let the insanity begin

Most commercial geothermal tubing is cross linked polyethylene (PEX). Not sure if its due to its ability to seal out contaminants or not, but it is TOUGH stuff. Usually 20-30 yr warranty. I think its just naturally more flexible than pvc.
I really would not worry one bit about pvc sucking up pesticide. Its used for water mains in many cities, and is NSF rated. Maybe in that particular testing application it was not spec'd, but I wouldnt fret over it.
 
If trace pesticides in ponds and lakes don't harm the fish why would they be a factor in marine systems. First the amounts found in the entire body of water is minimal, and then they have to seep into the plastic further reducing the amount. Second we do water changes in our systems that would remove what little (if any) enters the system, plus we use GAC.

Just a thought.....
 
Geo therm and hybrids

Geo therm and hybrids

Here is the formula I used for my geotherm

Formula is: Area = Pi x R2 x H (height or length)
Pi = 3.14159
1ft3 = 1728 in 3
7.48 gallon = 1ft3
231 in 3 = 1 gallon
Example: 3.14159 (PI) x 4 (diameter pipe) x 12 (length of pipe) = 150.8 in3/Ft.
1foot of 4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ Thinwall pipe = .65gal water volume
1.53 ft of 4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ pipe = 1 gallon of water


Example: A 300ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ 4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ thinwall Underground radiator would capacitate approx 200g water

I was cooling the water quite effeciently however during winter (even though its short down here in florida) it was debatable wether it was warming the water. Naturally it would be if the temps in the GH where alot colder then the ground temp. but living not to far from a coastal line it is debated how the waterline can fluctuate with seasons which this in itself can possibly give a heating effect in the winter and a cooling effect in the summer if it where reliant on the tides. I would think that this effect would mean that you would rely alot on how close you are to tidal area.

I like the lake idea, but I really dont understand how PVC would permeate toxins through it though....thats a new one on me.
 
gpajon said:
If trace pesticides in ponds and lakes don't harm the fish why would they be a factor in marine systems. First the amounts found in the entire body of water is minimal, and then they have to seep into the plastic further reducing the amount. Second we do water changes in our systems that would remove what little (if any) enters the system, plus we use GAC.

Just a thought.....

several reasons. just because fish have adapted to there environement, don't mean that the environement they are in is the best. my grandpa owns a farm, and they routinely spray pesticides, which end up in there pond. we don't eat the fish in the pond because of this. the pesticides don't ever really leave the water, except through leaching into the ground.

people on here run there tank water through ro/di systems to remove as much contamints as possible. if the goal is to have "clean" water, then you don't want to introduce pesticides, no matter how little, which by their nature are a poison.

this thread was started as a propagatin system, so i am guessing he wants to have the cleanest water possible. at some point the items in his tanks are going to be removed, stressing them, then shipped, stressing them, the placed in a new quarantine tank, stressing them, then placed in a display tank environment, stressing them. he will want to have the BEST possible water parameters as possible, to give him the best product possible.

on the business/consumer side of things, if i see a vendor who doesn't mind that there are pesticides in ther tank, then personally, i wouldn't want anything out of that tank....
 
Re: PVC permeability

Re: PVC permeability

4Texans said:


good information on those links, so now the question is where does chlorine(for pools) and pesticides(for ponds) fall?
 
I would not recommend putting a plastic heat exchenger on the pool (I don;t think rick mentioned having pond access). Rather, I would use either a copper, stainless or titanium exchanger on the pool and run a secondary (pure water) loop through PEX or polyethene tubing submerged in his tanks. That way the metal gives good heat transfer and stops chemical infiltration (and you can buy used HXers cheap). The water in the secondary loop acts as a buffer and since this will only run a few days out of the year the filling and empting process will keep that water clean.
 
Re: Re: PVC permeability

Re: Re: PVC permeability

boxer85 said:
good information on those links, so now the question is where does chlorine(for pools) and pesticides(for ponds) fall?

