Led Lighting, really reef adequate?

[Johnseye]

The only savings for me are in bulb replacements and the lack of a need to run a chiller.

So why am I still such a big fan of LED's? Simple..... controllability and customization. LED's allow this like no other light source (arguably also the biggest down side and the biggest complaint of some LED haters who want a plug-and-play stsyem).

Savings in bulbs and chiller costs/space are huge savings.

I really think people haven't figured out how to do LED right. Looking for cost savings in the electric bill for the light alone isn't the only factor and doesn't need to be the sole driver.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I really think people haven't figured out how to do LED right.

There's plenty of evidence of that in this thread alone! There are so many variables to consider with LEDs unlike MH. A major consideration is the financial one, that is why it is so important to research exactly what you need when you're thinking of using LEDs, it's too easy to make the mistake of thinking 'I ran one 150W MH light so I'll buy one Hydra52'; that's a $700 outlay here in Australia....6 months later when your corals growth isn't sufficient you're faced with two choices, buy more fixtures at $700 each or go back to MH. There is a wealth of experience here and the advice I've taken and would pass on is to look at the successful LED lit reef blogs and see what LEDs they are running and how many fixtures they are using.

 

[alton]

MH is plug and play. LED is not. I'm not trying to troubleshoot your tank. I'm just questioning your statement that two Radion 3 pros are not enough on a 48x24x24 tank. That's what I have and I see no issues with the amount of light. I am using the wide angle lenses and running my lights at about 40%.

It can be if you use BML 12K, 14K, or 20K. The website tells you PAR levels and how many lights you will need for certain sized tanks. For most LED users they want that power to control the color and sometimes that gets them in trouble.

 

[Johnseye]

It can be if you use BML 12K, 14K, or 20K. The website tells you PAR levels and how many lights you will need for certain sized tanks. For most LED users they want that power to control the color and sometimes that gets them in trouble.

I started with BML 20k. They are dimmable and they now have a fixture which can change spectrum. When I bought my fixtures from them they said I needed 2. That was a year ago. Now when I go on their site it says I need 3 for high light and they've added an ultra high which is 5 strips. That tells me a lot.

 

[amcvay1979]

My LFS guy runs nothing but Hydra 52's and I've seen pics of his all SPS tanks, crazy growth and color. He convinced me to buy 52's and I have 2 fixtures over my 150 and it's more than enough light and I'm running mine at 60% each, my zoa's and other colony polyps on the bottom are growing like weeds and spreading, my dunkins are doubling every 2 months and everything is doing really well. I only have 3 SPS corals, all are up high and they're growing well. I think it mostly comes down to aquascape and placing the right corals in the right places with LED's.

So the answer is Yes they will grow corals, even SPS but with LED fixtures such as the 52's and Radions you will definitely need to tweak your settings a lot more and find that sweet spot to both grow and get good coloration out of corals. MH's are probably much simpler...plug and play, but LED's are more than capable of growing corals.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I think it mostly comes down to aquascape and placing the right corals in the right places with LED's.

As with all lighting your coral placement is important, I guess this is more even more important if you're not running enough fixtures. I had three 52s over my 150 and say is wasn't enough, you have two and say it's plenty....so what's making the difference?
You're right about settings, another way to completely get LEDs wrong is to use random settings that look 'pretty' but are not found in nature, in my case I was using the Apex presets for 10k, 14k and 20k. My acropora was growing pretty well in places, much slower in others, and in a couple of spots they were going pale due to too much light, however generally I was satisfied with my setup, I was getting good encrustation of frags over rocks and for a 6 month old system I was pretty happy.
It's only after borrowing a quantum meter I realised I had problems, areas of the tank where I eventually wanted coral to grow into had very little light, areas directly below the fixtures were getting fantastic PAR. I spoke to the owner of my LFS and he showed me an acropora in their display tank that they got from a customer running Radions, it had the strangest growth pattern, very little branching out but very close branches and growth directly upwards. They guy who had owned it changed to MH but it was too late for this coral so he gave it away as he didn't like the shape.
So.....I'd always suggest getting PAR readings if you're running LEDs, you may think you're seeing enough light, but long term effects could be very different to initial growth as Wazzel said about his shading issues.
After changing to an LED/T5 hybrid I took PAR readings again and have great PAR in all areas, no aquascape change, no strange coral placement, T5s give the spread I wanted....of course I could have achieved this by adding more fixtures to my initial 3 Hydra52s too.

