Learning from experience

[KafudaFish]

Joao it is interesting to hear from reefers from different parts of the world and their view on this. I am always curious as to the "standard" in their part of the world.
Yes we live in a society that has to have everything fast and 10 minutes ago. Many treat their tanks no differently. As soon as a tank is "finished" people usually change tanks. There is nothing wrong with that just wonder why so many of us strive to achieve a natural situation only to change it once it has been reached.
Even here people post pics of their tanks from all over the world and within a few replies someone is telling them beautiful tank but they cannot do that and they won't have a successful tank without item X.

So where is the hobby headed? Continued technology or more biology. Both have their place here but there should be a balance. It is up to the reefer to decide if they want to keep equipment or livestock.

 

[WarrenG]

I've seen schools of hippo tangs in Fiji-literally hundreds of them together. 0-15 feet below the surface, in fairly turbulent water, mostly staying to one smallis area. Naso tangs swim a lot, and in large areas (an acre or more), and easily get to a foot long. They're like triggers, groupers, full-size angelfish and full-size butterflys.

Flame angels, royal grammas, anthias and damsels, clownfish, gobies, jawfish, many of the small wrasses, small eels... live in fairly small areas in the wild.

 

[Joao Monteiro]

Kafuda,

Nowadays, "standard" here is close to what it is there.

I would say that the major difference is the power/amount of lights used.
It may have to do with the cost of electricity (generaly more expensive in Europe), but - at least her in Portugal - we have been reducing our W. Perhaps because of the cost, we´ve been reading a lot and testing about the "saturation point".
In MH (HQI) we normally use 150w or 250w. Only in very deep tanks (90cms / 35+ inc) you see 400w lamps. I don´t know any tank here (Appart from National Oceanarium) with 1000w halids.
We have also been increasingly using T5´s. Their maximum is 80w per tube and there are some good examples of deep tanks (30inc+ deep) only with T5´s and excellent corals. SPS´s in the bottom.
Aren´t you just expending too much money buying not needed "superpower"lamps ?

As regards the future, of course you need a balance between technology and biology. The problem is when because of better tecnhology we get careless/forget about biology.

WarrenG,
Fishes do have amazing adaptability skills. But they take some generations to adjust.

In 1995 in Male, Maldives, when I arrived for my honeymoon I saw hundreds of Zanclus picking under the boats at the docks. Hundreds. Oil all over the place and they looked so happy...
But even if I had a Zanclus (loved to, but still need to learn more before trying) I would never put some oil in my tank.

 

[Fredfish]

Where is the hobby heading? More biology. The technology has been stable for a number of years now. While there has been incremental improvement in existing technologies. nothing really new has appeared on the scene for a while now.

As an example look at what Joao is saying about lighting in Europe/Portugal. Looking at lighting saturation points and reducing the number of watts is pure biology.

Also look at the number of new foods introduced or becoming main stream in the hobby over the last 5-7 years. Oyster eggs, golden pearls, live phyto...

The number of people who can properly identify ivertibrates in their tanks and know something about their biology is exponentially more than it was 5 years ago.

The one area where I wish technology would improve things is in moving animals through the supply chain. We still loose an incredible amount of livestock before it arrives in the customers tank.

Biology could help here too. It continues to amaze me that virtually no retailers feed any of their corals.

Fred

 

[Frankysreef]

On the topic of feeding corals, it also does amaze me that so many reef tanks do not have adequate populations of food sources ( natural ), and the belief's that some reefers say that corals only need light and "fish feces" to survive...

It is my opinion that all corals sps and lps need some kind of zooplankton population in their tanks, soo many reefers do without some kind of refugium to generate populations of animals that can be swept into display areas for use as food for corals and fish. It should be mandatory to have some kind of fuge to successfully keep these animals for years.

I have just noticed hundreds of egg sacs in my fuge, which is sustaining large populations of copepods, amphipods and mysid shrimp, which offspring does get swept into the display, this could explain the rapid growth and health of my corals.

I have seen too many tanks in this hobby that are just bare and naked with white rocks and studded with sps corals, of course these are just my opinions, as with everything we are all still learning.

 

[Fredfish]

It is my opinion that all corals sps and lps need some kind of zooplankton population

This is a very interesting statement. The first interesting part is the first four words, which I am glad to see. Most of what we read in the hobby is opinion based on casual observation. Many people state their opinions as fact. A lot of this is probably indvertant, but the effect is the same.