Chlorine for pools is sodium hypochlorite (bleach). It works like an an oxididizing agent in solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

Pesticides are basically things harmful to pests, so can be all kinds of things. If it were me and I was going to use a pond that I knew had ANY amount of pesticides in it, (which is really any pond), for cooling a tank, I would physically separate the pond water from my tank/aquarium water and simply let the heat move between the two using a titanium heat exchanger. Then the pipe in the pond is not too important, and titanium should not let the tank water become contaminated. (And vice versa. I would not want sodium or other tank water components to move to the pond either...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium
 
I can't believe it's been 8 days since I've been to this thread. Time flies.
That sure was some good discussion and ideas coming in for the cooling mechanics. I, for one, appreciate all of the input and I know others do too.

Well, let's see, what has ben going on...

The rock has been in the vat for 23 days at this point. It took 8 days for ammonia to peak and reach 0 and had it's highest point at 8 ppm. Nitrite came down to 0 on February 16 and it's highest point was above what my test could measure. Nitrates started to be measurable February 2 and started to climb thereafter. I was able to recharge the DI unit and get 300 gallons out of it before the tds started rising too much, so there was some water on hand to do changes to keep nitrate at a minimum. Diatoms started blooming on February 3. The diatom bloom has been far above what was expected and it has been a pretty good fight to try to get them under control, especially with the limited amount of good water that was available at the time. Most of the pictures make it look like there have been relatively few problems because the pics show the finished steps along the way and not any problems that had to be navigated to get there. Just to show that everything has not been smooth running as planned, check out the "beef broth" in the vat. The water is not as brown as it looks, just the diatoms covering the side walls and rock makes it look worse than it really is. At one point, it was so bad and had so many bubbles on the surface, I quite literally could not locate the thermometer.
mini-100_0201.JPG


After all of the John Guest fittings arrived, the RO systems were set up and tied into the DI units. The RO product water is coming out at 6 tds and the reading is 0 after the DI. One of the tds monitors was removed and now only the incoming tap, the RO product, and the final product after the DI are being monitored.

The color change of the DI has definitely slowed down tremendously. As of today, (Feb. 18, 2005), there has been about 1200 gallons run through the filtration system and the color has only changed down about four inches of the DI tower. About 1 1/2" of that was during the initial flush after recharging the DI again. Below is the full filtration setup with four 100 gpd 2-stage RO units feeding into the two DI towers. The carbon blocks on the RO units have 0.5 micron filtering ability so really, there is no need to run a separate sediment filter. The waste lines from the RO units are draining into the sink through four little holes drilled into the side. It really irks me to waste so much water, but "ya gotta do whatcha gotta do". The water is so bad here that there just was not another satisfactory option.
mini-100_0199.JPG


The color change of the DI unit can be seen easily now that the water coming into them is much more pure. Only the Kati (red) tower changes color from top to bottom as it is used up.
mini-100_0200.JPG


Two more skimmers were added to the vat but I cracked one of the bulkheads while I was doing that. The leaking bulkhead is losing close to 50 gallons per day out of the vat so I haven't fired up the other two skimmers. I have to go out to the greenhouse twice each day to pump in some saltwater to make up for the leak or else the water level gets low enough that the pump feeding the original two skimmers will suck air. At least the filtration system is set up now to be able to have the water to do that. Doing fifty gallon water changes per day ought to keep the water quality high and help fight the diatoms, unless the product water is high in silicates. Nitrates have not been measurable since I cracked the bulkhead and have been doing the 50 gallon daily make up. More bulkheads have been ordered to fix the leak and have extra on hand as well. The two bulkheads on this side of the vat are also plumbed to a cut down barrel which hopefully will allow the surface skimmers to run more freely. The barrel is then plumbed to the pump. The original two skimmers may also be plumbed this way if it works out to be better on these two skimmers. I will also run some Polyfilters to remove some of the organic load from the vat.
mini-100_0203.JPG


