LEDs...Where to Start, I am a bit Overwhlemed

[blackcows]

I currently have two 250 mh bulbs (20K) and 2 VHO actinics on the tank (65 gallon), over the last 5 years I have transitioned from a very full and extensive reef tank with stony corals to more of a tank that concentrates on the fish, my corals now consist of mushrooms, zoas, leathers, and lots of star polyps. Time is an issue for me as my kids get older so the tank is slowly evolving into a display and less of a hobby. In other words I want set it and forget it.

I think I am ready to move to LEDs and believe I would get a considerable savings in electricity and replacement of bulbs. Also I sometimes have heating issues in summer and LEDs should also resolve this. It would be nice not to burn my hand cleaning the tank

As I began to look at my options for LEDs yesterday I quickly became overwhelmed with all of the options and would like some input, I would like a nice trade-off between cost and quality. I don't need "the best" but I also don't want junk.

Here are some considerations:

1. I would like to be able to control the lights with my Apex Jr., complex control isn't necessary.....I don't need storms or cloud cover.

2. My tank is built into the wall so the look of the light is not important...no one will see it.

3. I like the look of my current tank so matching this would be nice.

4. Not afraid to try DIY but unless it would save me hundreds of dollars probably not worth it to me.

5. Because of the way the tank is installed I have about 6 inches of space between the top of the tank and the celing.....I could possibly gain a few inches but preference would be to leave it as it is.

Any thoughts?

 

[TropTrea]

I currently have two 250 mh bulbs (20K) and 2 VHO actinics on the tank (65 gallon), over the last 5 years I have transitioned from a very full and extensive reef tank with stony corals to more of a tank that concentrates on the fish, my corals now consist of mushrooms, zoas, leathers, and lots of star polyps. Time is an issue for me as my kids get older so the tank is slowly evolving into a display and less of a hobby. In other words I want set it and forget it.

Your probably running over 500 Watts total and with LED's you can go a lot lower on the wattage. With your corals and only a 65 gallon tank Im thinking dropping it in half will make a big difference.

I think I am ready to move to LEDs and believe I would get a considerable savings in electricity and replacement of bulbs. Also I sometimes have heating issues in summer and LEDs should also resolve this. It would be nice not to burn my hand cleaning the tank

Yes LED's run much cooler than Hides.

As I began to look at my options for LEDs yesterday I quickly became overwhelmed with all of the options and would like some input, I would like a nice trade-off between cost and quality. I don't need "the best" but I also don't want junk.

Yes every manufacturer wants you to think there their system is the best and that you cannot live without it. But some won;t even list the most important thing which is what actual LED's they are using in what balance with the driver currents, so you truely know what the spectrum will look like.

Here are some considerations:

1. I would like to be able to control the lights with my Apex Jr., complex control isn't necessary.....I don't need storms or cloud cover.

I'm not sure what outputs you have available with the Apex but LED's can be controlled through a 0-10Volt DC signal, a 0 to 10,000 Ohm resistor, or through a Pulse Width management system. Usually you need to match the controller to the LED driver so we need more info on the ALEX before pointing you in any direction.

Turning the lights on and off is the main function to automate and secondary it is nice to have gradual brightening and dimming them but it is not necessary. Anything else is just added gizmos to help them get more money for there system.

2. My tank is built into the wall so the look of the light is not important...no one will see it.

This indicates to me you either should not use len's on your LED's or that you should have fairly wide angles like 90 degree or more lens angles. It would not be bad to have an acrylic splash shield protecting the LED's as well.

3. I like the look of my current tank so matching this would be nice.

With 20K MH's and Atinics from your original set up this is easily possible.

4. Not afraid to try DIY but unless it would save me hundreds of dollars probably not worth it to me.

Yes it probably would. But more importantly it would allow you to tune the system to your color taste and be even more effecient. The most effecient LED's from the LED makers are probably 6 months to 18 months ahead of what is available in commercial fixtures but are available today for the DIY builder. Finally a DIY lead fixture is probably the easiest electronic project for a beginner as everything is fairly straight forward unless you want play with crazey combinations.

5. Because of the way the tank is installed I have about 6 inches of space between the top of the tank and the celing.....I could possibly gain a few inches but preference would be to leave it as it is.

See note 2 above. the shield is then nearly a must. But I keep my LED's about 3 to 7 inches above the water line. This does rule out the multi-chip LED's though as they would give you excess shadowing being that close to the water.

