LED or Halide Question

[Snarkys]

IMHO halides/t5's if plug and play coral growth/health is the priority.

LED's if phone apps, dimming, on demand color adjustment, removing bulb replacement and reducing heat are the priority.

 

[ReefCowboy]

ATI Sunpower 8x54 - $585
8 bulbs - $160
432W
Total - $745 initial + $160/yr on bulbs
4 year cost - $1225

AI Hydra 52HD - $600
270W
Total - $1200
4 year cost - $1200

Electricity cost per month (10 hour cycle) @ $0.13kW
ATI - $16.85
AI - $10.53

Now this is assuming that 2x Hydra56 is enough for your tank which in reality it's not if you are doing SPS and eventually you will add a third Hydra 56 to get the even coverage that still won't be a match for the T5. Then there's of course the ability T5 has to color up corals which every LED fanboy will disagree with but I have yet to see the best LED tanks that can go toe to toe with the top T5 ones but that's neither here nor there.

Going with the proper amount of LED you will need for that tank you end up spending more money and still won't be cheaper after 4 years than the T5.

You forgot to add the Led guy will notice shadowing on his corals and will end up buying 2-4 T5's to add to their led fixture, making it now LEd and T5's costs...LOL

 

[Bpb]

Lol. Let's be honest folks. It's silly to make such an important decision based on saving $100 on a 5 year lifespan. Forget cost savings. If you're in the kind of tax bracket that you can afford an adequate number of top shelf LEDs or a top shelf t5ho fixture, why are we splitting hairs over a negligible long term cost difference. Even if it's a few hundred. So actively make the decision to skip a few dining experiences and there, your cost is made up. Pick the lighting tech you enjoy most based on your demands as mentioned above. If buying bulbs is a hassle, cell phone dimming and on demand color adjustments are top priority, get the LEDs, If you want to hang your lights, turn them on, and forget about them, get t5ho


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[Snarkys]

Perceived long term savings are so rarely realized. More offan than not there is an upgrade, exspantion, failure, unexpected cost or the tank comes down before long term savings are realized.

I think it is really hard these days for people to buy halides or t5 because they just seem outdated and uncool. However within the advanced reefer circles so many are going back that it's becoming a status symbol or retro cool to go back what just works rather than focus on cool technology.

LEDs can work and I'm having a lot of success personally but for a tightly packed sps tank there are a ton of concerns that need to be concidered and managed where Halides and t5's can be plugged in and done.

 

[Wazzel]

Well I have decided to go with two AI 52's.

Those are good lights.

 

[gus6464]

Gotta love the "LED is always cheaper" folks who rarely ever sit down and actually do the math to see if that is the case. Will MH end up costing more to run? Possibly but nowadays with T5 and LED the difference is barely there while the fact that T5 is superior is undeniable. Hell the cost on entry to a nice MH fixture can be sometimes half of the T5 and 1/3 of LED. If one sat down and actually did the 4-5 year total cost they would be very surprised.

 

[ktownhero]

+1
And it usually takes more LEDs to get the spread you need so the cost difference may be negligible. If you like endless tweaking LED is your ticket. If you want simple excellent growth and color then MH. If you complement either with T5 you're even better off. If you go with all 3 you can't go wrong.

Isn't one of the selling points of Kessil LEDs that they guarantee proper spectrum no matter which color temperature you choose? That sounds like the best of both worlds: visual customization without the risk of accidentally losing spectrum.

 

[Snarkys]

Isn't one of the selling points of Kessil LEDs that they guarantee proper spectrum no matter which color temperature you choose? That sounds like the best of both worlds: visual customization without the risk of accidentally losing spectrum.

I think he's talking more about the spread and how the light reaches the corals which is typically not a huge issue in LPS tanks but with medium to large branching corals which require a lot of light it can have a pretty dramatic impact.

With T5's and halides with large reflectors light enters the tank from a tremendous amount of angles and the tank is covered in a fairly even blanket of light which is almost impossible to shadow completely from a single angle. Result is the corals rarely shade themselves or each other and have natural at least appealing growth patterns.

A lot of SPS tank owners have found that LED's with small compact clusters of light sources emit light in a fairly narrow pattern which is very easily shadowed as the corals grow. They not only prevent light from reaching the coral next to them but also the center or opposing side of the coral itself. there is a lot of receding tissue and mortality associated with this.

LED manufactures recognize this as a real issue and the lenses are getting wider and wider every day which absolutely helps with this but these small clusters will never completely replace the even blanket of light you get from an array of t5's or halide with a large reflector. I think your best bet with LED models on a SPS tank is to space them 12-18" apart or fairly high over the tank which will get you close.