The surface skimmers need to be altered so they will pull more of the surface water. Right now, the surface skimmers must be kept fairly deep or else the pump begins cavitation as it will pump faster than the amount of water coming in. I mutilated some pvc 90's and these will be placed so the cut part will be parallel to the water surface. When the leaking bulkhead is replaced, the water level can be kept so it is just above the pvc fittings and hopefully will extract from the surface better. These surface skimmers will not be glued together like the first two were so they can be turned or adjusted as needed. When the original two get replaced, they won't be glued either. They are threaded into the bulkhead, and the whole assembly can be turned higher or lower in the water, but the fitting end can't be rotated to try to pull more from the surface.
mini-100_0206.JPG


David was up here again a couple of weeks back and we could barely talk to each other due to the noise coming from the blower's exhaust. (Running the surface skimmers free into the barrel was his idea- credit where credit is due.) With so few items running at the moment, the blower gate valve must be left partially open and the rushing sound of air is loud. When by myself, I can sort of tune it out and get desensitized to the noise. It wasn't until we were trying to talk to each other that I realized just how loud it really was, even though my sister-in-law had said she could hear it at her house about 400 feet away. (Smell that?- that's denial) A diffuser made for the exhaust valve was placed and now it is very quiet, the gentle hum of the blower running is all that is heard. Eventually, when all of the skimmers and lift tubes are placed, the valve shouldn't need to be left open at all, but for now, this diffuser will keep the neighbors from complaining.
mini-100_0204.JPG


Dealing with the diatom bloom has given me some time to think about some aspects of my plans. A few things I have been reconsidering;

I had made mention before that a few sunny days had elevated the temp of the water in the vat up to 84. The temp of the vat water never really came down even when it was cloudy for a few days. Maybe there are some other factors involved. With the blower only running a few items, (the two skimmers on the live rock vat and 6 lines bubbling in barrels to keep the fresh, buffered and salt water moving), the blower is making a good deal of heat. Trying to push air down to the bottom of five foot tall skimmers creates allot of back pressure on the blower and consequently makes heat. The blower only sits a few inches away from the vat and I think it may be contributing to the heat gain of the water in the vat. The furnace has been turned down for two weeks to keep the air in the greenhouse at 70 and the vat water is still around 80. The blower will be moved in the near future to be a few feet further away from the vat and see if the temp comes down any. I did speak to the supplier for the blower and he assures me it won't run near as hot when all the rest of the outlets are opened up so whatever the blower is producing will be flowing out freely instead of needing to throttle it back with the gate valve as it is now.

The furnace is also fairly close to the vat, about 18" away. It may also be radiating some heat to the vat. Even if it is not running, it radiates a fair amount of heat for some time until it fires up again. There's not much chance for the furnace to be moved until the plastic glazing of the greenhouse gets replaced. The furnace won't be running in the summer when the heat issues will arise so I am not too concerned about it at the moment. I do wonder if the tanks farther away from the furnace will run at a cooler temp than the vat sitting right under it. This issue may have to be addressed next winter. Hopefully the vat can be kept a few degrees cooler than it is now with a supplemental fan while keeping the furnace high enough for the rest of the tanks to be at a decent temp. Then, in a few years when the glazing gets replaced, the furnace can be moved higher if it proves to be problematic.

The tank stands are also being reconsidered. Taking up an extra 35" (7" per stand X 5 stands) on each side of the greenhouse is just not a compromise that would be beneficial, nor would having to leave out a tank or two. They would take up needed room to walk around, service the tanks and just make it unnecessarily crowded inside. In addition, if / when a tank needs to be broken down, the other tank on the same stand would have to be emptied as well. Instead of using 2" x 4" bracing on the outside of the tanks, (like little mini stud walls surrounding the tanks), internal bracing of the tanks or setting corner braces on the top of the tanks would save space. I have contacted the supplier where I got the material to build the tanks to talk about the engineering aspects of this. Most of the longer commercial tanks have center bracing, but I never have liked the look and functionality of them on top of the tank- for display purposes. With these tanks being dedicated to propagation, center braces would also make shadow lines in the tank during the day. That might be alright for some corals, but not for all. I was thinking that running strips of pvc sheet across the width of the tank, but in the water about halfway down the tank, would allow room underneath for live rock, leave room above for corals, and provide a nice support structure on which to rest "egg crate" panels. Triangles set inside the tank, standing upright and perpendicular to the side walls and bottom would connect the sides to the bottom and may be an alternative as well, or could be used in conjunction with the strips. A couple of negatives for internal triangles is that they would create corners at the bottom of the tanks allowing for detritus to accumulate there and would have to be notched to place "egg crate" panels. As far as the corner bracing on top of the tanks, they would be triangles placed on the four corners of the tanks. Again, my concern is shadow lines. I suppose they could be clear pvc sheet to help sunlight pass through.