If you want to talk about a DIY build PM me. I have walked several people through it. Cost can vary by some ability to do some local purchases, but should be considerably less than what your paying for equal quality commercial fixtures.

 

[RAJOD]

I bought a 48" Aquatic Life LED that has 1 watt bulbs. My tank is 42 inches tall 330 gallon and it was too bright. For FO you don't need 3 watt LEDS, since you are not growing corals. Its just for looks.

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticL...xtures-AquaticLife-AK01263-FILTFILDLK-vi.html

 

[TropTrea]

I bought a 48" Aquatic Life LED that has 1 watt bulbs. My tank is 42 inches tall 330 gallon and it was too bright. For FO you don't need 3 watt LEDS, since you are not growing corals. Its just for looks.

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticL...xtures-AquaticLife-AK01263-FILTFILDLK-vi.html

Do not get confused here between 1 Watt , 3 Watt, 10,watt and even 100 watt Multi-emitter LED's. Yes you get more light per LED by going up in Wattage but in reality you reduce the number of LED's by going brighter and can actualy save on the fixture cost.

1 100 Watt LED can cost $200 and give you 7,000 units of light
9 10 watt LED's can cost you $180.00 and give you 8,000 units of light
16 5 watt LED's can cost you $160.00 and give you 8,000 units of light
25 3 Watt LED's can cost you $150 and give you 8,200 Units of light
75 1 Watt LED's can cost you $450 and give you 9,000 Units of light.

 

[RAJOD]

Thanks for that post, I assume units is lumens. When I purchased mine that figure was missing from the lights. I found it very difficult to figure out what I actually needed as they had no lumen figures or even figures to comparing relative brightness to say T5s.

I had to talk to the manufacturer about the 1 watt vs 3 watt LEDs. They still go by wattage rather than lumens.

Ie. 78 watt LED 48" fixture (using 78 1 watt bulbs was 550.00)
234 watt LED 46" fixture (using 78 3 watt bulbs was 1,200)

No idea of how many lumens either puts out. Doing a side by side I would say the 1 watt was a little brighter than my 96+96 (192 watt) T5s.



I had to buy them to find out. I still like the ascetics of T5 10k + actinic over LED.

 

[TropTrea]

RAJOD

Yes you do not look at how many Watts the individual LED's are drawing but you need to compare this to the total Wattage of the fixture. If you want to compare LED's to other light sources the older white LED's were pushing out about 70 lumns per Watt. Today the newest ones are pushing out about 120 Lumns per Watt. Several manufacturers are now claiming they will have series of LED's on the market to exceed 200 lumns per watt by year end. It will take at least another year before before we see those in commercial fixtures though.

Comparing the looks of LED fixture to a T-5 with naked eyes is something that can be very deceiving. The eye sees green light before it picks up any other colors. Yet green light is not utilized by corals for growth. An old trick in lighting to claim more lumns was to up the amount of the green spectrum to make the bulb look brighter. With LED's green is the most expensive and difficult light to create.

 

[meshwheel]

Not sure what your time constraints are like, but the ReefBreeder fixtures are darn nice and very affordable compared to other "High End" fixtures. Also, they have a full fixture layout so spread is uniform and very nice! You can dial them in as high or low as you want wattage wise.
Also, they come with a full 2 year warrantee. I went with one instead of 2 250 watt metal halides for my new tank and love it!!!! I am getting great growth and color from SPS corals. And If you average it out, I bet I am using about 100 watt total per day for 11 hours!!!! The unit comes complete with a built in controller as well.
I love it!

 

[sfsuphysics]

I might lean toward DIY just for the simple fact that you don't need much light, it'll probably be significantly easier to get what you want to fit over your tank. Initially I thought stick a Maxspect Razor over it and call it a day, but that might even be more light than you really need and if you get a good number of royal blue LEDs in there you'll get all the color pop you need from the corals.

 

[Epicreefer]

Diy will cost you the least and would be controllable. I strongly recomend going with many lower wattage LEDs. The way light is spread by LEDs is very different than mh or t5 and one bright source, especially with your 6" of room, will give dark spots and very bright spots that somemof your corals won't like. Given you have leathers and softies all of these are very forgiving and do well under LEDs par values that would normally **** off lps and sps. I have acan and radion fixtures over several tanks where all of these corals do well almost regardless of placement. Lps just need careful placement, typically down low or shaded. They are more or less plug and play but have their own controller system. Others out there are able to be run by an external controller but I don't have experience with them. You will be fine with a simple royal blue and white combo.

