this should be the equive of a 17tsp/500ml solution.

This new (stronger) solution could be dosed as needed in multiples of 10ml ....

For example: if you need to raise your NO3 ppm by 2.5ppm (to hit 5ppm), you could dose 25ml over the course of a day to achieve this. Likewise, if you needed to add a daily or 'couple times a week' dose to maintain 5ppm, you could just add the 10ml and your tank NO3 fluctuation would be ~1ppm between doses.

Like I said above, I'm doing this - but the hard way by dosing in multiples of 3... (why.... I dunno ) ... I'll probably remix my solution too in the near future.

Now.... PLEASE check my math and logic before moving forward.

<looks around for Sarah as backup>
John.

 

[graveyardworm]

:crazy1: Are you sure math isnt one of your strong points. I remember sarah mentioning something about a calculator, but couldnt find the link. Now I found it. I'm still a little nervous about adding this stuff, and how it might affect micro algae. I'm think I'm gonna start by adding what I've already mixed in 10 ml doses it'll be a little weak, but hopefully I'll be able to see the bad things if any happening slowly. Now to convert tbls to ml. My syringe is maked in tbls.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6891026#post6891026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
:crazy1: Are you sure math isnt one of your strong points.

Nah, the further along I got, the worse my grades got... by the time I got through Calculus 4 and was supposed to take Differential eq's... I waved the white flag (or flew the bird... can't remember exactly)... Still, not bad for someone who can barely do algebra, and doesn't spell well (it's sort of an ironic insult to the US education system IMO).

I'm still a little nervous about adding this stuff, and how it might affect micro algae. I'm think I'm gonna start by adding what I've already mixed in 10 ml doses it'll be a little weak, but hopefully I'll be able to see the bad things if any happening slowly.

Very understandible. I also started out slow, partially with the intention of 'checking for problems' and partially because I had a weak solution as well. I've only noticed a slow decrease in my micro's. They certainly haven't grown faster, etc. About a week and a half ago, I added some more critters (hermits/snails/queen conch) and they have been 'going to town' on the micro's in the display. about 1/3 of the rock is cleared from micro growth, but the cyano still returns to these locations a few days after they are cleared. The Queen conch is doing a great job of eating the Cyano, but there's only so much one conch can do... Definetly on my way out of the proverbial woods on this one

Now to convert tbls to ml. My syringe is maked in tbls.

.........google.com

search for "1 tbsp to ml" or "10ml to tbsp" .... gotta love the Google Calculator (and yeah.... I didn't know how to abrev tablespoons either - thank God it's got a spelling corrector too )

John.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

UPDATE 03/05/06:

I can say I found my first problem/reaction(-) in the tank.

I have a large, encrusting yellow sponge that showed up as a hitchhiker on my initial LR many years ago. It's always grown slow, under the aquascape and has survived being exposed to air many times - even left out in the air for hours at a time...

I can only assume that since it was growing GREAT for the duration after this tank was setup (completely filled the 1" gap between two rocks for a distance of ~6"x3") up until I started dosing Iron and Nitrate. I must not have minded the Nitrates since the system tested at 20+ppm NO3 before I started dosing Iron... I can only assume it must be having a problem with my Iron dosing. There isn't enough macro algae to assume it's a chemical warfare type reaction (if that even applies).

Having been gone all weekend, I didn't dose iron and this morning the sponge looks better than it did when I left. It had shiveled badly actually 'loosing' it's water export pores and it's color had changed from yellow to gray in some locations... they appear to be back this morning. I also found that the macro's have added nearly 10" of collective linear growth (all individual leaves/runners measured growth combined) as of this morning with ~8 new fronds on just the feather caulerpa.... Likewise, the micro growth on the Macro's is coming back! Many of the original fronds are covered in a thin red/brown slimy/hairy coating... so I only assume that the Iron content of the water has decreased (NO3 still tested near 5ppm late last night). I dosed Iron this morning and we'll see if there is any reaction.

John.

 

[graveyardworm]

Right now I have tons of sponge growth, and havent noticed any ill effects from the iron dosing. Do you have a test kit for iron? I've been monitoring mine, so far it hasnt even registered on the kit yet, and I havent gotten up to a full dose yet.

