let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
The screws
The screws
I also agree with Marc about making sure you have 100% peace of mind on your tanks so you dont have mishaps, however Marc why do you say the screw is the weakest link? I think I understand why though....If he is using a screw that screws right into the plastic brace then yes the force may pull it out. But if he uses a screw with a nut on the other end I dont think it would be the weakest link. I also think that the SS screws may not be the best to use as they will also rust from what I have heard too. However right now Rick is still in a testing phase to see if the concept will work. If it does work my first thought would be to use Nylon screws and nuts/washers/ maybe even a locknut washer.
The screws
I also agree with Marc about making sure you have 100% peace of mind on your tanks so you dont have mishaps, however Marc why do you say the screw is the weakest link? I think I understand why though....If he is using a screw that screws right into the plastic brace then yes the force may pull it out. But if he uses a screw with a nut on the other end I dont think it would be the weakest link. I also think that the SS screws may not be the best to use as they will also rust from what I have heard too. However right now Rick is still in a testing phase to see if the concept will work. If it does work my first thought would be to use Nylon screws and nuts/washers/ maybe even a locknut washer.
Treeman
New member
I was on vacation for a week and look at all that has happened.
Rick,
I think you need to run something?? the entire length along the top. All the way around. Glue it in or screw it.
I have not taken pictures yet. The tops off all my tanks warped so bad between the braces I had to run 2" acrylic along all the tops and add some additional crossbraces. The way you have it may work for a while. Hell, it may work forever. But keep an eye on it.
Rick,
I think you need to run something?? the entire length along the top. All the way around. Glue it in or screw it.
I have not taken pictures yet. The tops off all my tanks warped so bad between the braces I had to run 2" acrylic along all the tops and add some additional crossbraces. The way you have it may work for a while. Hell, it may work forever. But keep an eye on it.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
I'm hoping rust (at least enough rust to cause a screw to fail) won't be an issue in the foreseeable future. (Maybe by then I can afford to buy those glass 180 or 240 gallon tanks 
) The ends of the braces are still glued (reglued) to the insides of the tank so no water contacts the screw from inside the tank. I know that spills and splashes will happen to get saltwater on the screws from the outside and humidity will be an issue, but remember the Delorean (sp?). I suppose I could cover the screwheads and washers outside the tank with silicone for longer life too.
At our club meeting yesterday, tschopp, David and I discussed using nylon screws but I chose SS instead because I pictured having to tap the holes to use nylon screws and the SS can cut it's own threads as they get screwed in. Plus I figured SS is stronger than nylon.
scubadude- Can you explain a little more what you mean by a screw with a nut, I'm having trouble picturing it. Do you mean a short piece of threaded nylon (like a bolt) with a nut on the outside of the tank? (I'm having trouble seeing what the difference would be between; 1) a screw with a washer and 2) a bolt (or short piece of rod) with a washer???).... OR do you mean a longer threaded nylon rod to span the entire width of the tank with a nut on both ends? (then the threads are only holding 1/4" inch or so where it passes through the nut.) BTW, the screws are directly into the cross braces right now, but they seem solid. They are 1 1/2" screws so it is basically a screw with an 1 1/2" long pvc nut. I have been pushing around on the tank throughout the day today to make the load more dynamic and stress it more than a tank of water just sitting there.
marc- I don't take your input the wrong way. I know you have a solid reputation for good, honest, helpful information all around RC so I know what you say is a sincere attempt to help. As always, I welcome your input. There are allot of good ideas coming into this thread and even I don't know what step I'll take next so the more creative juices flowing, the better.
Maybe I can ask my dad to take some of the pvc square stock with a screw in it to his lab and see how much stress it will take to cause it to pull out. I'm thinking the load on each screw is around...(8.3 pounds per gallon X 210 gallons=1743 pounds / 10 screws = 174.3 pounds per screw.) Plus the load should be spread a little more from the 1 1/2" washer. I can't see 174 pounds pulling out an 1 1/2" screw, but I don't know if that is the correct way to figure the load or not, but I'm betting someone does.
Treeman- How long were your tanks set up before they warped?
