LaCl Reactor

[Dustin1300]

Subscribed.

OP, do you happen to have pictures of the setup instead of just the drawing? I've been using LaCl successfully for about 6 months and have toyed with the idea of running reactors in the same manner as you did.

insomniac, I'd test with the other Hanna Checker. The phosphorous one is MUCH more accurate IME. I got rid of the ppm one as it was not consistent.

 

[insomniac2k2]

I've had my eye on the other meter for a while, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I will definitely pick one up some day.

I'll take a few shots when i get home, but here is a few that I took last week:

Pay no attention to the DIY kalk stirrer on the far left. The dosing pump on the upper right feeds into the T.

Bottom chamber just has a simple hose to bring the effluent closer to the bottom for mixing.

The gallon vinegar tub is being reused as my RODI/LaCl resevoir.

 

[dirtyBit]

I think I may want to try this. I was going to just use one of my reactors (GFO) but I may try two the way you have it setup.

I do have a question about your T. What size did you use? Is it one of the ones on BRS?

I was thinking maybe just using a really long piece of tube after the T and coiling it around to increase contact time with the water before it gets dumped in the filter reactor.

 

[insomniac2k2]

I'm using the standard push connect T (as in the BRS reactors). I had to "creatively" reduce it down with a piece of tubing that was the same ID as the standard dosing line's OD. I have yet to find a T that has 2 inlets that are 1/2" and the 3rd inlet 1/4".

I would imagine that the more contact time that you can create, the better the solution that you will end up with. That said. I'm not sure that it would be worth it. The Lanthanum Chloride will likely travel right along with the contact area that it was first introduced, thus not likely exposing it to much more contact area. Just my 2c.

Personally, I think that the only way you will end up with better contact time would be to integrate agitation into the reaction chamber. I think that the quickest and easiest method of this would be to hobble together a spray bar or deflector type setup in chamber 1.

You may want to give it a try as I have it already. You may find it to be more than sufficient. Don't get me wrong. I love improving stuff, but you will never know if you improved the process or just wasted materials and space, if you don't have a point of reference.

Overall, im extremely happy with this reactor. I believe it is the future of mechanical/chemical phosphate reduction on large tanks.

I think I may want to try this. I was going to just use one of my reactors (GFO) but I may try two the way you have it setup.

I do have a question about your T. What size did you use? Is it one of the ones on BRS?

I was thinking maybe just using a really long piece of tube after the T and coiling it around to increase contact time with the water before it gets dumped in the filter reactor.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I believe so. They are much easier and cheaper to maintain. The media is as close to free as it can get. You can use 10 cents worth or pillow stuffing and less than $1 worth of LaCl for a months treatment.

Pillow stuffing is likely processed to contain flame retardant... not likely reef safe.

The caveat now is that IMO, you will never want to run your phosphates down close to zero (which you can easily do). You wouldn't want to have too much LaCl floating around in your system, should it escape your skimmer. You will need to test phosphates more often (every few weeks or so) to make sure of it.

I killed a scopas tang using LaCl and ,my phosphates were nowhere near zero at the time. The effects on the tang were cumulative, but reversed when I stopped dosing. When I started again they re-manifested, killing the tang.

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx

 

[insomniac2k2]

I have read up on your comments on using Lanthanum chloride. What I did not find is how you administered it. It also looked like your concentration was very high. The CR version that I am running is 1/3 the concentration of the stuff that you were likely using. Even at my maximum treatment rate, I was administering 5ml a day of 20ml LaCl3 to 1g RODI mixture.

Can you elaborate on how and where you were administering LaCl3? Were you broadcast dosing?

I have definitely been keeping a very watchful eye on all my fish. My yellow tang is extremely healthy at the moment, and eating like a pig.

Some pillow stuffing does have fire retardant. There a ton of posts in this forum that sorted it out. Wallmart and a few other companies carry a non-retardant version that is "reef safe". I should have disclaimed that though. I would have hated it if I caused someone to kill off their livestock by overlooking something like that.

Your feedback is appreciated. If we do not learn from past experiences, we all know what happens in the future!

Pillow stuffing is likely processed to contain flame retardant... not likely reef safe.

I killed a scopas tang using LaCl and ,my phosphates were nowhere near zero at the time. The effects on the tang were cumulative, but reversed when I stopped dosing. When I started again they re-manifested, killing the tang.

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx

 

[BeanAnimal]

I dosed for several months... sometimes every day, sometimes taking a week or two off.

Dosing was done directly into the intake of magnum power filter via a tube pushed into the intake pipe. The tube was connected to syringe. The magnum filter basket had carbon and was stuffed with floss and then covered with a filter sponge.

The discharge of the magnum power filter feeds my 6' tall skimmer. The discharge of the skimmer was set in a 20 micron filter sock nested inside a 10 micron filter sock.

Dosing was maybe 1ml or 2ml per day, spread out over the day.