Is the macro in a fuge or sump compertment? I've also been adding a capful of DT's straight to my fuge every morning, and the pod population just exploded. Along with my seagrass the store threw in some brown gracillaria which was covered in some sort of micro, I almost tossed it but put it in anyway, the pods ( not quite sure on species ) are covering it and cleaned off all the offending micro growth.

For the heck of it I pulled 2 tbsp into the syringe and squirted it into a test kit beaker, and its just a little under 10 ml.

The only nuisance algae I've had for a long time is bubble algae so it wont be hard to tell if micro starts showing up with NO3 dosing.

 

[Samala]

Good work on the calculations guys! I am not so happy to hear about the interactions with your yellow sponge. Do keep an eye on it and continue to appraise whether or not it is nitrate or iron dosing related, or possibly something else. I still have a hard time imagining macro-chemical warfare, but will admit its a potential issue.

David, like John advised, go slowly with the nitrate. You two are the first real guinea pigs of attempting a fertilized tank with other invert inhabitants sharing quarters and water with the plants afterall. Your observations are really valuable.

The cyano's return in a little perplexing, but lets see how it goes.

>Sarah

 

[graveyardworm]

Welcome back Sarah, hopefully you're feeling better. So far my NO3 dosing is on the low side, I've only been doing it for a couple days, no adverse affects yet, but no detectable rise in system NO3 either. My Gracillaria sp. is really taking off, it could be the iron dosing attributing to that though, also I've noticed better polyp extension with an acro frag that I've had for about a year.

Curious if you've known anyone to dose NO3 straight into the substrate for seagrass?

 

[Samala]

Curious if you've known anyone to dose NO3 straight into the substrate for seagrass?

Heehee.. The seagrass biologists have used, in the past, a closed system of simply Halophila in an agar medium with various nutrients added into the gel with a seawater overlay in a small container of, say, 1L. Plants were then germinated on the gel and used the nutrients from the substrate, the water is unfertilized. They use the same general system for germinating lots of terrestrial plants in biotech companies.

So, no, I dont know if anyone has tried injecting the NO3 into the substrate's pore water (the space between sand grains) but it is certainly an awesome idea.

>Sarah

 

[3D-Reef]

I had a small section of alge go sexual and was going to start dosing kno3 again,but the LFS wanted some.So instead I took a section of grape(5'x8") in to them.
The only bad effect that I can tell is My Dendronephthya gets real dark,and shrinks when I dose kno3.Well, the carnation may not like it,but them clams sure do.
Samala,
A question if you please.
If the no3 & po4 are at many times that of NSWL and these plants are use to growing in NSW.In other words,the plants grow with such limited resources.My question is could the "K" in Kno3 be the limiting factor? And just soaks up the no3 because there is "k" available?
Clay

 

[Samala]

Clay - this is very true, they do grow with typically limited resources, and in cases in coastal waters where the water is effectively fertilized, eutrophication events persist that usually mean big algae blooms.. as opposed to accelerated seagrass growth. The idea is that seagrass beds in the wild have access to huge turnover of water that is constantly bringing very low levels of nutrients to them. Its still low NSWL but with the immense amount of water coming to them, what they are capable of using adds up quickly.

Having a constant low level amount of N and P is a good thing for a seagrass tank I feel. You dont have to dose up to a big number like 5 or 1ppm, in fact once you have a good sense of dosing and how much your plants use each day, you can do very small daily doses to decrease the risk of irritating other valuable inverts.

The other point, NSW is only rarely enriched for P in the wild, from the data I can find. Our tanks tend to be very different environments and are often very rich in P. Too much P usually sparks microalgae even in seagrass tanks.. if we add the N so the plants can use the P, this is no longer such a big problem.

All that said, if you have good management of nutrients from the usual perspective (water changes, good filters and LR/sand) you dont have to dose nitrate. It is entirely possible to keep seagrass without fertilizing the tank. I see evidence of this in several people's tanks, and even in public aquaria that have attempted live seagrass (Monterey Bay). Fertilizing the tank simply helps me get around the P issue, and accelerates growth which helps me meet my goal.

