LED Optics Question.

wisewendell

New member
I have a 150 lit with a DIY LED fixture that looks like this. (My actual tank) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTAdWjHG29g (please excuse the lame accent at the beginning of the video)
I am using SatisLed's which have 120 degree optics with no lens/optics.
Question is, Would I get higher light output without spotlighting if I switched to 90 degree or even 60 degree optics? Would like to get more intense light without having to add to the fixture, so any and all input would be appreciated.
Thanks much,
Wendell
 
I took a lux reading of my royal blue crees with 80*optics at 4" from the led and got a reading of 1200 then I took a reading of the same led with a 40* optic and at 10" I got a reading of 3900. The lux meter was set on 10x the reading some multiply my reading by 10. The 40*optic had even coverage on my hand around 6". A 60" optic would work great for you. I will be replacing most of my 80*optics with 60* very soon.

Hope that helps.
 
I think you will be ok with 60. But if it is critical they mix at the top go with 80s. I would imagine that at 8 the 60 would mix at least 4 inches below the surface.

But what is the spacing between LEDs. They look awfully close so probably 60s.
 
Although optics will concentrate the light and thus increase the PAR at any given spot within the cone, it is not increasing the intensity of the light itself. Duh! My point is, optics are not giving you anything but focus. If you shrink the angle of the light emmision, you will need more LEDs to cover the same area. Why not just cluster the LEDs, use no optics and create a better overlap between light points. You may end up using more LEDs, but you will save on the optics and avoid getting that 'spot-light' effect.
 
Yes and no IMO. XP-G have a spread of 125 degrees. So if the LED is up 6 inches it will cover an area of about 14 inches. Now for even coverage put that LED 2 inches from the edge of the tank an 5 inches of light are lost. Sorry my arc math is not good enough to get a percentage of light out side the tank, but you see you loose an awful lot of light. The same thing with a 60 degree lens is 6 inch circle or only one outside the tank.

So IMHO lenses don't help in the middle the help on the edge where there is not overlap. So you want as tight an optic as you can get such that it mixes at the surface.
 
Yes and no IMO. XP-G have a spread of 125 degrees. So if the LED is up 6 inches it will cover an area of about 14 inches. Now for even coverage put that LED 2 inches from the edge of the tank an 5 inches of light are lost. Sorry my arc math is not good enough to get a percentage of light out side the tank, but you see you loose an awful lot of light. The same thing with a 60 degree lens is 6 inch circle or only one outside the tank.

So IMHO lenses don't help in the middle the help on the edge where there is not overlap. So you want as tight an optic as you can get such that it mixes at the surface.

OK, I do know a bit about math and refraction, etc. Here is something interesting: consider that a typical optic has an efficiency of 85% or so (most are less efficient), as they do loose a bit of the light that is fed into them. We have learned to accept this. Now, when light hits the surface of the water, it is directly compressed to a narrower cone via refraction, as the refraction index of water is about 1.33 instead of 1.00 (air). Now, when the light actually hits the glass, with an index of 1.46, most of it is actually reflected back into the inside, instead of passing through. In the end, 90% of the light entering at the surface, with the lamp hanging 6" over the water surface, will remain in the tank. A loss of 10%. No optic can match that effciency.

In essence, optics are not as good a solution as we would like to think. In extremely deep tanks, they will be of use, but under 1m depth, they are only costing us money. The key to success is clustering your leds and hanging them close to the water along the middle axis of your tank.
 
Well my refraction isn't very good either. But consider this: at some angle any light hitting the surface of the water will be reflected out. Do you know this angle? If is greater than 62.5 (0 vertical, 90 horizontal), you can ignore the rest. How much light are we loosing because of this?

True some is reflected by the glass, but in my example I had never even reached the glass. This was all at the top of the tank.
 
Well my refraction isn't very good either. But consider this: at some angle any light hitting the surface of the water will be reflected out. Do you know this angle? If is greater than 62.5 (0 vertical, 90 horizontal), you can ignore the rest. How much light are we loosing because of this?

True some is reflected by the glass, but in my example I had never even reached the glass. This was all at the top of the tank.

You're quite right, the water will reflect a portion of the light upon contact, but this will be the same equation regardless of the source, thus it will nul in the final result.

