LaCl Reactor

[terri_ann]

Nitrate at 10ppm per Salifert.

Now, I need some help here :0) Tested PO4 and it was at .1747 I checked the flow going into the 5 micron sock...almost a drip. I changed out the MJ pump and looked at the tubing up to the reaction chamber. Couldn't get the rest of the tubing off to see if there was a blockage...(don't dare wake the hubby up for something like that! lol) SO, what I am thinking is the MJ may not be a powerful enough pump to push the water. It has at least 10 feet of tubing it's trying to flow through plus push the water through the jumbo reaction chamber and through the sediment filter. I believe that is part of the problem even if there is a blockage somewhere. {Other than one, no one else has had a problem with a blockage...the blockage could be the result of not enough force to push the precipitant?} What size of pump should I buy? I have a valve to where I can control the flow :0) I was thinking a mag-drive pump as I like those:0)

 

[terri_ann]

You have plenty of PO4 and NO3 so the limiting factor in your case is being carbon limited. Water changes do little for NO3 reduction in larger tanks but they are an easy and cost effective tool for smaller tanks where with enough replacement you are OK. For a larger tank like yours, you want your system to be able to maintain PO4 and NO3 water quality by itself using bacterial filtration. Have you considered the idea of buying a good quality doser? I like the GHL 3 pump unit with built in controller. Then you can start dosing vinegar safety. With this, your PO4 and NO3 will drop and most importantly they will stay low. You can also use the second pump head to dose LaCL - works great. Your fish and corals will thank you! Just a thought since you seem to be so passionate about your tank.

Can you explain what the "carbon limitation" means Chris?

I use the BRS 1.1ml dosers with my Apex. I have 1 for each of the LaCl, Alk and CA solutions. Are these not good enough? At some point, I will need to dose Alk and CA for my 40B and possibly down the road for the frag tanks. I could consider the GHL for future needs and change all the BRS dosers for use on the other tanks if necessary.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Can you explain what the "carbon limitation" means Chris?

I use the BRS 1.1ml dosers with my Apex. I have 1 for each of the LaCl, Alk and CA solutions. Are these not good enough? At some point, I will need to dose Alk and CA for my 40B and possibly down the road for the frag tanks. I could consider the GHL for future needs and change all the BRS dosers for use on the other tanks if necessary.

Vinegar, vodka, bio-pellets, and sugar are all forms of carbon. If you read up on the redfield ratio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfield_ratio, you will find all kinds of info about how plankton, bacteria and other forms of life in the sea consume carbon, PO4 and NO3 at a certain balanced rate. By supplementing your tank with more carbon (vinegar), you allow your bacteria population to grow many fold. The extra bacteria absorb the carbon but also absorb more PO4 and NO3 in the process. Then your skimmer pulls out more PO4 laden skimmate. It works wonderfully and allows you to get your PO4 down to around 0.03 and NO3 down to around 2ppm without relying on an absorber like GFO or LaCL for the most part. Read up on vinegar dosing on RC and you will get all the details you need.

When carbon limited, your bacteria population can only grow to a certain point and then their numbers are not high enough to absorb all the extra PO4 floating around in your tank. Your LaCL reactor is getting you by but you are fighting nature in the process. Add carbon(vinegar) and your PO4 will drop easier and your NO3 will go down too.

:bounce3:

 

[terri_ann]

:rolleye1:

Vinegar, vodka, bio-pellets, and sugar are all forms of carbon. If you read up on the redfield ratio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfield_ratio, you will find all kinds of info about how plankton, bacteria and other forms of life in the sea consume carbon, PO4 and NO3 at a certain balanced rate. By supplementing your tank with more carbon (vinegar), you allow your bacteria population to grow many fold. The extra bacteria absorb the carbon but also absorb more PO4 and NO3 in the process. Then your skimmer pulls out more PO4 laden skimmate. It works wonderfully and allows you to get your PO4 down to around 0.03 and NO3 down to around 2ppm without relying on an absorber like GFO or LaCL for the most part. Read up on vinegar dosing on RC and you will get all the details you need.

