Leopard Wrasses

[Grant W]

First of all you know these guys are delicate, they need the enviroment to be very stable ie,no big changes taking place at time of introduction into tank, have the store actually show you the fish is eating, dose your food with zoe and garlic as an attractant for a while ,mine always like brine or baby mysis shrimp and watch to see if anbody is being a jerk to it, also watch its sleep cycle to see when it comes out and goes to "bed" it could be way off (fish jetlag) kind of random advice but maybe you might find something in this that helps Grant

 

[Mental1]

Gary -- didn't say I was giving up -- just trying to problem solve why the one that had been in another reefers tank for several years died after two weeks. It was eating and sleeping just fine, had her own schedule, looked great, don't know what happened.

The only other thing I can think of is that I have a toadfish in one of the basement tanks that I discovered was getting attacked by a reef lobster in that same tank. The one I have is a gulf toadfish and there is mixed opinions as to its toxiciy but Richard from TBS say they just bite and are not venomous. However, they may secrete a toxin when attacked -- I don't know when the lobster went after him but as soon as I discovered it I moved him to another tank. That is a stretch but that is the only other event that I can think of that may have been a factor.

Thanks Grant -- all very good advice.

 

[iamwrasseman]

hey sherri , i wasn't making any accusations just merely stating a fact . if you have zero nitrates that's great and i too am obsessed with maintenance as i do it for a living and come home to continue on my tanks as i have way to many .i have 45ish wrasses and have had great success with them and was just trying to help as that's why we ask and answer questions here on RC . if we didn't there would be no need for this forum and i can learn something new every day even after 27 years of reefing .

most wrasses are difficult to catch in the wild and go through quite a bit of stress just to get caught and then there's the month of holding and moving from one wholesaler to the next before they get purged of food and waste then its off to the retailer and it often is way to much for them to deal with . 70% or so of the leopards and tamrins come to your door full of internal parasites and also very weak from the process that they have just endured . it seems that they have it timed quite well for them to get to the retailer on the brink of death even though they look pretty healthy .that being said once you restart feeding them it ,combined with the stress of a new habitat it is just to much for them to survive any longer . many of the wrasses that i have had die on me looked perfectly healthy but in fact they were getting no nutrition due to the parasite infestation . the parasite are in the substrate that they burrow into at night and they are susceptible to getting them into their bodies as they have no defense from them as they are sleeping or hiding from predators .
i also dont understand why questions are asked then argued at such a rate on this particular tread but you will get that on the big jobs .

 

[Mental1]

Dear Dave and others:

The quote below is the one I was responding to when saying I felt accused of not being a responsible reefer. It had nothing to do with your comments in particular Dave.

If a fish dies, it doesn't paint anyone as a responsible aquarist to just attribute it to 'luck' and carry on regardless. The fact that you turned your nose up at actually reading a thread dedicated to this fish shows a lack of commitment to providing a decent living environment for the creature. Now you're looking for some magic bullet med or creature to fix all your problems. In all the initial posts you never mentioned the coral die off, which should be an immediate red flag for anyone in this hobby.

It seems that the fact that I stated that there was nothing new in the primer seems to have offended people. I did start reading the primer before I posted and have now read the whole thing. I am so sorry that I have accumulated the information about leopards in a different way. The only "arguing" has been about the reading of the primer and that I am very reluctant to treat my whole system with prozipro. I have consistently attempted to try and figure this out because nothing in the primer helped me. I am sorry!

And Shinypenny -- it could have been a lot of bad luck with leopards. People throughout the primer talk about bad luck. Who knows -- maybe the wrasse I got from the other reefer was 2 weeks away from dying in her system! She had had it for years -- her words.

So I want to thank the people who made sincere suggestions as I listened to you. I even followed up on the suggestion to write to Jay and that does not seem to be a viable option. Oh .. and every day is a learning experience on the reef. There is no arrival point and there is no destination. Just the next event to handle and the next creature to create a secure and healthy environment for. It is unending challenge, education and adaptation.

As far as leopards go. Well, I won't treat my whole reef with prozipro -- and people still have leopards die even when they do this -- it is not the sliver bullet either. I may do the sand sifting star to get the sand bed turned over. But what I am seriously considering is setting up a leopard QT with sand, rock, lots of pods that can have the light cycle they are coming from and can be treated with prozipro. That has always been my fall back option but I wanted to see if there was another choice. Because of the offensive way I feel I have been treated by some simply because I did not want to read the whole primer, the disbelief that I could have actually gotten the information about leopards from any source other than the primer, writing in this forum has been an awful experience for me. If I displayed some "attitude" or you felt I argued -- that was not my intention and I apologize.

Again I just want to thank those who have been respectful and helpful. This thread is over for me.