 

[TropTrea]

If anyone want hep with DIY LED's please PM me. I helped a dozen people in the past and everyone was real happy with the results.

Yes I agree with Epicreefer multi 2 to 3 watt leds allow for a much more evenly lighted tank than several higer powered LED's. Cost is slightly higher than going with 10 Watt LED's but the effect is well worth the cost difference.

Note 1-5 watt LED's = about %4.00 each and 10 watt LED's = about $5.00 each. But you need trice as many with the 1 o 5 watt LED's.

 

[RAJOD]

RAJOD

Yes you do not look at how many Watts the individual LED's are drawing but you need to compare this to the total Wattage of the fixture.

Do you know how many lumens per what T5s are? My LED is 78 watt so I would have to say that LED x 2.5 = T5 output. Just based on the LEDS i have.

The color spectrum is different for sure. I can take a picture of my T5 lit tank and the picture will look like it does with the naked eye.

If I take a picture of the tank lit with LED the photo looks nothing like what it does with the naked eye. It will appear darkish blue on my iphone or android phone. All other colors will be gone. LEDs seem to bamboozle the cameras sensor.

I'm going to have to try a better camera to see if I can take a photo of LED lighting that actually looks like it does to the naked eye.

 

[TropTrea]

Do you know how many lumens per what T5s are? My LED is 78 watt so I would have to say that LED x 2.5 = T5 output. Just based on the LEDS i have.

A lumns comparison can only be made on the full spectrum bulbs not the color specific bulbs because the Lumn values are weighted in hard vfavor of the green part of the spectrum. I would say dependent on the specific LED and T-5 bulb your comparing the ration ould be at a mininium 1: 1.5. And is some cases could even hit 1:5.

The color spectrum is different for sure. I can take a picture of my T5 lit tank and the picture will look like it does with the naked eye.

If I take a picture of the tank lit with LED the photo looks nothing like what it does with the naked eye. It will appear darkish blue on my iphone or android phone. All other colors will be gone. LEDs seem to bamboozle the cameras sensor.

Yes that is because outside the full spectrum LED's the LED's are very frequency specific. The Blue LED's especially put out a lot of light in the blue part of the spectrum. Cameras are designed to interpret data on more on a lumen scale which is normally strong in the green light range. So they automatically try to decrease the green and increase the blue and red in the color balance.

I'm going to have to try a better camera to see if I can take a photo of LED lighting that actually looks like it does to the naked eye.

Even $500 plus cameras have an issue with the blue. The only thing you can do is to put a color scale into the picture for a reference then take the image into Photoshop and correct the color scale to its real colors if you want accurate images of your tank colors. Other run with Photoshop and simply look for a shaded rock and adjust the color balance using that as a reference point for neutral grey. Less accurate but it gives a close enough rendition for 90% of the people.

 

[RAJOD]

If anyone want hep with DIY LED's please PM me. I helped a dozen people in the past and everyone was real happy with the results.

Yes I agree with Epicreefer multi 2 to 3 watt leds allow for a much more evenly lighted tank than several higer powered LED's. Cost is slightly higher than going with 10 Watt LED's but the effect is well worth the cost difference.

Note 1-5 watt LED's = about %4.00 each and 10 watt LED's = about $5.00 each. But you need trice as many with the 1 o 5 watt LED's.

My tank is 5 feet long but 43" tall. I have a fixture with 78 1 watt LEDs. It lights the tank well (not growing corals, fish only) But does not give that much shimmer.

Right now I'm deciding if I even like LEDs, I have the 78 1 watt Aquatic Life on the front side of the tank and my Coral Life T5 10k/actinic on the back side. I could give the average person all these explanations on frequency lumens and bore then to death or I could just ask them which looks better to you. And the answer seems to be "I like this side better" and that side is the T5s not the LEDs. I'm getting use to the look because I know I won't have to do much maintanence on the LEDs over the next 5 years. I do like the mild shimmer effect but the T5s with actinic do look better to the naked eye and allow much easier photography. Mine have blue/purple/white LEDs. Only mistake was they are not individually dimmable. I had to use tape to cut down on some of the blue/purple look.

