LED's are bad for our Hobby

[Bilk]

Well what type of LED fixture is it? How many over what sized tank? Height above sandbed/water? Photoperiod? Intensity? Most if not all of these questions apply to all methods of illuminating a reef tank.

Not being critical, but "better results"? What does that mean relative to the discussion?

 

[rovster]

Wow, I love these threads, LOL! Its not fair to compare one tank to the next because there are too many variables. I think the facts are:

Low kelvin halides are the KING at pure growth. Higher kelvin halides are a good combo of growth and color. Heat, electricity, and bulb replacement are the biggest factors to consider. Its a set it and forget it approach. Even a caveman can do it

LEDs will grow SPS and do a decent job of coloring. NO way you can compare to a low K halide from a pure growth perspective, but its a viable lighting alternative. Advantages are controllability, custom programming, efficiency (arguable), and they run cool. Up front costs are high, and they are more complicated to "dial in".

There, lets stop the bickering, call a spade a spade, and move on. "Better" is in the eye of the beholder. The proof is in the pudding. With LEDs you give up a lot, and if you are OK with the compromise, all the power to ya!

 

[tinkerman]

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry.

Jammy I am not offended by a rookie telling me my colors are not the greatest after I already said that I would not consider my tank to not have TOTM colors. The pics I posted were to show that the leds the guy is running are not growing healthy corals. The colors are horrible under his specific led set up, but make the coral look better under actinic lighting to give a false look of a healthy coral. This guy and myself have traded coral back and forth to see how the corals do in different tanks and conditions. My tank always seemed to produce better results and he should have stuck with his t5 set up as it looked and did better for him.

All the info manufactures have put out about leds seems to be nothing more than Pseudoscience to hype up their product. They always list our unit puts out more par or what ever than a 250w halide but never tell you which ballast, bulb, and reflector were used. Why is the hobbyist the one to do all the research about leds? Why do none of the manufactures put out studies, pics, or settings to help the hobbyist? The ballast, bulb, reflector question will always be asked as it applies to all the popular fixtures out there whether it be t5, halide, or led if you change one part of it, it will affect the other in output. If the manufactures do have proof of any info saying this is why this yrs upgrades are better than last why can't you find this info? The tech is moving way to fats for any studies to be done. How many have kept their led fixture for more than 3 yrs? Do we know what to expect for maintenance on them to justify the cost savings people talk about? If you need 2x the fixtures you might as well run one of the older techs and pay the extra few bucks a month to run them than play scientist with more coral.

I see why LFS's run leds over frag tanks, to sell more coral. Who isn't going to buy that coral that looks like it is on acid till you get it home and put it under a 12-14k light and the colors disappear. Sure blue leds make your coral look more colorful, fluoresce more, and show colors you don't normally see with them. If those of you want to do the r&d for the manufactures while lining their pockets be my guest, I will sit back read and wait.

 

[Wazzel]

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry.

Jammy I am not offended by a rookie telling me my colors are not the greatest after I already said that I would not consider my tank to not have TOTM colors. The pics I posted were to show that the leds the guy is running are not growing healthy corals. The colors are horrible under his specific led set up, but make the coral look better under actinic lighting to give a false look of a healthy coral. This guy and myself have traded coral back and forth to see how the corals do in different tanks and conditions. My tank always seemed to produce better results and he should have stuck with his t5 set up as it looked and did better for him.

All the info manufactures have put out about leds seems to be nothing more than Pseudoscience to hype up their product. They always list our unit puts out more par or what ever than a 250w halide but never tell you which ballast, bulb, and reflector were used. Why is the hobbyist the one to do all the research about leds? Why do none of the manufactures put out studies, pics, or settings to help the hobbyist? The ballast, bulb, reflector question will always be asked as it applies to all the popular fixtures out there whether it be t5, halide, or led if you change one part of it, it will affect the other in output. If the manufactures do have proof of any info saying this is why this yrs upgrades are better than last why can't you find this info? The tech is moving way to fats for any studies to be done. How many have kept their led fixture for more than 3 yrs? Do we know what to expect for maintenance on them to justify the cost savings people talk about? If you need 2x the fixtures you might as well run one of the older techs and pay the extra few bucks a month to run them than play scientist with more coral.