When carbon limited, your bacteria population can only grow to a certain point and then their numbers are not high enough to absorb all the extra PO4 floating around in your tank. Your LaCL reactor is getting you by but you are fighting nature in the process. Add carbon(vinegar) and your PO4 will drop easier and your NO3 will go down too.

:bounce3:

Thanks Chris! I have been dosing vinegar for 3 years. I did read a lot on carbon dosing here about 3 years ago... I'm sure I have forgotten that info now Maybe I'm not dosing enough? 40ml every morning (have been raising it from 30ml for the last 2 weeks). I wish I knew how much vinegar to add in the 10g tank I use for ATO(or how much vinegar/gallon) . That would supply a more consistent carbon source to the bacteria.

I also add bacteria when I remember...Dr. Tim's Eco, Waste-Away and Re-fresh. I've always added the bacteria after a WC but then with not doing WC's until this past week, I forgot. I dosed Eco and Waste-Away for these past 2 WC's :thumbsup:

I did 'try' to read the Redfield Ratio about 4 months ago but I have to admit, my brain just wasn't comprehending it :facepalm: {My problem/s are so frustrating :hammer I thank God everyday that I have people like you, Insomniac, Worm, etc who are patient (and understanding) and willing to explain things in simple terms so I can comprehend!!:thumbsup:} Your explanation has helped and jogged my memory some also...Thanks!:bounce2:

 

[ReefKeeper64]

:rolleye1:

Thanks Chris! I have been dosing vinegar for 3 years. I did read a lot on carbon dosing here about 3 years ago... I'm sure I have forgotten that info now Maybe I'm not dosing enough? 40ml every morning (have been raising it from 30ml for the last 2 weeks). I wish I knew how much vinegar to add in the 10g tank I use for ATO(or how much vinegar/gallon) . That would supply a more consistent carbon source to the bacteria.

I also add bacteria when I remember...Dr. Tim's Eco, Waste-Away and Re-fresh. I've always added the bacteria after a WC but then with not doing WC's until this past week, I forgot. I dosed Eco and Waste-Away for these past 2 WC's :thumbsup:

I did 'try' to read the Redfield Ratio about 4 months ago but I have to admit, my brain just wasn't comprehending it :facepalm: {My problem/s are so frustrating :hammer I thank God everyday that I have people like you, Insomniac, Worm, etc who are patient (and understanding) and willing to explain things in simple terms so I can comprehend!!:thumbsup:} Your explanation has helped and jogged my memory some also...Thanks!:bounce2:

No worries Terry. Your tag line says you have a 135g tank so at .4 to .7 ml of vinegar/day, you want to dose in the range of 54 to 94ml of vinegar per day. If your water starts to get noticeably cloudy, then cut back your dose by 50% and it will clear up.

54ml*7days=378ml per week. 94ml*7days=658ml per week. So if your 10g ATO is refilled once a week with RO water, then you could add about 400ml of vinegar to it and that should work fine. Then in week two you could increase the dose for the week to 500ml. In week 3 you could increase the dose to 600ml for that week. Adjust accordingly if your evaporation rate is higher or lower than 10g per week.

You know you have maxed out your vinegar dose when your water starts to get cloudy from all that bacteria in the water. If you do get cloudy water, you will want to dilute your RO/vinegar mixture by 50% and then your water will clear up by the next day. Its really simple. You'll find a balanced vinegar dose that works for you over several weeks.

From the PO4 and N03 readings you report, it sounds like you have well fed fat and happy fish. That being the case, you will probably still need to dose LaCL to get to your ideal range but the bacterial filtration improvement will definitely help reduce the amount of LaCL needed on an ongoing basis.

You probably already do this but keep a log or spreadsheet of all your dosages. This way you can keep better track of what is going on over time. It really helps!

