LEDs, HO T5s, metal halides !!

[A. Grandis]

People are already asking me why I'm so crazy about my T5s and why I never explain some of the points I make when I recommend them, so...

I'll tell you my point of view on LEDs in general. LEDs are spot lights, right? The fixtures have lots of bulbs with different spectrums to direct the light straight to a surface. This type of illumination is very different then the ocean. It gets a bit better when there are only 2 spectrums (2 color bulbs) in the LED fixture, but still a flat straight pattern...
The main problem with that is the difference of light intensity through the aquarium, distributed by the fixture. One can measure PAR and see great variation only inches away from other measurements.
Some of the fancy LED fixtures have actually many different spectrums separately distributed to obtain the overall spectrum our eyes can see creating the illusion that the companies use to sell their aquarium LEDs. Purples, reds, etc...

Because of it's nature, as a spot flat light, the main problem with that type of fixture will be the placements of the organisms in the system. IMO one shouldn't have to play such game, moving pieces of SPS corals or zoas on plugs around, to satisfy their needs. It's a gamble that no one likes to play. It's waste of time IMO and burns us out to the extreme! Reefing is supposed to be much easier than that! And can be! Trust me!
That is the reason why I always recommend T5s instead any type of LED. Time and gamble! Well other reasons too, like for example: why spend so much money getting a fixture that will be underrated in a year? Why get a fixture for your system that will possibly need a T5 or a metal halide to complement to lit your system? That's what many people are doing. They soon noticed that their LEDs weren't good enough to be the primary light for their reef systems.
Why will sellers try to convince you then? Marketing.
Just about every day there is a new LED fixture for sale. Marketing!!!

With the LEDs you will have to study and suffer through those tests instead enjoying the tank since the beginning.
Metal halides are a bit like that too about the placement of organisms, but incredible easier and forgiven in regards of placing the corals and zoas in the system. By the way, IME Metal halides are the very best for any reef system!!! For zoas too!! I've always said that!! Best lights I've tried! Their uniformity is way better than any LED fixture, even being a "spot light".

LEDs release energy in form of photons (electroluminescence) through a small tiny area that needs an optical component (lens) and are different from other sources of light, like T5s, which uses chemical reactions or gas, using polished reflectors to intensify their abilities. Different principals will have different effects... That shows us how much efficient T5s are. And also Metal Halides with those great reflectors and large area of capable light radiation.

Because the heat is so intense and the electricity goes so expensive with the metal halides, the chiller running, it's a lot easier to deal with the T5s, eliminating most of the heat, in comparison.
The T5s are the easiest of all lights! Not only for the plug&play, without the placement game of corals and zoas, but also for the uniformity of the light emitted by the fixture. It's so easy to deal with that it's like plug and forget about it!!! That is what we all should be running IMO. For zoas, corals and anemones...
You know...
I thought I was going the right way when I decided to have my LEDs for my 125gal system. I thought those "magic fixtures" would give me much less heat and I would pay less electricity. I was so wrong!! the only thing there had a significant difference was not spending $150.00 a year changing the T5 bulbs. You know what? If I had to spend $300.00 more a year to change such bulbs today, it would be totally worthy. I had to proof to myself how wrong I was even trying those LEDs. So many people recommended the LEDs, so I tried... I'm glad I've never changed my 75gal's T5s for LEDs though!

Now, if you and others really want to stay with those expensive fixtures and think you're gonna make in the long run. I can tell you you probably will. You just have to stay focus, struggling and play the game. Keep in mind you have a high percentage of chances to loose many frags and that should be the norm when you deal with LEDs. Will you burn some frags? Yep. Will you burn your brain trying to figure out the best way to place a new plug? Unfortunately yep. What about those fancy computer programs with the LEDs with all those features? Will you get tired of that and not use 85% of the features? Yep. Why have them then? Well, that's what you'll have to tell me... Why?