The second part is "all corals". Other than "all corals need salt water" and "all corals are not the same" this phrase should never be used.

From what little we know about feeding in corals, different corals have different requirements for food. Some rely on Disolved organics and detritus (xenia discosoma), some on phytoplankton (some gorgonians) some on zooplankton.

If you were to re-phrase that and say "All tanks need a good population of zooplankton as well as other foods because we don't really know what most corals feed on" I would agree with you. This is both my opinion and the opinion of people such as Eric Borneman, who is far more qualified than I to speak to this subject.

As an example of how little we know about specific corals and their feeding habits, look at this thread on Dendronepthya. Even with properly trained scientists studying the matter, we still have no clue.

Just to show how complicated foods and feeding can be, several years ago I read a thread by Eric where he discussed water flow and how it affected feeding responses and prey capture. My understanding is that even if you have appropriate foods, if you do not have something approaching the proper flow, your corals may not feed anyway.

Fred

 

[Frankysreef]

I agree with your rewording

 

[Paul B]

if you do not have something approaching the proper flow, your corals may not feed anyway.

"In My Opinion" these are not the only requirments that some corals need to feed. Some only feed at night and many need the proper size and of course type of food. My candycane corals have never been fed, I have them about four years. As of now, they do not look too good but I doubt it is from a lack of feeding that would have shown up long ago. One were under my bubble coral one night after it had toppled on to it and the other one was up side down for a weekend while I was away. So this coral anyway may not have to be fed directly but they look better with feeding. I rarely feed my bubble coral but it does look better when I do. The sea is just chock full of plankton and I am sure there is enough going by that a coral can wait until the correct food of the right size floats by.
You are correct we should always add "In my opinion"
Paul

 

[Frankysreef]

That is why I do that.... Everyone's tank is different to some degree and it seems there is always different ways to do the same things in this hobby.

So to be judgemental and to say "this" is the only way to do things in this hobby is wrong. Other than the obvious....

 

[KafudaFish]

As with anything whenever anyone states, "There is only one way to do this, my way." they are usually trying to sell something. Rarely is there one way to accomplish a goal or to explain a situation. Another character the "successful" hobbist shares is the willingness to listen to others, pick out the useful information and discard the rest.

 

[Frankysreef]

Speaking of vendors, isnt it interesting of the cost of some of the equipment in this hobby?
Probably 80-90% of the equipment in this hobby can be made my the hobbiest themselves...
The beautiful homemade skimmers, the ca reactors ( I made mine from parts ), sumps ( made mine out of a 60 gal scratched tank ), fuges, the MJ mod that acts like a tunze, the homemade auto top off systems ( mine cost 16 dollars in parts and is still working like a champ ).

I just wonder sometimes why these vendors charge soo much for pieces of acrylic?

Without being a tinkerer and having some modest skill with wordworking, electronics, and plumbing, this hobby would be VERY expensive for me...

Tinkering around is part of the fun for me....But I'll probably never be able to make a pump

Like the "tunze osmolator" $174.95, my model cost $16 in parts and about an hour to make. I have one float switch instead of 2... Same basic componets too...1000 % markup for the vendor... just cause it is a tunze.

Some food for thought.

 

[Paul B]

I agree, this is a hobby and even though I could buy anything I need I would rather build it. My skimmer, venturi, lights, fuge, overflows, auto fillers, autofeeders, and much of my rock is homemade. I even built my first ozonizer. I like my homebuilt equipment better and I am very proud of it. I feel that anyone could buy something but there is no skill in that, except maybe that you have a job and you could afford it. I always tell people that no one has ever touched my house, car, appliances or boat.
And as long as I am able to , they never will.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[KafudaFish]

How ironic. I just came in from making a homemade rock wall using egg crate and portland cement. I had left overs so I made a few small rocks. This is going into a 2.5 gallon aquarium. Why? Just to see if it would work. It will look crappy for the next 5 months but once it fills in and colors up no one will know. I will use a few rubble rocks and will be good to go. I have not DIY everything but I have spent less on my 95 gallon than some have on their nano tanks. I don't see anything wrong with that but I would rather keep livestock than equipment.

