iced98lx
New member
Interesting. Your loss concerns me greatly. I'll be spending extra time treating my rock prior to introduction into the system to rid myself of as much bound phosphate as I can.
LaCl Reactor
- Thread starter insomniac2k2
- Start date
Interesting. Your loss concerns me greatly. I'll be spending extra time treating my rock prior to introduction into the system to rid myself of as much bound phosphate as I can.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Yes, a lot of variables. Though I am fairly comfortable in my conclusions. The initial dosing and large drops did not appear to have negative effects (though they could have been latent). It was the later, smaller sustained dosing in an attempt to keep the levels down (some months after the intial large swings) that appeared to take the toll.
insomniac2k2
Active member
I've been treating a 35g tub this way in preparation for a larger tank. If you have the time and footprint to do this, it just doesn't make any sense not to.
iced98lx
New member
Yea pre-treating prior to system setup was always the plan, but I'm always interested in ways of taking care of phosphate, I've found them to be a problem no matter how little is in my rock. I am acid dipping and pre-treating with LaCl and i have plenty of time to do it outside of a running system.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I am not sure what I stand on that whole matter.... Part of me wants to blame the dry base rock I used to set the system up with but I did not have known issues (I never tested for phosphate) for maybe 5-6 years when things went to crap...
Then again, my feeding was not what we would consider even close to being moderate, and for a time of maybe 2 years I pretty much neglected ALL maintenance because everything was thriving. So did I plant the ticking time bomb with the dry base rock, or build it over time? Who knows, maybe both.
Then again, my feeding was not what we would consider even close to being moderate, and for a time of maybe 2 years I pretty much neglected ALL maintenance because everything was thriving. So did I plant the ticking time bomb with the dry base rock, or build it over time? Who knows, maybe both.
I made a reactor similar to Insomniac, used a very diluted (50 to 1) solution that I fed through a dosing pump at 5 cc's per/hour. My reaction chamber was 20 inches deep and the flow rate was about 250 litres/hour.
I saw PO4 drop slowly over 3 weeks from 22 PPB (Hanna Ultral low test) to 9 PPB. Once I got to this point of vanishingly low PO4 I began to notice some adverse effects on fish and coral. I dont think it was the low PO4 that did this, because I can easily achieve this level with GFO with no visible adverse effects.
But I suspect that even at my low dose rates, with very little PO4 to get rid of, there was some free LaCl2 getting past the filter wool and into the Tank, whereas any La PO4 precipitate was getting removed.
I am now modifying my reactor to incorporate a second chamber with will be 50/50 filter wool and GAC, hopefully will capture any free La Cl2 in the Carbon.
Also, I will experiment with dose rates to see what dilution I need to maintain just enough LaCl2 going into the system to maintain a low PO4, but minimalising the potential for free La Cl2 to cross over into the DT
I think the La Cl2 method of PO4 removal has a lot of promise, but there is a way to go before it is foolproof !!
I saw PO4 drop slowly over 3 weeks from 22 PPB (Hanna Ultral low test) to 9 PPB. Once I got to this point of vanishingly low PO4 I began to notice some adverse effects on fish and coral. I dont think it was the low PO4 that did this, because I can easily achieve this level with GFO with no visible adverse effects.
But I suspect that even at my low dose rates, with very little PO4 to get rid of, there was some free LaCl2 getting past the filter wool and into the Tank, whereas any La PO4 precipitate was getting removed.
I am now modifying my reactor to incorporate a second chamber with will be 50/50 filter wool and GAC, hopefully will capture any free La Cl2 in the Carbon.
Also, I will experiment with dose rates to see what dilution I need to maintain just enough LaCl2 going into the system to maintain a low PO4, but minimalising the potential for free La Cl2 to cross over into the DT
I think the La Cl2 method of PO4 removal has a lot of promise, but there is a way to go before it is foolproof !!
insomniac2k2
Active member
From my experience thus far, I believe that your dose was very high. To make the comparison to my dosage and dose rate:
I use CR version. If I compare my dosage to yours. I dose at 570 to 1 @ 5ML/CC an hour.