The scopas tang was fine for several months but once he took a turn for the worse, it was quick. Stopping the dosing reversed the condition of the Tang. Starting dosing after a week or two hiatus would clearly cause the tang stress (breathing, thrashing). I assumed I had overdosed, so stopped again and waited another week or so. Po4 climbed and was likely at .9 or so. I dossed maybe 1ml over 6 hours... the tang was dead withing 12.

I am confident that there is an interaction with at least Zebrasoma tangs... I did what thought was reasonable WRT preventing free lanthanum from entering the display, but in a non-scientific way (both dosing, and observed response from the fish). It could be that my methodology was flawed and I simply was overdosing in relation to the flow through the filter and skimmer, and this allowing free lanthanum to escape into the system. Smaller more dilute doses may have made the difference.

I hope my experience and thoughts help...

 

[insomniac2k2]

It sounds like you took reasonable precautions. I would love to get a bit more information from you.

I just did some quick math on my present dose rate.

I presently dose about 60ml a day (projected maintenance dose) of 190ML RODI to 1ML of 66% diluted LaCl3. This is being dosed @ a rate of 2.5ML an hour into my reactor that feeds directly into my skimmer.

So with that math, im somewhere near .33 of a ML a day of 66% diluted LaCl3. If I assume that you were using full dosage SeaKleer Lanthanum Chloride, I would be dosing somewhere near .11 ml of LaCl3 a day on a dose schedule that is split up 8 times an hour on a 24hr cycle. My total water volume is around 120g.

Being that I do not like to make too many assumptions, can you confirm with me what version of LaCl3 you were using (brand and dilution). Can you also let me know what your water volume was at the time of testing?

 

[dirtyBit]

Thanks insomniac2k2,

BRS has two T's:
Mur-lok Reducing Tee 1⁄4" x 3⁄8" x 3⁄8" Push Connect
and
1⁄4" x 1⁄4" x 1⁄4" Tee Union Push Connect

I think you may be right about a long tube not creating enough contact time. I currently have all my fish in another tank so I'm hoping I can reduce PO4 and do water changes before puting them back in the DT. I'll have to figure out a maintenance dose later.

 

[insomniac2k2]

I've also found those T's at BRS, but the problem is that I need 1/2" out of my pump and 1/2" into my reactor. 3/8" still requires 2 - 3/8" to 1/2" adapters which I still have not found. This is when I just chose to throw a couple pieces of tubing into each other and called it a day. I would love it if someone finds the exact T that would not require adaption!

 

[JSimpson]

Thanks for all the info posted here. I've been tossing around the idea of doing something similar on my 90gallon. I am thinking about dripping the diluted LC into the intake of a MJ400 that feeds into a TLF-150 reactor (with or without floss), and then putting the output of the reactor into a 10micron filter sock. Seems like the floss in the reactor might be an improvement over my original thought of an empty reactor used only as a mixing chamber. I'll be tagging along trying to learn here.

 

[insomniac2k2]

No problem. I really like the results that I am seeing with this way for Phosphate export. It sill may need tweaks here and there, but I think this method is certainly on the right track!

Moderation is key IMO.

If you were going to feed the reactor to anything, you may want to consider your skimmer. Then if possible, you can have your skimmer outflow into the filter sock.

If I felt that I needed further precip capture, then that's what I would do. Although at this point, I do not feel it to be necessary.

I believe that the true risk is not the bonded phosphates escaping into your water column, but rather the un-reacted LaCl3.

It's my goal to avoid overdosage at all times. I never want to see my phosphates close to undetectable.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Being that I do not like to make too many assumptions, can you confirm with me what version of LaCl3 you were using (brand and dilution). Can you also let me know what your water volume was at the time of testing?

I was using the full strength SeaKlear product sold at pool supply stores (I purchased it from a local pool supply).

At the time my total system volume was likely between 100 -125 gallons. 75g Display - rock/sand = maybe 70g
~8g skimmer
~30g at sump operating level.

Phosphates were as high as 1ppm (no kidding) and dosing took them down as low as .04 ppm. I never dosed more than 2ml a day (that I can remember) and those loarge doses were in the begining and reduced as po4 came down. As I mentioned on my site, when I stopped dosing, po4 would QUICKLY (a day or three) rise right back up to .8 or so. In an attempt to avoid the large doses and large swings, I started dosing much smaller doses (.1ml at a time) several times a day when I walked past the tank. Phosphate hovered between .1 and .08 for most of that time and that is when the Tang started to look bad, and eventually (after a dosing break maybe two weeks) died.

To be clear: I did not dilute the lanthanum chloride before dosing into the skimmer. I had intentioned of dosing the 1ml (or less) over 24hour period by mixing it with the top off water (fed into the magnum/skimmer/sock setup) but never got around to it by the time the Tang died. I stopped dosing and focused on a change in methodology.