) The ends of the braces are still glued (reglued) to the insides of the tank so no water contacts the screw from inside the tank. I know that spills and splashes will happen to get saltwater on the screws from the outside and humidity will be an issue, but remember the Delorean (sp?). I suppose I could cover the screwheads and washers outside the tank with silicone for longer life too.At our club meeting yesterday, tschopp, David and I discussed using nylon screws but I chose SS instead because I pictured having to tap the holes to use nylon screws and the SS can cut it's own threads as they get screwed in. Plus I figured SS is stronger than nylon.
scubadude- Can you explain a little more what you mean by a screw with a nut, I'm having trouble picturing it. Do you mean a short piece of threaded nylon (like a bolt) with a nut on the outside of the tank? (I'm having trouble seeing what the difference would be between; 1) a screw with a washer and 2) a bolt (or short piece of rod) with a washer???).... OR do you mean a longer threaded nylon rod to span the entire width of the tank with a nut on both ends? (then the threads are only holding 1/4" inch or so where it passes through the nut.) BTW, the screws are directly into the cross braces right now, but they seem solid. They are 1 1/2" screws so it is basically a screw with an 1 1/2" long pvc nut. I have been pushing around on the tank throughout the day today to make the load more dynamic and stress it more than a tank of water just sitting there.
marc- I don't take your input the wrong way. I know you have a solid reputation for good, honest, helpful information all around RC so I know what you say is a sincere attempt to help. As always, I welcome your input. There are allot of good ideas coming into this thread and even I don't know what step I'll take next so the more creative juices flowing, the better.
Maybe I can ask my dad to take some of the pvc square stock with a screw in it to his lab and see how much stress it will take to cause it to pull out. I'm thinking the load on each screw is around...(8.3 pounds per gallon X 210 gallons=1743 pounds / 10 screws = 174.3 pounds per screw.) Plus the load should be spread a little more from the 1 1/2" washer. I can't see 174 pounds pulling out an 1 1/2" screw, but I don't know if that is the correct way to figure the load or not, but I'm betting someone does.
Treeman- How long were your tanks set up before they warped?
rick rottet said:
LOL my bag, wrong verbage...I should have just asked if you were either using a screw or a bolt with a nut on the end of it. My analogy being that the screw was relying on the thread pitch/diameter relying on the strenght of the connection whereas the bolt/nut approach would be seem more reliable
melev
Well-known member
Okay, here's another idea that you can play with.
Get a threaded rod (stainless steel would be the best choice I believe), and run it through the tank from front to back. Put some type of flat strip across the outside horizontally ( a U-shaped track would be pretty rigid) and tighten a nut on the outside. The U-track (looking from the end it would look like this: |__| ) running along the side of the tank would spread out the pressure evenly, and help keep the outer wall straight. If the U-shape track is made of plastic, perhaps it could be bonded to the outside of the tank to act like a rib reinforcement. If you find that is a plausible idea, you might even glue a few horizontal ribs on the outside long sides, or perhaps you could glue them on the inside if you don't want to see them. By running the rod through the ribs and putting a nut on the outside at each end of that stainless steel rod, you'd have a really reliable system. Assuming all your glued joints hold.
On the inside, I would paint the threaded rod with some type of plastic coating to completely seal it from the water. Maybe it could be coated with aquarium-safe silicone, assuming that it would bond and hold.
My thoughts are that the solid steel rod with nuts screwed down on the outside would be the most likely to hold the longest, vs a metal screw screwed into a plastic brace or plastic square tubing. The threads of a screw would be the real thing holding things together, barring the idea that saltwater erodes the head right off the screw itself. 1.5" long screws are surely better than a shorter one, btw.
Get a threaded rod (stainless steel would be the best choice I believe), and run it through the tank from front to back. Put some type of flat strip across the outside horizontally ( a U-shaped track would be pretty rigid) and tighten a nut on the outside. The U-track (looking from the end it would look like this: |__| ) running along the side of the tank would spread out the pressure evenly, and help keep the outer wall straight. If the U-shape track is made of plastic, perhaps it could be bonded to the outside of the tank to act like a rib reinforcement. If you find that is a plausible idea, you might even glue a few horizontal ribs on the outside long sides, or perhaps you could glue them on the inside if you don't want to see them. By running the rod through the ribs and putting a nut on the outside at each end of that stainless steel rod, you'd have a really reliable system. Assuming all your glued joints hold.
On the inside, I would paint the threaded rod with some type of plastic coating to completely seal it from the water. Maybe it could be coated with aquarium-safe silicone, assuming that it would bond and hold.
