I dripped 10ml diluted into a 1 gallon of RO. The mistake I made was the dwell time dripping into the filter sock plus I discovered that water was passing through the seam of my 5 micron sock. Too much LaCl too fast. The end result was some lanthanum got into my DT. I quickly put two more socks to filter the suspended precipitate. My blue hep was breathing heavy and a day later my yellow tang never was seen again.
LaCl Reactor
- Thread starter insomniac2k2
- Start date
insomniac2k2
Active member
I've found that a very safe rate to drip in my reactor is 5ml an hour of 20ml (seaclear CR)per gallon. This gives me a reduction of .01 per every day or so.
From what I've read about phosphate reduction. The biggest risk to your livestock (besides overdose of any product) , is rapid phosphate reduction.
It took a while to get there. It should take a while to reduce them, IMO.
My maintenance dose to keep constant levels is almost exactly 2.5ml per gallon.
You will likely need to tweak your own setup, but that should be a good baseline to work with.
From what I've read about phosphate reduction. The biggest risk to your livestock (besides overdose of any product) , is rapid phosphate reduction.
It took a while to get there. It should take a while to reduce them, IMO.
My maintenance dose to keep constant levels is almost exactly 2.5ml per gallon.
You will likely need to tweak your own setup, but that should be a good baseline to work with.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
While there may be some truth to the fact that rapid phosphate reduction can have some negative effects... I highly doubt it is the mechanism responsible for the Zebrasoma mortality rate that appears to be associated with laCl dosing. You can take a tang from a system riddled with phosphate and drop it in a "clean" system without triggering the same heavy breathing, thrashing, etc.
In my mind (supported by numerous first hand reports from other LaCl users) the effects are cumulative and deadly. In that context the dilemma is how to prevent 100% of the free LaCl from entering the water column. The LaCl is not a "magnet" for Po4, but rather bonds to it on contact. From that perspective, let us assume that the lower the concentration of Po4, the harder it is for a molecule of LaCl to find a molecule of LaCl. It is not at all hard to imagine a steady stream (even at super low doses) of LaCl to find its way into the free water column. At the same time, what are the chances of the Zebrasoma inhaling that LaCl before it is bound. I don't have the numbers and have no intention of trying to derive or work through the math... Just something to ponder.
In my mind (supported by numerous first hand reports from other LaCl users) the effects are cumulative and deadly. In that context the dilemma is how to prevent 100% of the free LaCl from entering the water column. The LaCl is not a "magnet" for Po4, but rather bonds to it on contact. From that perspective, let us assume that the lower the concentration of Po4, the harder it is for a molecule of LaCl to find a molecule of LaCl. It is not at all hard to imagine a steady stream (even at super low doses) of LaCl to find its way into the free water column. At the same time, what are the chances of the Zebrasoma inhaling that LaCl before it is bound. I don't have the numbers and have no intention of trying to derive or work through the math... Just something to ponder.
So, I'm a bit confused on where I should start once my reactor is setup. I use CR as well and plan to drip using a 1.1ml/min BRS doser. So the calculation would be, assuming 20ml of SeaClearCR into a gallon (3786ml) of RODI water.
That means .347ml of SC an hour and 8.33ml/day. Is this a good starting point for my 350 gallon system? How do you dose only 5ml/hour with your BRS doser. My doser is arriving today so I'm not familiar with how they operate.
That means .347ml of SC an hour and 8.33ml/day. Is this a good starting point for my 350 gallon system? How do you dose only 5ml/hour with your BRS doser. My doser is arriving today so I'm not familiar with how they operate.
insomniac2k2
Active member
As BeanAnimal has stated above. This is no exact science. Now that that disclaimer is flown. Yes, that looks good to me as a starting point. If you don't see your numbers improve in about 5 days, up the dosage a bit.
The dosing pump on the other hand will require something to control it. I use an Apex presently. If you do not have a controller of any sort, you will need to look into either buying a pre-canned one, or making one. You may want to search around on that topic. I have always had an Apex, so I didnt have a need for any other controller :/
The dosing pump on the other hand will require something to control it. I use an Apex presently. If you do not have a controller of any sort, you will need to look into either buying a pre-canned one, or making one. You may want to search around on that topic. I have always had an Apex, so I didnt have a need for any other controller :/
insomniac2k2
Active member
Here is my present dose rate:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/000:15/003:30 Then ON
I screwed up on my math in some past posts. The Apex code above equals something near 3.6 ML an hour. I drop something near .01 every other day with this dosage.
When I get where I want to be, I change this dosage to: OSC 000:00/000:15/007:00 Then ON
With that dosage, I gain .01 every week or so. I have not determined if I want to fine tune anything more than that.
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/000:15/003:30 Then ON
I screwed up on my math in some past posts. The Apex code above equals something near 3.6 ML an hour. I drop something near .01 every other day with this dosage.
When I get where I want to be, I change this dosage to: OSC 000:00/000:15/007:00 Then ON
With that dosage, I gain .01 every week or so. I have not determined if I want to fine tune anything more than that.