 

[iamwrasseman]

the display tank that you are describing will certainly accommodate the wrasses but be sure to have it set up way in advance as new gravel has no slimy coating and can be quite abrasive on the fish that bury .
i apologize if i came off wrong as it is so easy to read into someones words and get a tainted attitude even when there is none as i am here to learn and give guidance also .
i see this happen often and this is also why i am somewhat to give my opinion on many subjects .i wish you the best Sherri and hope your wrasse endeavor is positive .
oh yeah ,i just got home with three potters leopard wrasses and am temp acclimating them right now ~wish me luck .and i got a red tail tamarin too !

 

[Mental1]

Of course I wish the very best of luck with your new leopards!

 

[iamwrasseman]

thanks sherri

 

[Mental1]

Of course the tamarin too....

 

[iamwrasseman]

one potters died and never looked good from the start but the other two are doing fine as both of them are eating today and swimming around picking at the rock .
the red tail tamrin is also doing quite well he is swiming around picking also and ate his first meal of PE mysis
now time will tell for them all
prazipro treatment was done today along with jungle jims anti parasite food

 

[Mental1]

Really sorry you lost one. Wish we could figure the shipping end out. It seems that the vast majority die from shipping. But great news about the 2 other potters and the tamarin. You have passed Steve's first two thresholds!

BTW, one my LFS is run by a guy who is really good and we have talked a lot about leopards. He has a beautiful chaoti in his display tank and he said rejoices everyday when he goes into to work and he is still alive! The leopard that is.

 

[iamwrasseman]

ahhhhhhhhhhhh ,the ever elusive choiti leopard wrasse ! i love them and have had so much trouble with them . its so discerning spending countless hours and money trying to accomplish what seems to be an easy task and keep failing over and over again . last year alone they cost me a couple thousand dollars in preparation and purchases is trying to house such a fragile fish . its definitely not because they are from Australia but it certainly has something to do with it being such a long trip to the states here .almost makes me want to give up but i never really will ,never because the payoff is so high as far as I'm concerned !never say never

 

[rort]

ahhhhhhhhhhhh ,the ever elusive choiti leopard wrasse ! i love them and have had so much trouble with them . its so discerning spending countless hours and money trying to accomplish what seems to be an easy task and keep failing over and over again . last year alone they cost me a couple thousand dollars in preparation and purchases is trying to house such a fragile fish . its definitely not because they are from Australia but it certainly has something to do with it being such a long trip to the states here .almost makes me want to give up but i never really will ,never because the payoff is so high as far as I'm concerned !never say never

I am by no means trying to take away from the thread, but I just can't understand how continuing to waste $ and perpetuate the catching of these gorgeous animals when time and time again they are shown to not do well even with the most experience mind on the other side of the glass.

Yes the payoff is amazing when you can see the beautiful fish in your tank, but I just have a really difficult time justifying it to myself.

 

[aulepe]

I'll post my 2 cents here since I suspect my experience will replicate many of those already stated in the 53 page leopard wrasse primer. Hopefully it will help since I've had both failure and success with leopard wrasses.
I've lost a couple of ornate wrasses within a couple of days. Had a Potters wrasse do well for six months and then inexplicably die despite feeding well up until it's last day or two. Currently I have a Meleagris species leopard wrasse who has done well for about a year.

I have purchased all of the wrasses at my LFS. I acclimate them for about 45min and then place them directly into my display tank which has 1-3 inches of live sand depending on the location. The key for me was to observe them at the LFS- the longer, the better. If it's survived over a week at the LFS before I buy it, that's a start. The most important factor in my experience is how they're eating at the LFS. The Potters and Meleagris that i've had success with, fed voraciously, entered right into the mix with other fish to eat frozen food such as mysis at the both the LFS and subsequently in my aquarium. Those that didn't do well were more reserved and might only pick at food placed right in front of them. It sounds from your posts that you may not have the option of a LFS as many of yours were purchased via the internet, in which case i'm not helping much...

Another reason i thought i'd share the above, is because it really may not be rocket science or require a PhD in icthyology because based on many of the posts there are a lot of experienced aquarists with perfect parameters and plenty of live rock who still struggle to keep leopard wrasses. I don't consider myself an expert, nor are my water parameters perfect, but sometimes it's just getting the right fish, one that acclimates easily and feeds well.
Which brings me to a couple of tag on questions- can you quarantine sand dwelling fish in a bare bottomed QT (I personally haven't but do then worry about bringing in disease into an established tank)? And do small, younger fish acclimate better?

 

[iamwrasseman]

well if they were catchin them for me only i would not subscribe but thease are wild caught and shipped to the states and i will always try my hardest to give them a good home .you can say that i am adding to the problem but in all realiaty i am so small that in my 27 years of reefing i have not purchased more than one man will catch in a day so i feel im doing them good by going out of my way to house such a delicate specimine . i will stop when they stop and no sooner . hopefully this isnt sounding like i think it does but i do justify this insanity to myself only .