Any one with some DIY experience engineering or building tanks is welcome to share their input.
 
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As I read your description, I'm wondering if you can make a portable partitian between the furnace and that one tank, to act as a shield to deflect that warmth.
 
seldon said:
how would you get teflon coated tubing? What would be an example of poly-ethylene?

Teflon tubing not teflon coated. You can get it here:
http://www.mcmaster.com/

Search for PTFE or PFA. PFA has real low chemical permeability, but in my lab I mainly use PTFE because it is a little easier to work with. I would think just use the teflon (or polyethlene) in the fish tank for the heat exchanger. The rest of the loop that is outside can be any material that is convienent. The teflon froms the barier that keeps the stuff in the loop from getting to the fish. Titanium would be fine also. Not sure how the cost would compare.

Polyethylene is the tube that is used to hook up RO units. Get the stuff that is rated for drinking water, PEX (cross-linked polyethlene). I have not checked the permeability to chemicals. My guess is that it would be nearly as good as teflon. The price should be less than teflon. This may be a bit simplistic, but if the plastic can be glued (melted) with a organic solvent, or contains plasticizer that would tend to indicate it has a high permeability to various organics.

Did not intend to stir up a big conversation on pesticide, just something to consider.

Any one with some DIY experience engineering or building tanks is welcome to share their input.

Rick, are you going to build your tanks? Like you I did not want any cross-bracing. I ran the numbers and with 3" x 3/4" of wood "eurobracing" I figured I still needed 2 cross braces. One alternative is to use a stainless wire "cross brace" The wire will block a trivial amount of light. As long as you don't forget it is there and slam your hand into it, I would think it would be good.
 
Triterium- Good to hear about your system and good luck with it. Will/ are you running a thread with your progress? I have learned much in this thread as well, thanks to the many people who have become involved and are sharing their knowledge.

melev- Do you mean an insulated structure? (like a mini-wall or L shaped structure-something along those lines)

tschopp-Don't worry about stirring up conversation, that's exactly what I was hoping this thread would turn out to be. A great source of information for many people.
I am planning on building the tanks. The original intent was to use glass tanks. I have always been enamored with glass tanks, it is much better to look at for displaying the corals, and just has to be set on a stand and it's done. I did have a decent deal set up with a major distributor for twenty 125 glass AGA tanks at $169 each ($3,380 total). Surely tanks could be built cheaper. 125 gallons is also terribly close to the minimum 100 gallons recommended for temperature stability in a fluctuating environment such as a greenhouse. Once you factor in the need to drill for overflows and hence keep the water level less than maximum, might even be less than 100 gallons. (sumps or remote vessels could have been plumbed in to make up for the volume but that would have just been more money and work and space.) The glass tanks would not have been drilled so that would have to be done at my own risk. Taking the next step up to 180 gallon aquariums, the price nearly tripled. I also didn't think that a 6' x 18" footprint was very much room for propagation once airlift tubes are placed around the tank. After talking with some other people and checking out some of the LA wholesalers who use plastic sheet material enclosed in wooden forms, I decided to go with pvc sheet because it could be easily solvent welded (and I have experience with that :) ) instead of requiring a thermal welder which was expensive to rent or purchase to weld poly plastics. The cheapest poly fabricator I found was in the ST Joseph-Ogden area but he still wanted over $300 per tank for a 7' x 2' x 18" which could have been made from one 10' x 5' sheet. I found a company in Minnesota who precision cuts rigid pvc sheet. They obtained the sheet, cut 60 pieces of 7' x 2' for the sidewalls/ bottoms and 40 pieces of 23 1/2" x 2' for the end walls, then freighted them to me for $2,927.40, which meant 210 gallon tanks could be built for less than $150. They would be of adequate volume for temperature stability, easier and cheaper to drill for overflows, and the material would be delivered to my door instead of having to pick up glass tanks in Rantoul and transport them home. When the shipment arrived, I checked the diagonals and the sheet was indeed cut perfectly. The plastic protective film was even still intact and the load was wrapped in cardboard and plastic so well, it took me and the driver almost fifteen minutes just to unwrap it. Not a scratch or chip any where. The only concern with the sheet was that it is only 1/4" thick, but with wooden forms it will hold. Only problem now is when I did the original graph drawings of the floor plan, I was drawing them only accounting for freestanding tanks and never made any new drawings to account for the extra space taken up by the wooden support frames. After building the first stand and noticing that it seemed to take up more space than originally thought is when it hit me that I hadn't gone back and made new drawings for the wider and longer stands.