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insomniac2k2
Active member
15 seconds on, every 3 minutes and 30 seconds
Personally, I would not adjust dosage based on tank volume. I would adjust dosage based on how quickly phosphates are being removed. As I stated in past posts. I find .01 reduction every few days to be perfectly acceptable.
When you get down to low concentrations, I have to agree with BeanAnimal. That you will be injecting your tank with un-reacted LaCl3, because there is not enough free phosphates in the system at the time when it entered the reaction chamber.
This is why others advise to essentially not "play with fire". For me, anything near .07 ppm should be acceptable. Others have goals to remove more. While it can be done VERY easily, I fear that it is probably not a good idea.
Personally, I would not adjust dosage based on tank volume. I would adjust dosage based on how quickly phosphates are being removed. As I stated in past posts. I find .01 reduction every few days to be perfectly acceptable.
When you get down to low concentrations, I have to agree with BeanAnimal. That you will be injecting your tank with un-reacted LaCl3, because there is not enough free phosphates in the system at the time when it entered the reaction chamber.
This is why others advise to essentially not "play with fire". For me, anything near .07 ppm should be acceptable. Others have goals to remove more. While it can be done VERY easily, I fear that it is probably not a good idea.
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Reactor
Reactor
Insomniac
It seems that your reactor has prompted a commercial version.....
Did you get any royalties :idea::idea:
http://************.com/?s=lanthanum+chloride
Reactor
Insomniac
It seems that your reactor has prompted a commercial version.....
Did you get any royalties :idea::idea:
http://************.com/?s=lanthanum+chloride
insomniac2k2
Active member
Someone will have to pm me the manufactured one. I can't find it.
Ironically, I was pondering the thought of putting in a bunch of research and going mainstream with it. It just hasn't been the way I operate to date.
I actually have a controller all mocked up already. Cost would be the major inhibiter. It's hard to sell something that your only going to make a few bucks on. It's a lot of hassle to build, package, and support.
If I ever change my mind ,I suppose I'd have to become a RC sponsor, haha.
Ironically, I was pondering the thought of putting in a bunch of research and going mainstream with it. It just hasn't been the way I operate to date.
I actually have a controller all mocked up already. Cost would be the major inhibiter. It's hard to sell something that your only going to make a few bucks on. It's a lot of hassle to build, package, and support.
If I ever change my mind ,I suppose I'd have to become a RC sponsor, haha.
bmanzie
New member
So I have a question. I am now dosing based on what I have read in this thread 20ml LaCl mixed with 1g rodi water at 5.5 ml am hour. I started to notice a slight haze/film on the glass. Could this be from the LaCl? I tried scrubbing it with my mag float but it doesn't come off. Anyone else having this issue? If so please tell me that it could be cleaned..
insomniac2k2
Active member
If you are noticing a new change of any sort, I would take caution and stop dosage until you figure it out.
This could have been unreacted LaCl3 that entered your water column and is now adhering to unbound phosphates on your surfaces. Not really sure. I know the stuff is sticky. My skimmer looks like it went to war after a few weeks of constant skimming.
Did you happen to change anything else during this time?
Are you using CR? If not, you are overdosing by my standards.
Are you using a reactor of some sort? If so, how is it configured?
This could have been unreacted LaCl3 that entered your water column and is now adhering to unbound phosphates on your surfaces. Not really sure. I know the stuff is sticky. My skimmer looks like it went to war after a few weeks of constant skimming.
Did you happen to change anything else during this time?
Are you using CR? If not, you are overdosing by my standards.
Are you using a reactor of some sort? If so, how is it configured?
Based on what I learned from my experiences and with some guidance from Insomniac2K2, I dropped my dose rate to 5ml Lanthanum in 2 litres RODI and am dosing at 84 ml/day into 1000 liters DT via the reactor. I also added a second stage to the reactor with 50% carbon and 50% wool.
My Po4 is holding at 12 PPB Phosphorous ( 0.036 Phosphate) on the Hanna Ultra low test and there is no adverse effect on the inhabitants and no deposits on the glass. I guess I learned that overdosing is really problematical....maybe you could dial it back 50% and go from there. Its very likely you have free Lanthanum in the DT which is reacting.
bmanzie
New member
Yeah I haven't changed anything other than the LaCl. I am using the CR version of this solution. As far as over dosing, I am following your lead with how much to mix and how much to drip.
I am not using a reactor (yet) but maybe now I should!
I am not using a reactor (yet) but maybe now I should!
insomniac2k2
Active member
Gotcha. Just making sure you were CR. 5.5 was my original start dose. Just as a disclaimer. I have since been able to adjust my dose even lower. 3.5 - 4 ml has become mg latest reduction dose. 2.5 is still my maintenance dose.
I'm slowly refining my numbers, so I figure I should post for others to learn from my experiences.
I'm slowly refining my numbers, so I figure I should post for others to learn from my experiences.