 

[terri_ann]

No worries Terry. Your tag line says you have a 135g tank so at .4 to .7 ml of vinegar/day, you want to dose in the range of 54 to 94ml of vinegar per day. If your water starts to get noticeably cloudy, then cut back your dose by 50% and it will clear up.

54ml*7days=378ml per week. 94ml*7days=658ml per week. So if your 10g ATO is refilled once a week with RO water, then you could add about 400ml of vinegar to it and that should work fine. Then in week two you could increase the dose for the week to 500ml. In week 3 you could increase the dose to 600ml for that week. Adjust accordingly if your evaporation rate is higher or lower than 10g per week.

You know you have maxed out your vinegar dose when your water starts to get cloudy from all that bacteria in the water. If you do get cloudy water, you will want to dilute your RO/vinegar mixture by 50% and then your water will clear up by the next day. Its really simple. You'll find a balanced vinegar dose that works for you over several weeks.

From the PO4 and N03 readings you report, it sounds like you have well fed fat and happy fish. That being the case, you will probably still need to dose LaCL to get to your ideal range but the bacterial filtration improvement will definitely help reduce the amount of LaCL needed on an ongoing basis.

You probably already do this but keep a log or spreadsheet of all your dosages. This way you can keep better track of what is going on over time. It really helps!

I do have some questions Chris... Where did the .4ml and .7ml/vinegar come from?

When the water gets cloudy from the bacteria, I dilute what's left in the ATO tank with pure RO/DI water...so if 5g's is in the ATO, I add 5g RO/DI?

Then what?...say I was at 600ml/wk (wk 3) and it got cloudy...

I want to make sure that I understand this fully before I implement it:reading: Also, should I continue to add Dr. Tim's bacteria?

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I do have some questions Chris... Where did the .4ml and .7ml/vinegar come from?

.4 -.7 comes from the reef chemistry forum and tmz. This amount is also in line with Randy Holmes Farley's recommendations. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21217132&postcount=3

When the water gets cloudy from the bacteria, I dilute what's left in the ATO tank with pure RO/DI water...so if 5g's is in the ATO, I add 5g RO/DI? Yes, that's it. Very easy stuff.

Then what?...say I was at 600ml/wk (wk 3) and it got cloudy... You cut the dosage in half to 300/wk. The cloudiness will dissipate by the next day or so. You are essentially finding your own particular sweet spot for your unique tank so gradually work your way back up from 300 to 400/wk a week later. If you are seeing good results in your corals and test results you keep going up. You will eventually figure out that 600/wk or some amount is over doing it so you will back off to say 500/wk, or whatever you find is effective, without over cleaning your water. :reading:


I want to make sure that I understand this fully before I implement it:reading: Also, should I continue to add Dr. Tim's bacteria? Sure, that is a good idea since you own it already.

Happy Reefing!

 

[terri_ann]

Thanks so much Chris! I'm guessing the cloudiness is because of a bacteria bloom?

I have added the vinegar to the ATO water:bounce3: I'm very hopeful about this method! I may need more help from you with this in a couple weeks as I'll want to make sure that I am at the correct level. So I am looking for NO3 to be around 5ppm and PO4 around .03ppm, correct? It would/will be awesome if this works for my tank!!! I don't like having to use the LaCl because of the risks but if, I need to continue using it, maybe it will only be occasionally or at a very, very low rate.

I FINALLY got the hubby to help me with the LaCl reactor. As I had mentioned earlier, the water was just barely coming out the skimmer inlet. Well, he found what the problem was.............the sediment filter was dirty, VERY DIRTY, and was restricting the flow that much!:uhoh3: When we took it out of the canister, the color was a greyish goo and the particulates started falling into the canister water as he was removing it. It was unbelievable!:bounce2: I had only had the filter in the reactor for about a month! The first sediment filter lasted for 2- 2 1/2 months!:eek1:

I plan to test PO4 tomorrow as I had the reactor off for a few days since there wasn't enough flow. I will also test nitrates, etc.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

So I am looking for NO3 to be around 5ppm and PO4 around .03ppm, correct?