 

[JamesJR]

I have found this to be an intersting post. I am young but I have been keeping saltwater fish since I was about 10. I remember reading Robert Straughn's book on saltwater aquarium keeping and much of what he says still applies today. he swore by live rock and good fluorescent lighting and it worked well enough for him. I went by his book for my first aquarium and I must say it actually worked. I had nothing but a few damsels and clowns but they lived just fine. Graham F. Cox wrote another book in the late 60s that I came across at the library and Much of it still applies today.
Anyways, I think that really only a blend of technology and nature are what makes a reef aquarium what we have today. What we are trying to emulate is nature in itself but keeping these creatures in glass boxes thousands of miles from their habitats is entirely unnatural in and of itself. I think that we have to continuously use both of these concepts and look at things from a particular perspective when it is appropriate. I mean it is the scientific technical aspect that gave us the ability to propogate the mutitudes of corals that we have today or to keep fish that ten years ago most people would tell you would just end up dead in a few weeks.
This emphasis on technology is not in of itself a bad thing but to me is only part of the story. Yes we need strong skimmers and good circulation to maintain good water quality, etc. but this assumption that this is the real trick to keeping an aquarium is rather superficial and ignores the observational and aesthetic approach to keeping a reef aquarium. What I continuosly see is people having reef tanks crammed with as many species of coral they can squeeze into their tanks instead of looking to allow their corals to grow larger and overtime fill in the space with their growth. The tank of Richard Harker was amazing to me because his approach was so differant from what I had ever seen. he used the technology, but his tank is huge but there are not many coral species or fish for that matter. It is impressive in the massive size of his corals. This attention to detail is reflective of someone who knows the ecology of his specimens very well and put a lot of time and carefull planning to his aquarium

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/aquarium.htm

Anyways, I think the approach is to emulate nature as closely as possible by whatever means works best. Let the corals and fish speak for themselves.

 

[Paul B]

We obviousely need technology in this hobby, I am typing on my technologicically advanced computer right now. I am just worried when I read about people spending thousands of dollars on technology to start a reef and none of that money is going into books. Unfortunately when I started I would also buy a fish just because it was good looking, most of them died because I couldn't supply the correct foods or diden't know what the fish was supposed to eat. In my defense, in those days no one else knew what they are either. One of my first fish was a clown grouper, very hard fish to keep and they get very large. I could keep one now (although I don't want to) but the point is that if I had known I would not have bought that fish. My first few copperband butterflies and moorish Idols fared no better, not I learned how to take care of these fish. Even though I have always been an avid reader, there was no correct information. Today there is no excuse, no one should buy a fish if you can't or won't take care of it. There are so many posts that start "does anyone know what to feed a _______." You should find that out before you buy the thing. A skimmer, ozonizer, or calcium chamber will not help you here.
Paul

 

[Frankysreef]

My tank is crammed with corals But I grew them all from frags and gave them adequate spacing!

Corals just grow very fast given favorable conditions.. I have experienced 1/8-1/4 inch per mo sometimes

 

[Frankysreef]

look at my avatar, all large mature colonies most no more than a year old. The yellow millepora on the bottom is 14-15 inches wide.

But also look at corals in the wild they are all clamoring and growing all over each other in a lot of the pictures I see.... Especially the reef flats in FIJI

 

[Paul B]

Frank you are correct about the corals on a reef growing all over each other but as you can see in the bottom picture I took in Bora Bora there is still plenty of room. Besides sweeper tentacles in LPS, SPS exude chemicals to keep corals from crowding them out. That is a little understood area in this hobby. It is also the reason some corals grow in someones tank and not in someone elses tank. My reef is now in a gorgonian phase, they are all over the place. Some of my LPS shrank and some of them grew. Sometimes the mushrooms look like elephant ears and sometimes they shrink to where I can hardly find them.
You can't see these phases unless your reef is a few years old.
Frank your reef looks great and it is obvious healthy and well taken care of.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Frankysreef]

I have discovered that hairy mushrooms kill sps...exude chemicals that have actually killed a pocillopora colony, and started killing an oxypora until I moved it...

I spent a week eradicating most of them... but it is now a pest that is coming back. UGH

Sometimes sps are ok touching each other they kinda grow into each other, but milleporas are aggressive and will kill other sps to take over the spot.

I have a digitata that has grown over a capricornus, a blue acropora that has grown around a acro formosa..

Sometimes they kill off only sections while the rest of the coral lives on, or sometimes I get STN, then I have to move everything around.

I moved some rocks around once disturbed the flow of a huge millepora that I have and it RTN'd on my in days...

My galaxea stung my pink birdsnest and it rtn'd in days too,...

Saved them all by fragging... Fun Fun Fun

 

[Frankysreef]

better photo

better photo