I have also found that some species of seagrasses, particularly stargrass, do very poorly without good access to N in the tank environment.

Anywho... I am missing part of your point! It isn't very likely that K is the limiting factor and nitrate is being used on a lark. We know from land plants that potassium, while still being necessary, doesnt tend to be too terribly important. Freshwater aquatic plant tanks meet their K needs typically through dosing KNO3, and its still fairly behind carbon, N and P. Unless seagrasses greatly depart from their closest relatives (evolutionarily) it isnt very likely they need huge amounts of it for their growth.

Also.. seawater has pretty good amounts of K to begin with, along with Ca and Na and other salts. So.. I wont say its impossible, just not the explanation I would prefer to use. It would be very interesting to see, if in side by side tanks, one enriched with say NaNO3 did better/worse than one enriched with KNO3. Perhaps that might help to infer a relationship to the potassium being provided.

>Sarah

 

[3D-Reef]

Thank you

 

[The_Nexis_One]

I finally got around to taking some pictures - now I'm getting around to posting them up... (sorry for the delay)

This is the KNO3 solution I commented on being yellow. I made the batch and drained off the clear solution, leaving the sediment as waste.

John.

 

[DaMan]

Just in case you are unaware, Gregwatson.com has a CaNO3 for those that are dosing both. He also has a cheap Fe+ source.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

Thanks - I'll check it out.

John.

 

[graveyardworm]

Just wanna keep this alive and report a few things. I've been maintaining 4 - 5ppm nitrate with the KNO3 additions. So far it hasnt taken more than a couple tablespoons a week to keep it there, but I also feed fairly heavily ( suncoral, fish and anemone ). I've also been dosing iron 6ml daily, and this past weekend I started dosing iodine, alk, Mg.

The kno3 dosing so far doesnt seem to affected anything, I have a few stony corals which havent lost any color, if anything their color is better. The LTA anemone is a recent purchase it was alittle bleached when I got it but so far its color has improved tremendously, and it's finally eating. There are a few spots of cyano in the lagoon tank which come and go, I attribute these more to feeding than the nitrate addition. Otherwise nuisance micro algae is minimal.

My new mangrove has had great root growth so far, but no new leaf growth. One of my Thalassia is doing very well the other lost its blades shortly after transplant and so far nothing. The rest of the macros and grasses appear to be doing well and growing, except for one brown species of gracillaria which some of it seems to be putting up a good fight and growing while other parts continue to deteriorate.

I've been seriously considering nitrate dosing directly into the substrate around the Thalassia just to see what happens. Anyone with suggestions or opinions regarding this?

 

[Limbo]

I've just received my KNO3 from an ebay sale. $10 for 1lb including shipping. It is marked as 99-100% and consists of pure white crystals.

On the can it lists solubility as 36gm/100ml water. I thought this might be useful info for anyone wanting to do a strong solution.

I'm nervous about dosing..... who isn't? Plan to start slow and find that sweet spot with regular testing.

My plan was to use a small water bottle and a syringe. Anyone got a good idea to get the solution out of the bottle once the level drops below the depth the syringe can get to? I only want to get the syringe close to the tank to stop the "oh c*** I've dropped the bottle in" scenario.

 

[graveyardworm]

Can you put a short piece of airline tube on the end of the syringe?

 

[Limbo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8452973#post8452973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Can you put a short piece of airline tube on the end of the syringe?

That's genius!!! 3ml of air in the syringe = 3ml of solution in the tube.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8452973#post8452973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Can you put a short piece of airline tube on the end of the syringe?

That's exactly what I've been doing. There is a minute difference since air compresses/decompresses and water does not, but at the tiny head pressures we are talking about for a 10" section of air line tubing - it's almost not worth mentioning. At this point, Mar 06, I was still putting the tube on the syringe for each use...

I'm still dosing KNO3, and trying to do monthly water changes. I keep running into NO3 limitations as testing for it in the water is skewed by something.

I'm currently having to dose (as in if I miss 1.5 days, Macro's sporolate) 12ml twice a day of the solution discussed earlier.

It's a lot - and a lot more than I would like... but it's what I've worked up to by loosing specimens...

John.