 

[iamwrasseman]

smaller sometimes is better as they don't litter the bag water as bad and do ammonia damage to their gills which is a major factor in their demise quite often .i would never put a wrasse that burrows into a bb tank as they will rub their mouth raw trying to burrow so i have to treat in my display tank . i never have ick out breaks in my display because they are happier in a reef setting rather than a bare tank with a piece of PVC tubing for a home .dude i don't even drip acclimate most of these wrasses any more as they are purchased directly from my lfs in the original bag and i have learned that the ph spike through the ammonia and air mixture is just to great for many of them to survive through so i temp acclimate for ten to fifteen minutes and then plop them right in . i have had great success doing this because i feel my water is such a better place than the stress they receive through the drip acclimation and temp drop accompanied by the ph spike is so much more detrimental . im all past that ~if its an original bag that the fish has been in for 24hrs ,GET HIM OUT ASAP and your survival rates will skyrocket as mine have .also plenty of live food on hand does the trick in getting them to initially eat . ok back to the original treat subject .............sorry to say that many of the fish that die never had a chance as they were poorly handled throughout the month long collection process .

 

[aulepe]

thanks for the reply Dave.
Regarding smaller fish being easier to acclimate- what i meant is a younger (and therefore smaller) fish easier to acclimate, perhaps because it is more adaptable and might not get as stressed. it's an idea that would seem to make some sense, but i'm wondering if anyone has actually noted a difference in practice...

 

[iamwrasseman]

yes and you are somewhat correct except for the exceptions as i just received three and two were huge . out of the two huge ones one basically was doomed from the start as he just wasn't going to make it out of the bag and died the first night . the other two ,one huge 5" and the other smallish 2" both are doing well as of today . so one large did well and one small did well . the one that died was packaged in a bag that was slightly deflated but i don't think that was the reason for his demise rather the ammonia that was built up from his defecation during shipping .

 

[Mental1]

Bobby -- I too feel that the loss is hard to justify but just by being in this hobby I think for every fish that survives at least 3 die. So by creating demand, we kill many, many animals. Leopards travel hard it is true.

In terms of acclimation, the only hours long acclimation I have ever done was with a mandarin given to me by a local reefer. He did not know his salinity -- it was 1.036! That little fish went into a big bucket with a heater and an airstone and was dripped for four hours. He was then put into a tank in the basement full of macroalgae for several weeks until he was strong enough to deal with the "gang".He is thriving in the DT right now.

Dave -- there was a point in the the primer where you said you acclimated for hours so your post above is the opposite and what I believe too -- that the shipping water, air, pH issue can be a problem. I have not tried the float the bag and quick acclimation with a leopard so maybe that would be the next option.

But if I cannot treat my tank with prozipro --- I think I must still opt for the special QT set-up. I am mixed on this as fish survive without being treated and fish die when they are treated. So hmmmm.

 

[snorvich]

I am by no means trying to take away from the thread, but I just can't understand how continuing to waste $ and perpetuate the catching of these gorgeous animals when time and time again they are shown to not do well even with the most experience mind on the other side of the glass.

Yes the payoff is amazing when you can see the beautiful fish in your tank, but I just have a really difficult time justifying it to myself.

Well, I have a pair of M. choat, going on a year (as well as 3 other leopards). One was a gift to me from an LFS (female) and the other came from Kevin at LA (male). To arrive at that point, however required 3 others which arrived DOA. Kevin feels that it is the collection process that makes a difference. By the way, the one at the LFS was the last of a group of 8, two of which are still alive.

The important aspects of keeping leopards, totally in my opinion is: sugar sand, absolutely no perceived aggressive neighbors, originally feeding PE mysis, impeccable collection process. I keep my tanks at 76 F with a single degree of fluctuation. I keep leopards in a largish tank, with refugium that is dosed with phyto weekly for pod production.

Keep in mind that there are many aquarists (not necessarily on this forum) who lose fish within a year. Does that mean fish should not be collected? One other thing, I only buy from suppliers that ship at 1.025 +/- .005

 

[iamwrasseman]

well after i received some in very poor water conditions i began to look into the acclimation procedure and have heard of others doing this . my lfs got a shipment in that was 20 hrs in transit and the fish were very cold and listless . they decided to do a "quick acclimation" and floated then out the fish in after 10 or 15 min. it was 2am and the fish looked very bad yada,yada,yada. they expected to claim the shipment as it was very bad weather and it got held up repeatedly . the next day every single fish was alive and well , yes a few did pass on in the next 24 hrs but they were still at over 95% survival as they are with the drip acclimation . so i began thinking and just have tried it when the bag conditions warrant it only . it may not be the best thing to do always but i have three out of four that just made it doing this . the next few weeks/months will tell and you will be finding out through this tread if it indeed works or not . there have been a few times in the past when i did this out of haste and the fish also lived . lets face it they are very delicate and it may be better to get them out of the worst of two situations and get then into clean stable water asap . i don't know for sure and i will be dripping any fish that i purchase out of my lfs that has not just been received in a shipment and comes out of their tanks .