I see why LFS's run leds over frag tanks, to sell more coral. Who isn't going to buy that coral that looks like it is on acid till you get it home and put it under a 12-14k light and the colors disappear. Sure blue leds make your coral look more colorful, fluoresce more, and show colors you don't normally see with them. If those of you want to do the r&d for the manufactures while lining their pockets be my guest, I will sit back read and wait.

People also do not realize that power claims are made with the LED fixture running at 100% on all channels. Lots of LED users under utilize the fixtures to get a color they like to look at. IMO the fixtures are not as flexible as the manufactures lead you to believe. You might be able to dial in lots of colors, but you will not necessarily be successful at all settings due to par loss being directly proportional to power. I only know that because I did a power vs par study on my fixture.

If everyone took a wait and see approach none of the proven tech would have made it to today. T-5 and radium lamps did not have a rock star start. It is a choice if you want to take the risk and have no negative feelings if a person is risk averse. This is the first time I took an early adopter approach, but only because I was setting up a new system. There is nothing I saw in LED that would have made me dump MH or T-5 if I had already been running them.

 

[Spslvr]

Whilst not strictly a manufacturer triton labs flagship tank is run under leds, although they are blanket coverage..

 

[tmc1313]

You might be able to dial in lots of colors, but you will not necessarily be successful at all settings due to par loss being directly proportional to power. I only know that because I did a power vs par study on my fixture.

I agree. A fellow reefer uses AI Sols with stock optics (70 degree on the corners and 40 degree in the middle). He has an SPS reef and runs his units at 40% whites and 95% blues. IMO, his SPS look amazing, ie...color, growth etc... I wonder if he changed to all 70 degree optics and kept his current settings what would happen. He would be getting better spread, but loss of par. I assume he would not be able to keep his current settings and have to increase his percentages to achieve the same results. Agreed?

 

[tinkerman]

What was the title of the thread again? Oh ya led's are bad for the hobby. This thread keeps getting side tracked about color and growth arguments. Yes I am to blame too. If you have 10 companies doing r&d on their new tech to make sure it works and can be done by most you would have way less tank inhabitants being killed than by releasing a none r&d tech and having hobbyist doing the r&d for them. How many threads have been posted about governments thinking about banning imports on coral and fish for hobby purposes? Letting hobbyists do the r&d for leds sure isn't going to help that if they are really starting to see a decline in these animals and the numbers are getting that small that you might not ever see these animals in the wild. So ya I don't see it as helping the hobby. And to add more variables to keeping a saltwater tank. All these bells and whistles are not needed to keep a tank just make it harder.

Sure you have aqua cultured corals but most newbies won't spend that kind of money on corals. My LFS won't even get aqua cultured corals in as he makes no money off them or ends up killing them, cause people won't pay the mark up he would add and would just order it themselves.

For those that keep Nano tanks yes it gives them another light choice as there are very few t5 lights under 24", so led or halide for those tanks.

 

[tinkerman]

Wazzel when did you do this? I read your build thread and looks like you started leds around july last yr, hardly enough time to any decent testing and that is just for the brand leds you use. If you started earlier with leds where is the thread?

 

[Wazzel]

Wazzel when did you do this? I read your build thread and looks like you started leds around july last yr, hardly enough time to any decent testing and that is just for the brand leds you use. If you started earlier with leds where is the thread?

I will have to dig up my test thread, it was real basic. It is in the equipment fourm. I set this tank up early last year, added first corals in May. The tank has been LED since the start. My thread here was kind of a catch up. Yes my findings and experience are valid for the AI hydra52. They can be use some what with other fixtures, if I had to guess. I believe the operating principals for LED are the same regardless of the layout.

Here is my test thread.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2467729&highlight=par+vs+power

 

[Spslvr]

tinkerman you are all over the shop, youve been arguing that leds are bad for the hobby because they cant keep sps alive, healthy and growing now that alot of proof to the contrary has been provided you say thats not your argument?

Now your saying that leds are going to be the driving force on a ban on importing wild collections? Im not sure im following you...