If you had a T5 fixture, like the ATI for example, you'll never worry about light. You just need to get the right bulbs for your taste. That's because most of the bulbs are pretty safe doing it's job without any problem at all for a year...
The heat isn't that bad and the fixture has fans. They also have a hybrid system with T5s + LEDs for those who believe they really, really need those blue LEDs to pop. I don't. I think the space of the LEDs in that light fixture is better filled with a T5 bulb. But you still can place a strip of blue LEDs over the tank for that pop, if you want.

If you want to achieve the best for your reef system: you'll feed, take care of the chemistry, quarantine the fish/inverts, etc... why not get the best light system? Yes, metal halides are the best! No doubt about that. T5s is the way to go if you want/need to save money, like me.

Another thing... someone here told me that T5s are shop lights. I had to remind that person that most of the shops nowadays actually adopted LEDs! LEDs are the shop lights, then!

I'll wait and see you guys talking about the subject and leaving your own point of view. I know there are many people here that sold their LED fixtures to go back to T5s. Hope you guys have the guts to share. :bigeyes:

Aloha,
Grandis. :thumbsup:

 

[Pandagobyguy]

I actually completely agree. My only led experience has been with the reefbreeders super lux (which i am still using). The light is well designed and meets that "natural spectrum" look with no "disco effect". It operates on a 2 channel system and is incredibly bright. For example on 27% blue and 6% white i have actually experienced bleaching in a war coral on the sand bed (right next to zooanthids) and a branching frog (i expect sps additions to be even harder). This is contrary to the manufacturers 30% suggestion (perhaps a little off, maybe in a 30" deep tank 30% is correct)
the led very quickly goes from healthy color to bleaching so i must agree LEDs do require a lot more constant awareness of coral placement and a lot of moving around.

BUT, for what its worth i will be buying the 48" aquasanrise fixture from reefbreeders this winter as i still believe LEDs are the most cost effective. I have yet to lose a coral because i am pretty dilligent about checking for bleaching and placing correctly.
PS i have used a 4 t5 bulb system and it was fantastic but i spent twice what i did on the superlux.

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[Pandagobyguy]

I forgot to mention that it is for the exact reason that the op does not like them that makes them effective. They are spotlights. Which makes them incredibly effective at lighting deep tanks (which also makes coral placement harder ). Ill be buying the sanrise for a 31" deep tank but my 24" nano would have been much better suited to a 2 or 3 t5 fixture.

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[Pandagobyguy]

Sorry my nano is 13" deep (its 24" wide)

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[A. Grandis]

:thumbsup:

 

[2smokes]

T5 are the best.Somme of the newest MH are as economic as the T5 and leds but T5 are the best choice because are cheaper and is easy to find good tubes while with the MH they are more expensive and harder to get.Also MH to wich i am the biggest fan has a lot of output light but isnt spreaded even like with the tubes and therefore there are more shadows on coral branches if using MH compared to the T5.The shimmer that you get from the MH is beautifull but unfortunately they also make a lot of shadows on the coral branches.Leds arent great for sps because they lack the complete uv spectrum.Leds are made of plastic and UV radiations destroys the plastic.Only type of bulb that can emit somme ,,harmfull ,,UV are the bulbs made of glass not plastic like the LEDs are.MH and T5 are similar using same salts to make the color or the light emited .

 

[A. Grandis]

Yep, the combination of Metal halides and T5s is so great!
The best of all to grow corals and zoas.
But T5s alone will be also amazing and cheeper. That's why I run only T5s.

Grandis.

 

[blasterman789]

'Scuse me, but if LED's are so terrible for SPS why do we have have so many spectacular tanks in the main forums lit entirely with chinese black box units?

Or, is it simply easier for you guys to spout this flat earth, anti LED rhetoric because you're hiding in a forum nobody reads.

Growing SPS =1,00000000x harder than growing zoanthids / palays. Zoas / Palys are weeds, and if you can't grow them out in dense clusters you need a different hobby. "Oh no....my purple hornets are melting...must be my LEDS!". They're melting because they are confined in a low pH environment while you surround them with sidewalk de-icer and don't understand chemistry. I can grow the same corals to colonies of 50 or more in a manner of months under LEDs. Zoas / Palys are weeds.