At that rate, and your already low phosphate level, you definitely flooded a lot of LaCl3 into your tank.
If you read up on my posts, you will see that I have a second stage that im using compacted ROX carbon. At first I didnt think I like it. But now I find it to be polishing my tank well. I also see much darker filter floss now.
On a side note. I decided to do a little experiment. When my tank got to .07 PPM, I decided to stop administering LaCl3 for 3 days, and keep my flow through my reactor. I noticed no change in filter floss coloring, but after 3 days, my phosphates rose almost exactly what I anticipated they would. I had calculated that my maintenance dose would keep my levels @ or very near .07. Double my maintenance dose, made my phosphates drop .01 every 2 days.
My new phosphate level is .11 . I'm now resuming my maintenance dose to see if i can keep that number where it is at. I will check in 3 days. I've posted it a bit back, but my maintenance dose is about 2.5 CC/ML an hour at the same dilution rate of around 570 to 1 -or- 20ML of CR version(66% dilute) per gallon.
I use CR version. If I compare my dosage to yours. I dose at 570 to 1 @ 5ML/CC an hour.
At that rate, and your already low phosphate level, you definitely flooded a lot of LaCl3 into your tank.
If you read up on my posts, you will see that I have a second stage that im using compacted ROX carbon. At first I didnt think I like it. But now I find it to be polishing my tank well. I also see much darker filter floss now.
On a side note. I decided to do a little experiment. When my tank got to .07 PPM, I decided to stop administering LaCl3 for 3 days, and keep my flow through my reactor. I noticed no change in filter floss coloring, but after 3 days, my phosphates rose almost exactly what I anticipated they would. I had calculated that my maintenance dose would keep my levels @ or very near .07. Double my maintenance dose, made my phosphates drop .01 every 2 days.
My new phosphate level is .11 . I'm now resuming my maintenance dose to see if i can keep that number where it is at. I will check in 3 days. I've posted it a bit back, but my maintenance dose is about 2.5 CC/ML an hour at the same dilution rate of around 570 to 1 -or- 20ML of CR version(66% dilute) per gallon.
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insomniac2k2
Active member
I also just checked my alkalinity. I have to disclaim that I am knowingly skewing my results due to adding a healthy amount of vinegar to my kalk stirrer (in a similar fashion to how im doing LC).
My ALK is actually going up gradually since adding vinegar direct into my reactor, due to the extra kalk saturation. I have no metric to tell if my DKH is slowing due to LC more than otherwise. The only thing that I can say is that I have always been near 11dkh. Im presently 11.2 (which I might add is supposed to be a no-no when carbon dosing, according to some).
For now, I feel that as long as I control my dose rate as I am now, I will not see a loss in alkalinity like others have seen.
My ALK is actually going up gradually since adding vinegar direct into my reactor, due to the extra kalk saturation. I have no metric to tell if my DKH is slowing due to LC more than otherwise. The only thing that I can say is that I have always been near 11dkh. Im presently 11.2 (which I might add is supposed to be a no-no when carbon dosing, according to some).
For now, I feel that as long as I control my dose rate as I am now, I will not see a loss in alkalinity like others have seen.
Yep...it appears that my dilution was way off. I will continue to experiment and drop down to something near your 500 ish :1.
At my original dilution I calculated that I was putting 2.4 cc per day of La Cl2 through the reactor, which I felt would not present an issue in my 1000 litere system (represents an addition of 2.4 PPM,) as this amount should be fully reacted...but maybe I was somewhat optimistic and some free La Cl2 was getting through..
Next step for me is to finish construction of the stage 2 reactor (using filter wool and GAC same as you and try again with much lower dilution.
I have my own views that I want to target a much lower Po4 level than you, I am after less than 5 PPB (or 0.015 PPM)...that's a matter of individual choice :lol2::lol2:
BTW, in 3 weeks of dosing La Cl2 I did not notice any change in KH, then again, I keep my DT at 7.6 to 8.0 which is identical to the NSW that I use for W/C. There may be more effect at higher KH levels ??