Could i be so bold as to ask you to point form your greivences with leds so we can all better understand your beef? [argument]

 

[Wazzel]

I agree. A fellow reefer uses AI Sols with stock optics (70 degree on the corners and 40 degree in the middle). He has an SPS reef and runs his units at 40% whites and 95% blues. IMO, his SPS look amazing, ie...color, growth etc... I wonder if he changed to all 70 degree optics and kept his current settings what would happen. He would be getting better spread, but loss of par. I assume he would not be able to keep his current settings and have to increase his percentages to achieve the same results. Agreed?

I am not familure with that fixture. If I had to guess I suspect her would get better coverage and less power with the same setting. A par meter would be helpful to track the change.

 

[mhucasey]

Whilst not strictly a manufacturer triton labs flagship tank is run under leds, although they are blanket coverage..

Yes, those are an example of a LED system that works - the LANI LED. You buy modules that are 40cm square and make up an array that covers the top of the tank. Here are the specs:
40 cm x 40 cm
Number of LEDs
A total of 80 arranged as follows:
32x CREE XT-E, white(cool white)
32x CREE XP-E, blue
16x purple(405nm)
These are like a T5 fixture, you set them up and they just work. They use 3watt LEDs with no optics and run them at 1 watt for efficiency. They don't do custom color profiles, or fancy ramping, etc. They don't have fans too fail, and they are sealed from moisture.

I've read a lot of threads from Europe about tanks with these and they don't get coral burns, or have to ramp the percentage up slowly, and the tanks with these are pretty spectacular. So whats the downside? The price is one. Each panel is 990 euros, and the controller is 189 euros. They use about 1/2-2/3 the power of a T5 system they replace.
On my tank, which has a 36" X 28" footprint and currently uses an 8X39watt T5 fixture, I would need 2 full panels at least.(they also have half panel sizes when they make you a whole fixture). At current exchange rates thats 2400bucks minimum. Thats a lot of money - and it would use at least 160 watts depending on the efficiency. That makes it a very hard sell.

When LED prices come down and aquarium lighting manufacturers can use more emitters like this, people will have more success and the argument about LEDs for SPS will decline. The prices will not drop based on anything we do, however. The emitters will get cheaper to produce based on general improvements in manufacturing and the many other uses of LEDs out there.

 

[xxxduke62xxx]

Ha funny 60% of my acro collection is wild acros so there goes
That theory

 

[tinkerman]

Spslvr The op started the thread to discuss if leds are bad for the hobby. It is turning into a growth and coloration thread and there are plenty of them already. I don't think leds are a light that is ready for anyone to use yet, maybe some of the more advanced reefers. There are still to many people having problems to say they grow and color corals, can they yes in the right hands. If you want to debate on growth or color lets take it to the appropriate thread.

There has been talk about placing bans on importing animals for the hobby and don't think leds are helping if people are killing corals to figure out proper setting on their leds. Yes they may kill corals regardless of leds but would think less would be killed if leds was already figured out.

My beef is manufacturers released Pseudoscience claims about the lights to get them off the ground and hype up the product. Placed the research on the hobbyist to get them to work right. Any studies a hobbyist will do is considered Pseudoscience and may not be able to be replicated by others. If the manufactures want to sell the light do the foot work to work for the average hobbyist and have good results. I have used a rapidled kit over a nano tank and didn't work out. Was it my fault maybe, maybe not.

Are they good for the hobby yes they increase sales.
Are they going to help with talks of bans if there is an increase in demand for these animals absolutely not.

If leds don't make headway and take out halide equipment, so I or others can't get bulbs, ballasts, or reflectors I will go back to t5 before starting the guessing game which brand fixture will work for me and my tank.

 

[JB NY]

The way LANI LED does it the right way, I think. Lots of LED all over. I agree once we get to these kinds of fixtures I think many people will be much happier with LED, right now the manufactures we are seeing are using too few modules and selling us on the fact that they work, they can but not with out some difficulty. But I do believe once more fixtures like LANI LED come out people will have much better success.