 

[Johnseye]

I think he's talking more about the spread and how the light reaches the corals which is typically not a huge issue in LPS tanks but with medium to large branching corals which require a lot of light it can have a pretty dramatic impact.

With T5's and halides with large reflectors light enters the tank from a tremendous amount of angles and the tank is covered in a fairly even blanket of light which is almost impossible to shadow completely from a single angle. Result is the corals rarely shade themselves or each other and have natural at least appealing growth patterns.

A lot of SPS tank owners have found that LED's with small compact clusters of light sources emit light in a fairly narrow pattern which is very easily shadowed as the corals grow. They not only prevent light from reaching the coral next to them but also the center or opposing side of the coral itself. there is a lot of receding tissue and mortality associated with this.

LED manufactures recognize this as a real issue and the lenses are getting wider and wider every day which absolutely helps with this but these small clusters will never completely replace the even blanket of light you get from an array of t5's or halide with a large reflector. I think your best bet with LED models on a SPS tank is to space them 12-18" apart or fairly high over the tank which will get you close.

Exactly

Isn't one of the selling points of Kessil LEDs that they guarantee proper spectrum no matter which color temperature you choose? That sounds like the best of both worlds: visual customization without the risk of accidentally losing spectrum.

Although I was talking about what Snarkys said, I'll comment. I don't know what guarantee proper spectrum means. Proper spectrum for what? Perfect growth of all corals? Some spectrums are better for growth and some for highlighting fluorescence. I don't think you can select any spectrum profile with LED and be guaranteed of anything. That said, I never ran Kessil, only Radion. Same principle though. I have heard the new Kessil lights offer a better spread. I would bet the next generation of Radion follow suit. Their wide angle lenses help some but not much. That's why you need more lights per SF than they recommend. Height does help with spread. You just can't get good height with a canopy.

The only things I liked about LEDs were the endless spectrum options to dial in fluorescence and the dusk dawn effects. My corals like MH so much more they showed me within two weeks.

 

[zeemofree]

I didn't read all of the posts but, The good LEDs allow you to change the spectrum without a bulb change and a couple pendants allow for an extra top down down viewing angle, halides are tread but the contain hazardous materials and can explode, the are super hot, too. I have a kessil 150 tuna blue and a solar flare on my fuge

 

[ktownhero]

Exactly

Although I was talking about what Snarkys said, I'll comment. I don't know what guarantee proper spectrum means. Proper spectrum for what? Perfect growth of all corals? Some spectrums are better for growth and some for highlighting fluorescence. I don't think you can select any spectrum profile with LED and be guaranteed of anything. That said, I never ran Kessil, only Radion. Same principle though. I have heard the new Kessil lights offer a better spread. I would bet the next generation of Radion follow suit. Their wide angle lenses help some but not much. That's why you need more lights per SF than they recommend. Height does help with spread. You just can't get good height with a canopy.

The only things I liked about LEDs were the endless spectrum options to dial in fluorescence and the dusk dawn effects. My corals like MH so much more they showed me within two weeks.

"Proper spectrum" was probably a bad choice of words. I just mean that they guarantee that the user doesn't vary away from a coral-friendly spectrum (I believe it's called Kessil Logic), regardless of which temperature and intensity they choose. This is in contrast to other LED options which allow maximum flexibility but at the risk that the user may not run an adequate spectrum to sustain their corals.

 

[Snarkys]

I didn't read all of the posts but, The good LEDs allow you to change the spectrum without a bulb change and a couple pendants allow for an extra top down down viewing angle, halides are tread but the contain hazardous materials and can explode, the are super hot, too. I have a kessil 150 tuna blue and a solar flare on my fuge

The ability to change spectrum is super awesome if you know the spectrum you are looking for and have the ability to measure it which very few people do or have. Otherwise we are just adjusting spectrum and intensity to what pleases the eye, not a spectrum that promotes coral health and growth.

The kessil lights are interesting because they designed a blue spectrum that they believe to be ideal for corals and as you turn the knob to tune the spectrum all you are really doing is adding in a green yellow and red for visual appeal to your eye. This is why they say you don't have to be concerned with spectrum on their lights. I think a statement that it is the perfect spectrum for every coral out there is probably a bit all too encompassing but its likely you will find success with most.

Most of the other LED lights give you full control over each individual spectrum. Most reefers are pretty far from understanding how corals react to each spectrum and end up just flipping switches to what looks cool and hoping for the best. This is true for spectrum and intensity(PAR). Pretty far from tuning for ideal spectrums of the corals. Thats one of the really nice things about T5 and Halides. There are a slew of very well proven bulbs out there you don't have to tune or have a tremendous amount of knowledge on spectrum to be successful with. More or less just plug them in.