At my original dilution I calculated that I was putting 2.4 cc per day of La Cl2 through the reactor, which I felt would not present an issue in my 1000 litere system (represents an addition of 2.4 PPM,) as this amount should be fully reacted...but maybe I was somewhat optimistic and some free La Cl2 was getting through..
Next step for me is to finish construction of the stage 2 reactor (using filter wool and GAC same as you and try again with much lower dilution.
I have my own views that I want to target a much lower Po4 level than you, I am after less than 5 PPB (or 0.015 PPM)...that's a matter of individual choice :lol2::lol2:
BTW, in 3 weeks of dosing La Cl2 I did not notice any change in KH, then again, I keep my DT at 7.6 to 8.0 which is identical to the NSW that I use for W/C. There may be more effect at higher KH levels ??
insomniac2k2
Active member
260g is certainly a lot more water volume than what I have, but my gut tells me that the dosage is definitely going to be the most important factor. I would imagine that if you go with that 500 to 1 dosage @ say 10cc an hour would probably be a great start. Especially if you can spread it out in the smallest possible doses. I believe you said you are dripping?
May I ask why you would possibly want to be that low? I would fear that the LaCl3 wouldn't effectively find the free phosphates in the reactor with such low levels.
May I ask why you would possibly want to be that low? I would fear that the LaCl3 wouldn't effectively find the free phosphates in the reactor with such low levels.
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Insomniac,
I have a couple questions if I may. I believe my DT has about 120g TWV. To confirm, you are using SeaClear "CR"? You mix 1ml SeaClear CR into 190ml RO/DI?
I'd love to set my dosing up like yours with the reactors but this isn't possible for me
I plan to dose via my overflow into a 5 micron filter sock which is located in my skimmer section. Also, I am going to try to use a 5 micron sock at the skimmer output to catch any LaC13 which may not be skimmed out(haven't yet figured it out but I'm confident that I can). Do you have any suggestions?
I have a couple questions if I may. I believe my DT has about 120g TWV. To confirm, you are using SeaClear "CR"? You mix 1ml SeaClear CR into 190ml RO/DI?
I'd love to set my dosing up like yours with the reactors but this isn't possible for me
I plan to dose via my overflow into a 5 micron filter sock which is located in my skimmer section. Also, I am going to try to use a 5 micron sock at the skimmer output to catch any LaC13 which may not be skimmed out(haven't yet figured it out but I'm confident that I can). Do you have any suggestions?The product I use which is available locally has 150 ml per litre LaCl2...15%, your soloution therefore is about 4 times as concentrated, so I will change to a dilution of 1 in 125 of mine. I use a dosing pump set to dose each hour and I will work out what the individual dose should be and take it from there....probably will go to about 100 ml /day and see how it goes....that's about 15 PPB of La dosed per day.
I recognise your concern with low,low levels of PO4 not being scavenged effectively, that is why I used a long reactor and a modest flow rate, so as to get the dwell time as high as possible.
I chase ultra low levels because there is no PO4 or nitrates detectable in my NSW...and that's where my corals live !!! I definitely see much improved PE and colour with these ultra low levels...but then again, it's a personal choice :lol2::lol2:
insomniac2k2
Active member
Yes I use cr. 190ml to 1 is correct. This also translates to 20ml LaCl3 "cr" to 1g RODI.
I'm not sure that I would do it this way, but there is probably a lot of good resources at Gary's thread.
In short, I do not believe that the excess LaCl3 will be caught by the filter sock. I believe that the only time that anything can be mechanically filtered out is after phosphates are bound. This is the key reason that I dump mine direct into my skimmer even after my double reactor with floss and carbon. And I mean direct. My skimmer has the highest concentration of accumulated junk in my tank. I believe that if anything is going to pick up the excess LaCl3, this is the place. This is why it is so important to have a very controlled contact area.
I believe that Boomer gave some specifics on micron size in the LC thread. If you haven't read up on that already, you may want to check it out.
I'm not sure that I would do it this way, but there is probably a lot of good resources at Gary's thread.