 

[Wazzel]

Ha funny 60% of my acro collection is wild acros so there goes
That theory

100% of my corals are captive propagated. 0% from LED tanks. They all look as good as the parents did. It did take several months for them to settle in, but from my experience that is normal.

 

[Wazzel]

The way LANI LED does it the right way, I think. Lots of LED all over. I agree once we get to these kinds of fixtures I think many people will be much happier with LED, right now the manufactures we are seeing are using too few modules and selling us on the fact that they work, they can but not with out some difficulty. But I do believe once more fixtures like LANI LED come out people will have much better success.

Or something like the AI sol with many smaller clusters. Personally I like the clusters, but AI had a better layout on the sol than the hydra line. I would love to see a square 9 half puck fixture from AI. I have already decided that if AI upgrade the hydra pucks but keeps the 4x1 layout I am just going to keep what I got.

 

[Spslvr]

Yes, I said it! LED lighting is bad for our hobby.



Then, somewhere around 6-7 years ago, I got on the LED band wagon and changed everything to LED. Things changed, lost corals and corals not happy.
I went through approximately 5 brands of LED's, with multiple versions of each one, finally ending with Radion Gen 3's trying to find the best LED lighting. I've spent no less then 25k+ on different lighting systems all to find the perfect system. Never in that time did I have the simplicity, colors or growth then I did with my very first MH system.

I recently just went back to a MH/T5 combo and not going to look back. It's amazing the almost instant growth and coloration I got with the MH. I'm ticked off at all the money I've dropped on lighting systems when the original technology was and still is the best for SPS.



Sorry mate i must have missunderstood. The op seems to talk about color and growth no big deal....

i do agree with you in some regards i think manufacturers are bamboozaling us with their statistical spin doctorine and yes you are correct it is hurting newbies, if manufacturers actually provided us with the real figures and we were all well aware of just how much we need at the current prices i dont think anyone would touch leds, we are being ripped off, but this extends to much more than just leds mabe your beef should be about how we as hobbiests get exploited by greedy manufacturers shelling out $$$ for everything from snakeoil additives to over the top expensive equipment that does nothing more than a product half the price!!

 

[brad65ford]

Yes, I said it! LED lighting is bad for our hobby.



Then, somewhere around 6-7 years ago, I got on the LED band wagon and changed everything to LED. Things changed, lost corals and corals not happy.
I went through approximately 5 brands of LED's, with multiple versions of each one, finally ending with Radion Gen 3's trying to find the best LED lighting. I've spent no less then 25k+ on different lighting systems all to find the perfect system. Never in that time did I have the simplicity, colors or growth then I did with my very first MH system.

I recently just went back to a MH/T5 combo and not going to look back. It's amazing the almost instant growth and coloration I got with the MH. I'm ticked off at all the money I've dropped on lighting systems when the original technology was and still is the best for SPS.



Sorry mate i must have missunderstood. The op seems to talk about color and growth no big deal....

i do agree with you in some regards i think manufacturers are bamboozaling us with their statistical spin doctorine and yes you are correct it is hurting newbies, if manufacturers actually provided us with the real figures and we were all well aware of just how much we need at the current prices i dont think anyone would touch leds, we are being ripped off, but this extends to much more than just leds mabe your beef should be about how we as hobbiests get exploited by greedy manufacturers shelling out $$$ for everything from snakeoil additives to over the top expensive equipment that does nothing more than a product half the price!!

Kind of how i look at it and said it too. +1

 

[redwhiteandblue]

I don't need to read the whole thread.....

I consider the led tanks to be the pioneers of a new generation of reef keeping
halide started somewhere, t5 started somewhere, leds are getting started.......

A newbie buying an led is not any worse for the hobby than the idiot buying a 10 gal, bag of salt and a nemo. And that guy didn't waste any serious cash on an led, yet still kills the fish, and gets out of the hobby.

Snake oils, foods, supplements, and all the other bs gets a free pass from us, so why hate on leds. If you don't like them, cool. You don't have to buy them. But leds/ manufacturers are growing, I don't see how this is a bad thing for our hobby. new products don't come out when there is no interest.

At least I can say I was an early adopter of a technology that helped improved the hobby we all love.

What's bad for our hobby is people not being open to new ideas.