 

[rodneyri]

Im playing with LED's again, this time with the Hyrda52's so will see how this goes with my SPS tank. I tend to agree with coverage, currently have 4 units over my 7' tank - planning to add another 2 units to give me front to back and tip to tip coverage, but thats cause it will have acro packed throughout the tank.

Just this weekend I was running the lights in a single row and flipped them to run parallel - same setting, same light height, PAR went from 350 to 450 from the overlap of light. Looks heaps brighter and funny enough crisper with the lights this way - shimmer looks like halide rays which is neat. With this config im getting even 450 PAR across the main rock work level with whites at 45% only. 250 PAR at the front glass on the sand...pretty good even coverage.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Im playing with LED's again, this time with the Hyrda52's so will see how this goes with my SPS tank. I tend to agree with coverage, currently have 4 units over my 7' tank - planning to add another 2 units to give me front to back and tip to tip coverage, but thats cause it will have acro packed throughout the tank.

Just this weekend I was running the lights in a single row and flipped them to run parallel - same setting, same light height, PAR went from 350 to 450 from the overlap of light. Looks heaps brighter and funny enough crisper with the lights this way - shimmer looks like halide rays which is neat. With this config im getting even 450 PAR across the main rock work level with whites at 45% only. 250 PAR at the front glass on the sand...pretty good even coverage.

That's looking awesome mate, great work. Interesting post for me because that was my other option, to flip the lights into parallel and buy more fixtures. Good to see better PAR readings across the tank. Hydra52s are great lights, I had no dramas with them apart from the light spread, but that's a simple fix if you don't mind spending the cash.

 

[rodneyri]

Id say you could have got away with 4 fixtures, my rock work is pretty much 1500 long and the 4 Hydra spaced at 300mm centre to centre gives solid coverage. I may try 350mm spacing and measure PAR again.

 

[amcvay1979]

I should have clarified my 150 is a 150 tall, only 4 feet long. Plenty of light from 2 hydra 52's

 

[alton]

I started with BML 20k. They are dimmable and they now have a fixture which can change spectrum. When I bought my fixtures from them they said I needed 2. That was a year ago. Now when I go on their site it says I need 3 for high light and they've added an ultra high which is 5 strips. That tells me a lot.

Not sure why someone told you two, 24" tank requires 3. I have no idea what the 5 is for? (Maybe a tanning bed) I use two regular 6' 14K on my 300DD, and during the summer I run my MH only 3 hours a day with the BML's running 10 to 12 hours. I have never lost a coral, and the growth has not really slowed that much. I use the manual dimmers turned to about 85% using a meter. I use 1 - 20K XB on my 65 in my office and my softies look and are doing very well. I had a 250w MH, but since I could no longer control the thermostat in my office, I had to make a switch. I do have one small Acro, but it is just sitting there. The best part with it turned down, it is only drawing 50 watts.
If you want to stretch the amount of LEDS you are using get a meter, find the hot and dead spots in your tank and place your corals in those sweet spots.

 

[Johnseye]

Not sure why someone told you two, 24" tank requires 3. I have no idea what the 5 is for? (Maybe a tanning bed) I use two regular 6' 14K on my 300DD, and during the summer I run my MH only 3 hours a day with the BML's running 10 to 12 hours. I have never lost a coral, and the growth has not really slowed that much. I use the manual dimmers turned to about 85% using a meter. I use 1 - 20K XB on my 65 in my office and my softies look and are doing very well. I had a 250w MH, but since I could no longer control the thermostat in my office, I had to make a switch. I do have one small Acro, but it is just sitting there. The best part with it turned down, it is only drawing 50 watts.
If you want to stretch the amount of LEDS you are using get a meter, find the hot and dead spots in your tank and place your corals in those sweet spots.