My thoughts are that the solid steel rod with nuts screwed down on the outside would be the most likely to hold the longest, vs a metal screw screwed into a plastic brace or plastic square tubing. The threads of a screw would be the real thing holding things together, barring the idea that saltwater erodes the head right off the screw itself. 1.5" long screws are surely better than a shorter one, btw.
tapper of spines
New member
melev said:
I've been lurking on this thread for a while, but I thought I'd just throw in my two cents here. I used to have stainless threaded rod across my fuge, because I didn't like how much it bowed. I tried to silicon the rods, and it failed miserably. The silicon didn't want to stick to the metal.
HTH
TOS
matt the fiddler
New member
just epoxy paint it, with reef safe swimming pool paint. won't take much if it is just a rod..
I second the SS rod.. instead of u tube, a good piece of wood could be used as a really large washer to distribute the weight, though care would need tt be taken so it would not warp from water. though that increases outside thickness, and i don't think that is dooable for Rick.
I second the SS rod.. instead of u tube, a good piece of wood could be used as a really large washer to distribute the weight, though care would need tt be taken so it would not warp from water. though that increases outside thickness, and i don't think that is dooable for Rick.
melev
Well-known member
That is why I didn't suggest wood. If the U track was used, he could even stagger them slightly so that they don't hit each other as the tanks get placed against the other one on the same stand. If the track is plastic or metal, it should be okay getting wet. Wood would be an issue.
hamburglar
New member
I know that this is not part of the current discussion, but I have been wondering about this...
If this is to become a business...at what point do you expect to pay for all of this equipment? Or at what point do you expect to see profit?
I understand the need for nice equipment, but in order to compete with the live caught corals, you may need to offer a cost competitive product. It may be nessessary to sell for less than live caught prices in some cases.
For the most part, coral is cheap. If you are making $10 profit per coral, and you have a $13K investment (or more) in equipment, you might be setting yourself up for a hard lesson.
I do not intend this as a flame in any way. I am genuinely interested in the money side of this venture. Feel free to jump in Scubadude.
If this is to become a business...at what point do you expect to pay for all of this equipment? Or at what point do you expect to see profit?
I understand the need for nice equipment, but in order to compete with the live caught corals, you may need to offer a cost competitive product. It may be nessessary to sell for less than live caught prices in some cases.
For the most part, coral is cheap. If you are making $10 profit per coral, and you have a $13K investment (or more) in equipment, you might be setting yourself up for a hard lesson.
I do not intend this as a flame in any way. I am genuinely interested in the money side of this venture. Feel free to jump in Scubadude.
hamburglar said:
Hi Hamburglar
It is very hard to make $ culturing corals, atleast easy money! My father always told me hard earned$ taste so much better than easy$, which I believe but sometimes I do beg to differ
I do totally understand what you mean when you say the corals are just a small part of the expense, and the only way we are ever gonna make mariculture a sustainable industry is by sharing with others and letting others expand/help us, just like this thread. I will be speaking @ IMAC particularly on this topic you mention, and have been researching alot lately on it, so I dont want to let the cat out of the bag, but just a taste of some of the approaches that I feel are credible to help sustain mariculture.Recirculating FW and/or brackish species culturing
Aquaponics = aquaculture & hydroponics combined
Indeginious species = native to your area
For example if you live in colorado and the most common fish is rainbow trout, then your profit margin on culturing rainbow trout will probably be much bigger than culturing coral, and I would recomend utilizing over 50% of your culturing to this species. Maybe raising PL's (Post Larvae's) for other farmers if you are on space constraints and selling them. Your climate/region/soil/water etc etc is gonna determine alot of what your most effecient species to culture. This also poses more equipment, stricter agriculture laws. FW aquaculture is so much more effecient than SW. Marine ornamentals is a big industry and has a high profit margin but, what if we have another major recession? (some say we are in one now) Then whats more sustainable market? Fish for food or a pretty fish to look at in your tank?
Treeman
New member
Also, the investment that you put in for infrastructure is just that, an investment. It gets paid of over many years. A percentage of your gross goes back to pay off the investment. A small percentage
Also I believe that with the limits that are being put on the collection of wild corals and the talk off limiting it even further will drive up the price of wild caught stock.