To make a painfully long story short(er), my quest now is to figure some sort of internal bracing. Either that or sell all of the pvc sheet on ebay and go back to the glass tanks.

I suppose I could still go with plywood but me and painting do not go together. I'm thinking that a stainless wire would cut into pvc over time and not sure if it would be a viable alternative in this case. I also looked around for awhile to find glass to build my own tanks but it is nearly as expensive to purchase a small(ish) quantity of glass and build them as it would be to order new tanks from the distributor.

The blue lettering is on the protective film and will be peeled away when/ if the tanks get built.
mini-100_0054.JPG



jeyes-heehee About $2.50 each minus the milk. :D
 
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Yes, I was referring to some type of portable partition, basically to shield that tank from the direct heat. It might be on wheels, presuming you can move stuff easily on your flooring. (Maybe large wheels. ;) ) You could put foam insulation on the partition, or simply make it out of plywood.

Wow, nice update with tons of information. What is that stuff? Clear or white? You called it PVC, and all I use is acrylic myself. 1/4" is very thin, and you can expect some bowage. I would suggest you put a flange on the top of every tank, to keep the shape. All the sumps I build are 1/4", except for a rare few that asked for 3/8". You can see the flange on this sump, or check my site for more images.

router_guide3.jpg
 
Tanks for the GH

Tanks for the GH

Rick,

Will you have any scrap PVC sheet left over? If so you could do corner bracing on the tanks....ya know in a triangle shape?

Have you seen these tanks from aquatic eco?

Economy_Tank_rgb.jpg


100bux a pop if you order 12 or more, there is a $60 crating charge per every 6 of them. Me and Matt just got 15 of them. They are 96"L x 24"W x 12"H

Heres the link for ya

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/3449/cid/1032
 
Ok I thought about these PVC tanks a bit more Rick. Why couldnt you do some cross braces but make them submerged in the tank they could also serve as brackets for holding racks for frags or corals? Just trying to think of a way for you to reinforce these tanks. Im sure if you called the guys you ordered this stuff from they would have some scrap sheet pieces that they would liquidate for ya since you already threw some money at them so you could reinforce these tanks some way.
 
I too was trying to figure out a way to reinforce the insides of the tank, without impeding flow or creating obstacles when working in the tank.
 
The pvc sounds good. A couple of tips.

I would think about getting pvc extruded 90 to help with the joints. You can get it here:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...=USPlastic&category_name=115&product_id=11492

The 90 will give you a wide surface to glue the joints and will make alaignment non-critical. If it was me I would be nervous abot 200 gal held by a 1/4" pvc joint. I would think that would make the botom and side corners OK without wood. You just need a bit of strength to keep the top sides from bowing out. Again you could glue a piece of 90 in place, with the flange going over the water or away from the tank depending on size restrictions. you might just try one like this and see how bad the bow is. If it is too bad you could add the SS wire. You connect it to the pvc with big washers so it does not cut in.

Corner triangles wont add much support. The support needs to be in the top in the middle away from the corners.
 
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