Any light source we use has certain advantages and disadvantages. I personally prefer a single light source, verses the complete coverage we get with T5s. In principle, both illuminate the tank, but with different optical effect. Most of the led builds and many of the commercial products work with lensed light over a lamp matrix that gives more of a T5 effect. I've even seen the other extreme where led lamps were clustered with a reflector-typ effect, to minimize spill (MH effect). Struck me as nice looking, but unnecessary.

I feel the same with optics. They have an interesting effect and may be usefull for certain applications, but I can't see them as a requirement, more of a hinderness (causing ppor spectral mix) and extra expense. We were all a bit snow-balled by diy fixtures using optics and hung 2ft over the water or more. The question is, why! I think this may have come from the first applications, where leds were not powerful enough for a tank over 12" deep without some help or used in too small a quantity. This is no longer the case (if it ever was). Still, during this last year I've seen some very nice and effective lightings done without optics. Then I purchased the Vertex Illumina, which uses no optics, and I realized what a waste they are. It was a bit of realizing how complicated we were traing to make everything, when it can be kept fine and relatively simple (the Illumina is a bit more than just a lamp. Loving it!)

In any case, I find it is time to reconsider many of the 'rules' that have been bandied about concerning leds and optics, PAR, PUR, etc. Especially before they get written in stone, despite their inaccuracy.

just some thoughts...
 
but this will be the same equation regardless of the source
I don't think this quite true. Correct me if I am wrong. A laser directed directly into the water would not have any reflected light. The angle if incidence is to small. If we assume an angle of incidence of 30 degrees (anyone know the real number) and ideal cone of light (equal distribution equal spread, not true but). Then a 60 degree lens would have not loss light since all light striking the surface is less than 30 degrees. Where as the 125 degree bare LED would. If my number above were correct the 125 has about a 7 inch radius the 60 about 3. Lets assume 1 par per square inch The light entering would be related to pir^2 or 3.14*3*3 = 28.3 the total would be 3.14*7*7=153.9. More than 80% is reflected. Now there are a lot of false physic statements here to try and make explaining it easier, but I believe a lens will have less reflected light from the surface of the water.
 
I don't think this quite true. Correct me if I am wrong. A laser directed directly into the water would not have any reflected light. The angle if incidence is to small. If we assume an angle of incidence of 30 degrees (anyone know the real number) and ideal cone of light (equal distribution equal spread, not true but). Then a 60 degree lens would have not loss light since all light striking the surface is less than 30 degrees. Where as the 125 degree bare LED would. If my number above were correct the 125 has about a 7 inch radius the 60 about 3. Lets assume 1 par per square inch The light entering would be related to pir^2 or 3.14*3*3 = 28.3 the total would be 3.14*7*7=153.9. More than 80% is reflected. Now there are a lot of false physic statements here to try and make explaining it easier, but I believe a lens will have less reflected light from the surface of the water.


Ha! I really had to laugh. One of the best comebacks I've read! I wasn't planing on using lasers, were you? Any surface would have some reflective qualities and, yes, even a laser would be reflected, after all, that is what a laser show is all about, reflection and refraction. With such a pure light source, calculation of reflective surfaces would probably be easier, come to think of it. Not really my area. In principle, if there is no angle of incidence, <90°, laser light should not be reflected by a transparent substance. In the real world, I can't see it happening. We are not perfect enough. Then, water is a flowing surface, which means reflection can't be avoided, but may be possible to equalize (+ and - angles of incidence), still, one is splitting hairs.

As you noted, if the light arrives at the surface of the lens (optic), with a much smaller angle than the lens, then the light cannot be appreciably further bundled (ok, some of this would have to do with the lens type and quality). This wouldn't be the case for our tanks, would it? But seriously, light being bundled by an optic will always loose some of its intensity, if you want to split hairs, simply due to the reality of the materials involved. Then the loss through the angle would be additional. Both of these factors are what manufactures list as transmission efficiency. After this loss, you will still have the loss associated with entering the water and refracting/reflecting from the glass.

Again, we come back to what are we attempting with our leds. Illuminate an aquarium as efficiently as possible...plus a bit of aesthetic. Unless you are aiming for columns of light dancing upon the rockery, I think we can chuck the lenses and imitate a single light source by clustering the leds. Of course, spotlighting special corals would be cool, although the coral may not like it. I find it very easy to over-light (photoinhibition) corals with leds. Hmmm. Where does this leave us?

I'm off to read another good book
 
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