I was hoping they would give me the WOW but so far I am a little underwhelmed. LED does not appear to be ready for prime time aesthetic wise.


I was thinking fewer brighter per LED might offer better shimmer effect.

Have you experimented with something like 20 5 watts vs 100 1 watts in terms of shimmer and aesthetics?

 

[RAJOD]

Even $500 plus cameras have an issue with the blue. The only thing you can do is to put a color scale into the picture for a reference then take the image into Photoshop and correct the color scale to its real colors if you want accurate images of your tank colors. Other run with Photoshop and simply look for a shaded rock and adjust the color balance using that as a reference point for neutral grey. Less accurate but it gives a close enough rendition for 90% of the people.

I have a 500.00 digital and a Rebel film camera so I'll see how old school film does.

 

[TropTrea]

My tank is 5 feet long but 43" tall. I have a fixture with 78 1 watt LEDs. It lights the tank well (not growing corals, fish only) But does not give that much shimmer.

One watt LED's is older technology. Up to date LED technology has gone well beyound that even as much as 4 years ago. However there is big lag between between the commercial LED fixtures and what can be built by the DIYer today. Shimmer is an example of some like it and other do not. My second LEd fixture I built with thoughts of this complaint and the result was so much shimmer that someone sitting across the room told me they were getting sea sick from all the shimmer. After that fixture I kept some ideas from it but as a little shimmer is good in my mind but only a little.

Right now I'm deciding if I even like LEDs, I have the 78 1 watt Aquatic Life on the front side of the tank and my Coral Life T5 10k/actinic on the back side. I could give the average person all these explanations on frequency lumens and bore then to death or I could just ask them which looks better to you. And the answer seems to be "I like this side better" and that side is the T5s not the LEDs. I'm getting use to the look because I know I won't have to do much maintanence on the LEDs over the next 5 years. I do like the mild shimmer effect but the T5s with actinic do look better to the naked eye and allow much easier photography. Mine have blue/purple/white LEDs. Only mistake was they are not individually dimmable. I had to use tape to cut down on some of the blue/purple look.

This is one of the big arguments against recommending any particular of the lower to medium cost commercial LED fixtures out there. Jack like a light fixture that pops the florescent in his tank and prefers a light fixture with 4 blue LEDs to 1 full spectrum LED. John like natural reflective colors on his fish so he would be the happiest with all full spectrum LED's even though the corals barely survive with that white lighting. Then everyone else sits at different points between these extremes. Finding a perfect balance with a set LED combination and without channel dimming is nearly impossible. When you add channel dimming to a commercial fixture you increase the price tendentiously.

With you combination with T-5's I will say that T'5's offer close to o options for establishing shimmer. Some people love this others would rather have Metal Hides just for the shimmer.

I was hoping they would give me the WOW but so far I am a little underwhelmed. LED does not appear to be ready for prime time aesthetic wise.


I was thinking fewer brighter per LED might offer better shimmer effect.

Have you experimented with something like 20 5 watts vs 100 1 watts in terms of shimmer and aesthetics?

First off I would not consider 1 Watt LED's on anything over a 5 gallon mini reef. The exception might be someone completely trying to eliminate any possibility of shimmer with a very huge pocket book. Note 1 watt to 5 watt leds today virtual cost the same amount of money.

If you want Shimmer it can be obtained by having a single row of LED's on the front of the tank angled at 45 degrees so the beam center is aimed at the rear back corner of the tank. On this row the more powerful the LED's you use are the more striking the shimmer. Alternating colors in the row will give you even more noticeable shimmer. And finally the use of LENS with maximize that shimmer. But do it all together and it easy for people to mistake your tank for a disco show in a night club.

The great part of DIY is you can build the system the way you think you will be happiest with it. As time changes and your tastes change you may not like the color balance or the level of shimmer. It only takes about 10 minutes and the cost of 4 to 6 LED's to make these changes in the future. With a commercial fixture you invest 30% to 300% more than it would cost you to build it yourself and if you don;t like it sorry you have to either live with it or wait till you afford a new one.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Blackcows:

Since you've not posted to the thread in 6 days, I'm thinking you've already decided on your direction, but based on what you posted, and if you're not someone that enjoys the DIY route, I'd consider the BuildMyLED fixtures. They're reasonably priced, work best with a controller like the Apex, and perhaps most significantly, are full-spectrum in fixtures that extend the entire length of the tank.