The main spectrum that's being delivered to corals regardless of light technology is a peak of 450nm and a bit of green and orange. I own two spectrometers because my job demands it, and if you'd like to bet on it we can compare light sources and you'll see the dominant wavelegnths between all reef light sources are very similiar. Tubes, MH, LEDs all peak around 450nm. The rest is anecdotal.

The guy I buy frags from has a 450gal in his basement with table acropora 2feet across, clams as big as a cat, and the tank lit with nothing but black box chinese units. I look at his tank, and read these anti LED responses, and it's pretty clear somebody is just envious.

UVA isn't required for coral growth, so please stop stating this. Again, plenty of awesome SPS tanks around lit with nothing but royal / white LEDs, and that means no light energy below 430nm (violet). If you have proof that UVA is required for coral growth please link the white paper.

That's cool you like tubes - I can't stand them. If I wanted to make my LED lit tank resemble T5 and have the same light diffusion I'd mount milk plexi over my tanks and call it done. That being said when I've been snorkeling in the Keys I prefer sunny days over overcast. You obviously prefer overcast.

 

[2smokes]

Its not only the UVA spectrum that leds cant deliver ,its also UVB and UVC.UV light is important for the corals ,especialy for thoose that live in shallow water like acropora.In nature corals are blasted with soo much UV light that they evolved to be fluorescent.I think big sps corals in led lit aquariums were allready big colonies before and they grow in spite of the led light offered.

 

[rtparty]

People do realize that UV wavelengths are filtered by the glass around a MH and the glass that makes up the T5 bulb, right?

If those wavelengths are not filtered, you can cause some serious burns and skin damage to yourself, family and/or pets...

 

[2smokes]

People do realize that UV wavelengths are filtered by the glass around a MH and the glass that makes up the T5 bulb, right?

If those wavelengths are not filtered, you can cause some serious burns and skin damage to yourself, family and/or pets...

I have an UV radiation meter(the type of uvmeter that people use to measure UV for theyr light fixtures in lizard and snakes terrariums) and all neon tubes ive measured including the white ones used for lighting the supermarket and all MH have quite a lot of UVB and UVC radiation output.All leds ive measured have 0 uv output with the uv sensor put directly on top of the led.Even the leds sold as UV leds measure 0 on that device.

 

[A. Grandis]

'Scuse me, but if LED's are so terrible for SPS why do we have have so many spectacular tanks in the main forums lit entirely with chinese black box units?

Or, is it simply easier for you guys to spout this flat earth, anti LED rhetoric because you're hiding in a forum nobody reads.

Growing SPS =1,00000000x harder than growing zoanthids / palays. Zoas / Palys are weeds, and if you can't grow them out in dense clusters you need a different hobby. "Oh no....my purple hornets are melting...must be my LEDS!". They're melting because they are confined in a low pH environment while you surround them with sidewalk de-icer and don't understand chemistry. I can grow the same corals to colonies of 50 or more in a manner of months under LEDs. Zoas / Palys are weeds.

The main spectrum that's being delivered to corals regardless of light technology is a peak of 450nm and a bit of green and orange. I own two spectrometers because my job demands it, and if you'd like to bet on it we can compare light sources and you'll see the dominant wavelegnths between all reef light sources are very similiar. Tubes, MH, LEDs all peak around 450nm. The rest is anecdotal.

The guy I buy frags from has a 450gal in his basement with table acropora 2feet across, clams as big as a cat, and the tank lit with nothing but black box chinese units. I look at his tank, and read these anti LED responses, and it's pretty clear somebody is just envious.

UVA isn't required for coral growth, so please stop stating this. Again, plenty of awesome SPS tanks around lit with nothing but royal / white LEDs, and that means no light energy below 430nm (violet). If you have proof that UVA is required for coral growth please link the white paper.