Before I bought the lights I spoke with them and it was 2. They also have a tool on their site which makes a recommendation based on dimensions. That tool now says 3 or 5. What concerns me about the BMLs is the stated par at depths.

Your MH probably plays a big part in your system. I am trying Radions now. I like the control of variables.

 

[Hitch08]

I know that I am going to be embarrassed about this, but...

Can you post a link to the tool on Ecotech's site regarding how many lights/fixtures for certain sized tanks? I can't find it.

 

[mr9iron]

Im playing with LED's again, this time with the Hyrda52's so will see how this goes with my SPS tank. I tend to agree with coverage, currently have 4 units over my 7' tank - planning to add another 2 units to give me front to back and tip to tip coverage, but thats cause it will have acro packed throughout the tank.

Just this weekend I was running the lights in a single row and flipped them to run parallel - same setting, same light height, PAR went from 350 to 450 from the overlap of light. Looks heaps brighter and funny enough crisper with the lights this way - shimmer looks like halide rays which is neat. With this config im getting even 450 PAR across the main rock work level with whites at 45% only. 250 PAR at the front glass on the sand...pretty good even coverage.

Absolutely beautiful aquascape. How did you build it, and do you have pictures of the build?

 

[rodneyri]

here you go link to how I build the rock work, in my TJ

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2097957&page=13

 

[TylerHaworth]

There is zero argument that T5 is sufficient.

There is zero argument that Halides are sufficient.

There are hundreds of arguments regarding LED's sufficiency and proper application.

For me the choice is easy... This hobby is tough enough as is, why make it harder?

 

[dillct]

It's pointless to talk about lighting without also mentioning water quality. Provided enough coverage and sufficient nutrients are present, leds work just fine. It's become way too easy to strip one's tank of nutrients with pellets, gfo, etc. Combine that with high intensity lighting (led/halide/T5) you're going to have problems. Just my opinion, by I think that's why most people fail with leds.

 

[Perth_reefer]

There is zero argument that T5 is sufficient.

There is zero argument that Halides are sufficient.

There are hundreds of arguments regarding LED's sufficiency and proper application.

For me the choice is easy... This hobby is tough enough as is, why make it harder?

Yet LEDs do work because there are hundreds of examples of them working. The problem is user error not the fixtures. The three areas that I'd say people fall down is...

Not using enough fixtures for sufficient light spread
Not using settings that are sufficient for growth and colouration
Not using decent quality fixtures

If people research the requirements of their specific tank and corals then they can definitely have an amazing reef grown by corals. Unfortunately some people seem to think that 1 x MH = 1 x LED fixture despite the hundreds of posts on here stating that you need more LED fixtures than MH fixtures to cover a tank.

 

[TylerHaworth]

Yet LEDs do work because there are hundreds of examples of them working. The problem is user error not the fixtures. The three areas that I'd say people fall down is...

Not using enough fixtures for sufficient light spread
Not using settings that are sufficient for growth and colouration
Not using decent quality fixtures

If people research the requirements of their specific tank and corals then they can definitely have an amazing reef grown by corals. Unfortunately some people seem to think that 1 x MH = 1 x LED fixture despite the hundreds of posts on here stating that you need more LED fixtures than MH fixtures to cover a tank.

My point exactly.

An ATI fixture with Blue Plus and Coral Plus removes lighting as a variable.

250w Radiums remove lighting as a variable.

When you show me an LED setup that comes with that certainty out of the box at a reasonable price point, I'll buy you one.

 

[Perth_reefer]

My point exactly.

An ATI fixture with Blue Plus and Coral Plus removes lighting as a variable.

250w Radiums remove lighting as a variable.

When you show me an LED setup that comes with that certainty out of the box, I'll buy you one.

But half the reason people buy LEDs is the customisation, not for plug and play. Being able to set your lights to ramp up and down, switching between colour spectrums etc, all benefits of LED.
I used to run my Hydra 52s at 10k in the early morning, moving into 14k during the day and 20k late afternoon, then ramping down into moonlights.
When you show me a MH fixture that can do that I'll buy you one