Yes, that is correct. Now when you get really good at dialing it all in, you'll notice that your SPS are happiest with N03 at around 0.5-2ppm and LPS/Softies are happiest at around 5ppm. Every tank is unique but these are good guidelines. In the future you'll have to let us know what parameters seem to work best for your corals!

Staying with the LaCL Reactor topic, I use 3 socks in my sump and dose diluted LaCL ever so slowly into my skimmer inlet using a GHL doser set to dose 1ml of diluted mixture per hour. Even at such a low rate, I find that the socks catch bound up phosphate quickly (3-4 days) and to be swapped out often. Its an easy and inexpensive method that I prefer over other options.

 

[terri_ann]

So I am looking for NO3 to be around 5ppm and PO4 around .03ppm, correct?

Yes, that is correct. Now when you get really good at dialing it all in, you'll notice that your SPS are happiest with N03 at around 0.5-2ppm and LPS/Softies are happiest at around 5ppm. Every tank is unique but these are good guidelines. In the future you'll have to let us know what parameters seem to work best for your corals!

Staying with the LaCL Reactor topic, I use 3 socks in my sump and dose diluted LaCL ever so slowly into my skimmer inlet using a GHL doser set to dose 1ml of diluted mixture per hour. Even at such a low rate, I find that the socks catch bound up phosphate quickly (3-4 days) and to be swapped out often. Its an easy and inexpensive method that I prefer over other options.

That's awesome Chris! Will this work for my other tanks also? I have a 40B that I've been manually dosing vinegar for about a year. How much would I start with the vinegar in 6g of ATO water? I estimate maybe 60g TWV

I'm working on running a shared sump for my frag tanks. I don't have an ATO for it yet, but soon. The estimate for TWV on those is about 75g. Can this method be used without ever having dosed vinegar?

I just tested awhile ago. Here's the params: PO4 @ .0735 (doser set at 15/1:30) NO3 @ 2.5ppm (Salifert)
dKh @ 8.68 (hanna meter) and CA @ 420

Also tested the 40B: PO4 @ .098 and NO3 @ 2.5ppm Alk @ 8.5 and CA still high @ 475 Need to test the frag tanks but I'm wanting to wait until I get the shared sump done. Is that a good enough excuse?! LOL

 

[terri_ann]

Just checking back :0) I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this?... I had what was a red turf algae and I finally got rid rid of it however what I have found under it is a mystery to me. It is in my 135g tank and it appears to look like a thick coating of cyano? It is a deep/dark red color and has almost a velvet feeling to it. It is not slimey nor does it have bubbles, etc. It does spread but very slowly as it's on some frag plugs and the newer rock I added awhile back. The snails ate it for awhile but have since stopped from what I can tell. In the few places where the snails have cleared it off the rock, there is no coralline algae showing :9( Does anyone have an idea what it might be? Will it disappear after time from dosing the LaCl and vinegar? If yes, is there a way that I can get the coralline to grow much heavier so that it doesn't disappear?

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Using the formula is fairly easy. It's just .4ml per gal a day on the low side. For example 40 gals would be (.4*40=16ml/day). So you have 16ml per day to dose in a 40 gal tank.

The ATO idea is a good short term solution but you will want to eventually get yourself a dedicated doser for the vinegar regimen. Over time your ATO will require cleaning because bacteria will gradually start growing in there. I only mentioned the ATO as a way to get you going with what you have now. If you don't want to buy another doser at this time you may want to consider using your magnesium doser and just dose magnesium manually. Just a thought.