 

[Snarkys]

Just to give you an idea of how kessil approaches this we took some spectrum images of all the spectrum settings on the Kessil AP700. The first one is the blue spectrum they say is designed for ideal coral growth. Then you can see how that doesn't change much as they add the other colors in for visual appeal. You will notice the some of the blue spectrum appears to be reduced but thats because this is a relative intensity messurement and it goes down relative to the other spectrums being turned up.

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[Johnseye]

The ability to change spectrum is super awesome if you know the spectrum you are looking for and have the ability to measure it which very few people do or have. Otherwise we are just adjusting spectrum and intensity to what pleases the eye, not a spectrum that promotes coral health and growth.

The kessil lights are interesting because they designed a blue spectrum that they believe to be ideal for corals and as you turn the knob to tune the spectrum all you are really doing is adding in a green yellow and red for visual appeal to your eye. This is why they say you don't have to be concerned with spectrum on their lights. I think a statement that it is the perfect spectrum for every coral out there is probably a bit all too encompassing but its likely you will find success with most.

Most of the other LED lights give you full control over each individual spectrum. Most reefers are pretty far from understanding how corals react to each spectrum and end up just flipping switches to what looks cool and hoping for the best. This is true for spectrum and intensity(PAR). Pretty far from tuning for ideal spectrums of the corals. Thats one of the really nice things about T5 and Halides. There are a slew of very well proven bulbs out there you don't have to tune or have a tremendous amount of knowledge on spectrum to be successful with. More or less just plug them in.

On point again. Who is this guy? [emoji6]
I hadn't realized Kessil helped to dummy proof their spectrums. A good move. It's very easy to screw things up.

Great job with the BRS 160 in your support of the reefing community by the way. You really helped me out as I moved from a 120g to 260g.


I really like what Kessil has done with their latest models. Definitely progress in the right direction. My plan is to fit a pair of 360s into my Spectra fixture. Once the warranty expires of course.

 

[timnem70]

All this info is great and each has merrit. I guess it depends on what you are trying to keep in your aquarium. I have a 30 gallon nano with 1 Kessil A360WE over it and have all but one LPS and they love it. I suppose if you have a larger tank and want to grow SPS you would need more light than this particular lighting option can produce. I love the look, coverage, controlability, and options produced by LED with T5 supplementation. I'm my humble opinion, this is the future of our hobby and will save on both long term cost to both your electric bill and replacement of bulbs.

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[Snarkys]

I think one of the issues with LEDs and full blown SPS tanks is US reefers seem to be only willing to buy super high powered lights that come in a compact module shape. This is more or less where most of the issues come from and why so many of us are adding T5's back to the mix.

However, most of the longer fixture type LED's which solve the shadowing issues typically end up having really bad visual disco effects and poor color blending. We recently started testing the Philips coral care, and it's still a module but it's huge covers a large area with an even blanket of light. It also uses a frosted plate over the LED's which almost eliminates the disco and color blending effects in the tank.

Physically it is huge, like 20 pounds and not something that I would put on a tank without a hood to hide it but I think they are going in the right direction.

http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare

 

[Snarkys]

Brand new tank, we just put the light on it a few days ago. Sadly I don't think there will be a US version for a pretty long time.

 

[gus6464]

Brand new tank, we just put the light on it a few days ago. Sadly I don't think there will be a US version for a pretty long time.

What size power converter are you using on it? My wife is traveling to EU in a couple of months so thinking about having her bring me one back.

 

[ktownhero]

I think one of the issues with LEDs and full blown SPS tanks is US reefers seem to be only willing to buy super high powered lights that come in a compact module shape. This is more or less where most of the issues come from and why so many of us are adding T5's back to the mix.

However, most of the longer fixture type LED's which solve the shadowing issues typically end up having really bad visual disco effects and poor color blending. We recently started testing the Philips coral care, and it's still a module but it's huge covers a large area with an even blanket of light. It also uses a frosted plate over the LED's which almost eliminates the disco and color blending effects in the tank.

Physically it is huge, like 20 pounds and not something that I would put on a tank without a hood to hide it but I think they are going in the right direction.

http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare

I just saw your video on the Giesmann Vervve last night and it really piqued my curiosity. There's almost no information about it other than your single video though. Seems like it has a lot of potential from a design, feature and price perspective. Have you had any feedback on those or been experimenting with one?

 

[gus6464]

I just saw your video on the Giesmann Vervve last night and it really piqued my curiosity. There's almost no information about it other than your single video though. Seems like it has a lot of potential from a design, feature and price perspective. Have you had any feedback on those or been experimenting with one?

You won't find much info on it because it's not a radion, hydra, or kessil. Lights from companies outside the US do not get any attention in these boards which is a shame. It's a light superior than the above 3 though.