 

[RAJOD]

First off I would not consider 1 Watt LED's on anything over a 5 gallon mini reef. The exception might be someone completely trying to eliminate any possibility of shimmer with a very huge pocket book. Note 1 watt to 5 watt leds today virtual cost the same amount of money.

If you want Shimmer it can be obtained by having a single row of LED's on the front of the tank angled at 45 degrees so the beam center is aimed at the rear back corner of the tank. On this row the more powerful the LED's you use are the more striking the shimmer. Alternating colors in the row will give you even more noticeable shimmer. And finally the use of LENS with maximize that shimmer. But do it all together and it easy for people to mistake your tank for a disco show in a night club.

The great part of DIY is you can build the system the way you think you will be happiest with it. As time changes and your tastes change you may not like the color balance or the level of shimmer. It only takes about 10 minutes and the cost of 4 to 6 LED's to make these changes in the future. With a commercial fixture you invest 30% to 300% more than it would cost you to build it yourself and if you don;t like it sorry you have to either live with it or wait till you afford a new one.

My 78 1 watt LEDs illuminate the front side of my tank just fine. I am not growing any corals so this is just for looks.

I think LEDs (commercial ones) are sort of a rip off in price. My 1 watt fixture was over 500.00. The 3 watt LED fixture was over 1,000 and would have underwhelmed 3x more.

Yes having them dimmable is a must, then you can dial them in.

your are right, DIY is probably the best option.

 

[zachts]

I currently have two 250 mh bulbs (20K) and 2 VHO actinics on the tank (65 gallon), over the last 5 years I have transitioned from a very full and extensive reef tank with stony corals to more of a tank that concentrates on the fish, my corals now consist of mushrooms, zoas, leathers, and lots of star polyps. Time is an issue for me as my kids get older so the tank is slowly evolving into a display and less of a hobby. In other words I want set it and forget it.

I think I am ready to move to LEDs and believe I would get a considerable savings in electricity and replacement of bulbs. Also I sometimes have heating issues in summer and LEDs should also resolve this. It would be nice not to burn my hand cleaning the tank

As I began to look at my options for LEDs yesterday I quickly became overwhelmed with all of the options and would like some input, I would like a nice trade-off between cost and quality. I don't need "the best" but I also don't want junk.

Here are some considerations:

1. I would like to be able to control the lights with my Apex Jr., complex control isn't necessary.....I don't need storms or cloud cover.

2. My tank is built into the wall so the look of the light is not important...no one will see it.

3. I like the look of my current tank so matching this would be nice.

4. Not afraid to try DIY but unless it would save me hundreds of dollars probably not worth it to me.

5. Because of the way the tank is installed I have about 6 inches of space between the top of the tank and the celing.....I could possibly gain a few inches but preference would be to leave it as it is.

Any thoughts?

Two Buildmyled strips to replace the halides, which are apex dimmable (might need an addon for the Jr. I can't remember) Keep your VHO actinics for a while longer. Actually if not keeping SPS anymore one strip plus the VHOs would probably be plenty.

 

[TropTrea]

Yes as long as there are not corals to worry about then you only have to worry about Four things.
1. Is it bright enough for your taste. In most cases it is just a matter of getting the Tank brighter than surrounding room.
2. Is there a color balance that you like. Fish generally look the best under all Neutral White LED's.
3. Will it spread the light equally throughout your tank.
4. Is it in your budget.

A minor issue could be if you want sparkle and wave movement visible from the light.

If your adding corals then you will get another issue on the top of the list. Does it produce enough light in the correct spectrum for the corals your keeping.

 

[blackcows]

Thanks so much for all of the replies. As I think about it and do some more reading I don't know that I have the desire to DIY, I am seriously considering the Photon24...seems to have some very good reviews and at $329 I could sell my current system on eBay and be out very little money if any. I had thought about getting some AI Sol Blues to run with my Apex but at $750 it's twice the cost of the Photon24.

Any thoughts on the Photon24 for my setup? My biggest concern is the intensity of the light and the shimmer.

Here is a picture of my tank...https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...16161800356.2086804.1125666917&type=3&theater

Right now it's bright and fills the corner of the room with light and shimmer on the carpet...I don't want to loose that.