 

[terri_ann]

Thank you so very, very much Chris! I will start the 40B tomorrow! This ATO method is great! It saves me a lot of time besides ensuring that I don't forget to manually dose :0)

Now, how about some GREAT NEWS?! NO BRAIN SURGERY at this time!! I will have at least a 5 month delay :0) I'm still having to undergo testing but a brain MRI won't happen until April! OH HAPPY DAY!!! The tumor is located on a major vein and there's a risk of bleeding (to death) so if I have to have surgery, they will not be able to take all of the tumor (so I don't bleed to death). If I was 20 or 30 years old, I'd be having surgery shortly...there's a benefit to being old! LOL

 

[insomniac2k2]

Eek Terri! I was just checking in, and I saw your post about the tumor. Scary stuff :/ I'm rooting for you on this ugly topic!

On a better topic. I hope you have nice thanksgiving not thinking about your fish or tumor

Smiles and laughter are powerful medicine.

 

[terri_ann]

Eek Terri! I was just checking in, and I saw your post about the tumor. Scary stuff :/ I'm rooting for you on this ugly topic!

On a better topic. I hope you have nice thanksgiving not thinking about your fish or tumor

Smiles and laughter are powerful medicine.

EEK is right Insomniac :lolspin: I'm fine though, minus all the crazy symptoms I'm having. Thank God for Chris, you, and all the others here! I can't say it often enough but everyone has been wonderful and helpful! Thank you Guys!!:bounce2:

Not thinking of the tumor but ALWAYS the fish, corals and tanks! I
m tank sitting a Nano (6g) right now for an ISU kid (18yrs old) Trying to help him, his fish and corals out PO4 and NO3 at 50 and dKh at 12.5! Now THAT'S an EEK!!:facepalm: This keeps me out of my tanks...for better or worse...haven't decided yet:twitch:

Happy Thanksgiving and I'm waiting for more pics of that new tank!!:hammer:

 

[terri_ann]

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!:celeb3: I am SO VERY THANKFUL for all of you and the help, support and encouragement you have given to me over the past months! THANK YOU!!:bounce1::bounce3::bounce2::love1:

 

[terri_ann]

I have NEVER seen the filter sock in the DT as dirty as it was yesterday! I think the bacteria are going to town...YAY!!

Got the vinegar in the 40B ATO container yesterday. Will see how that tank responds ;0)

 

[terri_ann]

I need to test for PO4 but won't happen before tomorrow or Thursday. It has been holding at .06 - .07 so that's good. Will have to see though... Will also test for NO3, ALk and CA. Haven't done a WC and off the top of my head, can't remember when it was. Today had a series of steroid shots in my left shoulder and neck...Nothing new for me, just a routine thing for bad discs in the neck and arthritis. Tomorrow is Christmas shopping and Thursday is the 3hr MRI of the entire spine. Keeping my fingers crossed that no tumors are found.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! Oh, we could use action in this thread guys! Everyone is busy...I know :0)

 

[terri_ann]

I plan to test this afternoon and will post afterwards ;0)

 

[terri_ann]

Ever feel like you are talking to yourself?!:blown:

I did get the testing done. I ended up switching out the sediment filter...again. It wasn't real dark in color like the last time but it was slimey. I'm guessing from the bacteria sue to the high amount of vinegar I'm dosing. It wasn't flowing again at the skimmer/sump outlet. Don't know when it began to just drip in the sump:sad2: The filter only lasted about 2weeks but I'm guessing that if the bacteria level went down, the filter still would have been okay.

Here's my results from testing on 12/8 at 1am: PO4 .147 Not good:sad2: I am running the reactor at 15 seconds every minute. I am going to try to remember to check the flow going into the sump daily as I'm unsure why the level isn't going lower. I am also going to watch every day that the solution drips from the doser down to the line where it enters the tubing to the reaction chamber. I have lost several SPS's, I believe at least in part, from the elevated PO4 over these months.

The good part, as there always should be one, is the NO3 is at 2ppm. If my records are correct in my log, I haven't done a WC since November 15th. The alk is 8.7 and CA is still high at 490. I don't have a lot of coralline algae and with losing SPS's and the others appear not to be growing, I can believe that the CA is not be used much or at all. Hopefully I can this PO4 down and the corals back on track!

Have a good week!