In short, I do not believe that the excess LaCl3 will be caught by the filter sock. I believe that the only time that anything can be mechanically filtered out is after phosphates are bound. This is the key reason that I dump mine direct into my skimmer even after my double reactor with floss and carbon. And I mean direct. My skimmer has the highest concentration of accumulated junk in my tank. I believe that if anything is going to pick up the excess LaCl3, this is the place. This is why it is so important to have a very controlled contact area.
I believe that Boomer gave some specifics on micron size in the LC thread. If you haven't read up on that already, you may want to check it out.
Insomniac,
I have a couple questions if I may. I believe my DT has about 120g TWV. To confirm, you are using SeaClear "CR"? You mix 1ml SeaClear CR into 190ml RO/DI?
I'd love to set my dosing up like yours with the reactors but this isn't possible for me
insomniac2k2
Active member
Have you read the sheet to insure that there is no other substances in the concentrate? I have read where others have tried other brands and have had a very bad experience, do to it having other stuff in the mixture (like anti-algae chemicals, etc).
I would hate for that to happen to you.
I would hate for that to happen to you.
Thanks so much for the confirmation and additional information:thumbsup: I will again check Gary's thread and do a post there to see if Gary has any additional thoughts/suggestions. I will also about Boomer's micron size...I had seen 5 micron as well as 10 so I hope the 5 will work, and well.
I hope that manufacturers are considering a similar or your design as it sure would help us female non-DIYer's. Thanks again!!
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Our captive systems are very different than the real ocean... So what works in the ocean does not always work in a captive system
What kind of pump is needed to drive the water through the floss.
I plan to use 3 BRS reactors for my setup:
1. Jumbo BRS reactor for reaction chamber
2. Standard BRS reactor for floss
3. Standard BRS reactor for ROX
I have a Mag 3 pump, will that be strong enough to push through both floss and ROX reactors? How tightly do you compact the floss?
I already have the adapter to run right into skimmer. Thanks for the help.
I plan to use 3 BRS reactors for my setup:
1. Jumbo BRS reactor for reaction chamber
2. Standard BRS reactor for floss
3. Standard BRS reactor for ROX
I have a Mag 3 pump, will that be strong enough to push through both floss and ROX reactors? How tightly do you compact the floss?
I already have the adapter to run right into skimmer. Thanks for the help.
insomniac2k2
Active member
That will be more than enough. In fact, I recommend that you invest in a gate valve to slow it down. I started this reactor at about 5gph. I have since upped it to about 20gph. So far, it seems like a good compromise between slow speed through reactor and fast enough for some good water polishing.
I pack the floss real tight. The ROX makes for a nice addition in the floss section (compacted between packed floss). It seems to put a healthy back pressure on the pump. So its a pretty good assumption that it means that the micron size of the water passages are much smaller.
If you are running rox in a 3rd reactor, please post back if you find it effective or not. So far, I have not found a need to do so. Everything looks pretty good on my setup as it is so far.
Good luck. I am extremely happy with my rig, and my tanks health so far. My new SPS has very good PE and all my fish seem very happy. This is more than I can say when I was using GFO. Not that I want to start a debate there....
I pack the floss real tight. The ROX makes for a nice addition in the floss section (compacted between packed floss). It seems to put a healthy back pressure on the pump. So its a pretty good assumption that it means that the micron size of the water passages are much smaller.
If you are running rox in a 3rd reactor, please post back if you find it effective or not. So far, I have not found a need to do so. Everything looks pretty good on my setup as it is so far.
Good luck. I am extremely happy with my rig, and my tanks health so far. My new SPS has very good PE and all my fish seem very happy. This is more than I can say when I was using GFO. Not that I want to start a debate there....
I felt that I needed the extra reactor since I planned to use a carbon reactor anyway so why not kill two birds with one stone. I did lose by yellow tang about two days after dosing into a 5 micron sock that over flowed, just trying to be careful. I'm at .10 - .15 ppm so I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
insomniac2k2
Active member
Can you elaborate on your setup that you had when you lost your yellow tang? It seems extremely odd that such a short term dosage would kill any fish. Were you overdosing LC by accident?