That's cool you like tubes - I can't stand them. If I wanted to make my LED lit tank resemble T5 and have the same light diffusion I'd mount milk plexi over my tanks and call it done. That being said when I've been snorkeling in the Keys I prefer sunny days over overcast. You obviously prefer overcast.

If you want to run LEDs that fine with me.

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

Its not only the UVA spectrum that leds cant deliver ,its also UVB and UVC.UV light is important for the corals ,especialy for thoose that live in shallow water like acropora.In nature corals are blasted with soo much UV light that they evolved to be fluorescent.I think big sps corals in led lit aquariums were allready big colonies before and they grow in spite of the led light offered.

Thanks for bringing that up.:thumbsup:
Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

People do realize that UV wavelengths are filtered by the glass around a MH and the glass that makes up the T5 bulb, right?

If those wavelengths are not filtered, you can cause some serious burns and skin damage to yourself, family and/or pets...

Yes, people realize that UVA and UVB from those metal halide bulbs are filtered by those lenses and bulb's glasses, and only a safe part of the useful UV rays are offered to the corals.

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

I have an UV radiation meter(the type of uvmeter that people use to measure UV for theyr light fixtures in lizard and snakes terrariums) and all neon tubes ive measured including the white ones used for lighting the supermarket and all MH have quite a lot of UVB and UVC radiation output.All leds ive measured have 0 uv output with the uv sensor put directly on top of the led.Even the leds sold as UV leds measure 0 on that device.

Thanks again.
I think metal halides actually emit UVA and UVB. Not UVC.
If you have a chance please bring some number to enrich the thread!:thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[2smokes]

The UV radiation was pretty big on the MH ive measured.Soo big in fact that i think they could cause skin burns in humans after prolonged exposure cloose to them.The UV meter that the guys with reptiles use to measure theyr lighting is cheap,costs like 10 dollars and is attached on a key chain ,looks like a toy but is acurate .You can find it on ebay or aliexpress.My MH(140000-20000 K),xenon bulbs for automobiles were measuring 3-4 on that device but cloose to the bulb at 10 centimeters distance.Home CFL white bulbs measured like 2,5-3 verry cloose to the bulb but leds always measure 0 with the uv sensor directly on the led chip.I am ready to bet that even the most expensive led lights for aquarium will score 0 on that uv meter.Uv meter looks like this

 

[MUCHO REEF]

A. Grandis, is that you, wow, long time?

Mooch

 

[A. Grandis]

The UV radiation was pretty big on the MH ive measured.Soo big in fact that i think they could cause skin burns in humans after prolonged exposure cloose to them.The UV meter that the guys with reptiles use to measure theyr lighting is cheap,costs like 10 dollars and is attached on a key chain ,looks like a toy but is acurate .You can find it on ebay or aliexpress.My MH(140000-20000 K),xenon bulbs for automobiles were measuring 3-4 on that device but cloose to the bulb at 10 centimeters distance.Home CFL white bulbs measured like 2,5-3 verry cloose to the bulb but leds always measure 0 with the uv sensor directly on the led chip.I am ready to bet that even the most expensive led lights for aquarium will score 0 on that uv meter.Uv meter looks like this

Thanks for the info! Very interesting!!:bounce2:

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

A. Grandis, is that you, wow, long time?

Mooch

Yep, I'm still alive, my friend. LOL! :thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[Flippers4pups]

There's a ton of valid points on each of these light technologies, each with their own merits, proven over decades. But even old school, world renowned aquarist have made the switch to led's. Mike paletta, Dr. Sanjay joshi, even Joe Yaiullo's 20,000 gallon Long Island aquarium is switching to led's. The list goes on and on......

It's a proven fact that leds grow coral: softies, LPS and every SPS known kept in captivity. From aquaculture businesses to marine research facilities across the globe. (For them, yearly budget costs are forcing them to switch to the more cost effective led.)

With that said, I see that your set on T5's. I was once set on T8's back in the day, till they where phased out for T5's. The list of T5 bulb manufacturers has shortened over that time and may, may be phased out because of the led in time. We'll see.