Replacement of Lacl3 with other methods:

• removed a LOT of old rock (phosphate saturated?)
• tried Brightwell xport croutons (mixed results)
• discharge ALL drains into 10 micron sock and blow off all rocks and sump with large power head. Did this daily for weeks.
• elevate rock on sump to prevent detritus trap
• vacuum shallow sand bed in tank
• cut back on feeding --- WAY back
• replace dump style ATS with waterfall style (just recently)

Through the life of the tank I NEVER had GHA (2004 or so startup). When I stopped the lanthanum chloride, I had a terrible GHA outbreak... I mean terrible!!! It has lasted nearly 9 months and I have rode it out doing the mechanical removal, less feeding thing. It was growing FROM all of the old rock in my system. It is now only growing from a few spots and my water column reads close to 0 phosphate daily. So it looks like I have finally managed to rid the rock of saturated phosphate. The new scrubber (built from parts provided by Floyd R. Turbo) is starting to kick in and I hope it maintains levels for me.

Do I think the LaCl3 is viable? Not sure. It certainly helped to export piles of brown phosphate slime but I managed to kill a fish with it (at least basic evidence points to that). So short term it was great. Long term, I am not sure and may have pushed the envelope with my dosing methodology. Joe Yaiullo doses a rather small amount through a hage sand filter and (last I checked) had not reported adverse effects. Your methodology may be promising.

 

[JSimpson]

So far, I have noticed next to no ALK drop in my tank. BUT, I do vinegar/KALK dose through a stirrer, fed by my ATO.

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

 

[iced98lx]

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

 

[insomniac2k2]

Checked my levels 2 weeks ago. No change. I will check again tonight.

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

 

[insomniac2k2]

I would imagine that this would be similar to using a reactor. Although I do feel that you would want to agitate/mix the LaCl3 with as much water as possible before it gets to the floss. This is why I still keep my first reactor in play.

Im certainly not sure that it is necessary, but it works so well as it is, im not about to change it.

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

 

[insomniac2k2]

Thanks for the reply. You definitely had a whole lot of phosphates! I wonder if it also had something to do with the very large and rapid reduction that you were making? I recall reading something about adverse affects on livestock from a large phosphate reduction. Something like, .1 change. I'll have to go search around and see If I can find it.

In any case, this information is very important. I will definitely keep a close eye on my tank and post any feedback or findings along the way.

I was using the full strength SeaKlear product sold at pool supply stores (I purchased it from a local pool supply).

At the time my total system volume was likely between 100 -125 gallons. 75g Display - rock/sand = maybe 70g
~8g skimmer
~30g at sump operating level.

Phosphates were as high as 1ppm (no kidding) and dosing took them down as low as .04 ppm. I never dosed more than 2ml a day (that I can remember) and those loarge doses were in the begining and reduced as po4 came down. As I mentioned on my site, when I stopped dosing, po4 would QUICKLY (a day or three) rise right back up to .8 or so. In an attempt to avoid the large doses and large swings, I started dosing much smaller doses (.1ml at a time) several times a day when I walked past the tank. Phosphate hovered between .1 and .08 for most of that time and that is when the Tang started to look bad, and eventually (after a dosing break maybe two weeks) died.

To be clear: I did not dilute the lanthanum chloride before dosing into the skimmer. I had intentioned of dosing the 1ml (or less) over 24hour period by mixing it with the top off water (fed into the magnum/skimmer/sock setup) but never got around to it by the time the Tang died. I stopped dosing and focused on a change in methodology.



Replacement of Lacl3 with other methods:

• removed a LOT of old rock (phosphate saturated?)
• tried Brightwell xport croutons (mixed results)
• discharge ALL drains into 10 micron sock and blow off all rocks and sump with large power head. Did this daily for weeks.
• elevate rock on sump to prevent detritus trap
• vacuum shallow sand bed in tank
• cut back on feeding --- WAY back
• replace dump style ATS with waterfall style (just recently)

Through the life of the tank I NEVER had GHA (2004 or so startup). When I stopped the lanthanum chloride, I had a terrible GHA outbreak... I mean terrible!!! It has lasted nearly 9 months and I have rode it out doing the mechanical removal, less feeding thing. It was growing FROM all of the old rock in my system. It is now only growing from a few spots and my water column reads close to 0 phosphate daily. So it looks like I have finally managed to rid the rock of saturated phosphate. The new scrubber (built from parts provided by Floyd R. Turbo) is starting to kick in and I hope it maintains levels for me.

Do I think the LaCl3 is viable? Not sure. It certainly helped to export piles of brown phosphate slime but I managed to kill a fish with it (at least basic evidence points to that). So short term it was great. Long term, I am not sure and may have pushed the envelope with my dosing methodology. Joe Yaiullo doses a rather small amount through a hage sand filter and (last I checked) had not reported adverse effects. Your methodology may be promising.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

As a matter of chemistry... yes it will drop ALK. You will simply have to adjust your dosing to compensate. My MAG got all out of whack for a short period during the process, but I really can't say why. I was not at all concerned with anything but phosphate. To that end (and even recently) I did not dose ANY calcium or alkalinity and simply let the levels drop for months. Growth slowed to a halt, but my concern was cleaning up the mess, not growing coral.

 

[BeanAnimal]

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

That was what I did, pre-skimmer and 10 micron sock. I would not fathom doing any less, though another club member was just dumping it (500g system) into the sump a capful at a time and letting the resulting cloud "settle".