Also I believe that with the limits that are being put on the collection of wild corals and the talk off limiting it even further will drive up the price of wild caught stock.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Treeman and scubadude- Thanks for taking the heat off of that last question. :smokin:
Now, where were we.
At this point, the first tank has been holding water for five days. That may not be an adequate time period but I'm getting "itchy" and the bowing has not gotten any worse. At the widest point, between the top braces the bow is 3/16", meaning that the 2' wide tank is 2' 3/16" wide (so each long side has bowed 3/32" from the center of the tank, same as it was when I filled it). I personally can live with that, it's less than the thickness of the material used to build the tanks. I'm a little tired of experimenting, fixing and redesigning. The first stage design was one that almost everybody, including myself, believed wouldn't work, which was just gluing up the 1/4" material. I believe the tank would have worked like that being enclosed in the wooden support structures, but space constraints made me rethink my plan and try to go with tanks that could be freestanding. Step by step, parts were added to the design, each time taking what seemed to be the most inexpensive and next logical improvement, until the present design was reached. The time has come when I just have to say that "good enough is good enough". If it's holding water and the bow is acceptable, then why spend money and time to go any further. If the tank blows out later, I'll have to deal with that at the time.
BTW, tschopp set me straight on the load calculations. The calculations I typed in my last post for the amount of load on the screws was not correct. Basically, what I did was calculate the weight of the water on the bottom panel and divide that by the number of screws. He showed me that the amount of load on the screws varies with how deep down in the water they are. Biggest load on the glue joint at the bottom of the tank, a little less on the submerged braces, and less still on the top braces. I'm convinced that the first tank will hold, but am going to build the rest of them with 3 submerged braces and keep the 3 top braces.
The second tank has been started and the angle pvc has been mitered. It does look allot nicer and I'm sure adds a little something to the structural integrity of the tank. This one's for you Steve.
Now, where were we.
At this point, the first tank has been holding water for five days. That may not be an adequate time period but I'm getting "itchy" and the bowing has not gotten any worse. At the widest point, between the top braces the bow is 3/16", meaning that the 2' wide tank is 2' 3/16" wide (so each long side has bowed 3/32" from the center of the tank, same as it was when I filled it). I personally can live with that, it's less than the thickness of the material used to build the tanks. I'm a little tired of experimenting, fixing and redesigning. The first stage design was one that almost everybody, including myself, believed wouldn't work, which was just gluing up the 1/4" material. I believe the tank would have worked like that being enclosed in the wooden support structures, but space constraints made me rethink my plan and try to go with tanks that could be freestanding. Step by step, parts were added to the design, each time taking what seemed to be the most inexpensive and next logical improvement, until the present design was reached. The time has come when I just have to say that "good enough is good enough". If it's holding water and the bow is acceptable, then why spend money and time to go any further. If the tank blows out later, I'll have to deal with that at the time.
BTW, tschopp set me straight on the load calculations. The calculations I typed in my last post for the amount of load on the screws was not correct. Basically, what I did was calculate the weight of the water on the bottom panel and divide that by the number of screws. He showed me that the amount of load on the screws varies with how deep down in the water they are. Biggest load on the glue joint at the bottom of the tank, a little less on the submerged braces, and less still on the top braces. I'm convinced that the first tank will hold, but am going to build the rest of them with 3 submerged braces and keep the 3 top braces.
The second tank has been started and the angle pvc has been mitered. It does look allot nicer and I'm sure adds a little something to the structural integrity of the tank. This one's for you Steve.
hamburglar
New member
Very nice so far Rick. I am enjoying this thread. I like your tank ideas. Also, thanks to Scubadude and Treeman for the off-topic responces.
I cannot wait to share some new ideas of my own, as soon as I get them tested.
I cannot wait to share some new ideas of my own, as soon as I get them tested.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Good luck in your testing hamburglar. Let us know where we can check it out when the time comes for you to share!
Changes, changes, changes. Seems I can never leave anything alone for any length of time. But then again, some changes are necessary. I was almost positive that the air blower was contributing heat to the live rock vat. It was moved out about three feet and over two feet. The temp in the vat spiked to 92 one day. After the blower was moved, the temp is hovering around 84. A black 150 gallon tub that is in the greenhouse has been staying pretty steady around 80 so I'm pretty sure the blower is still contributing some heat to the vat due to the warm(er) air going through the air stones of the skimmer.
The gate valve for the blower manifold was moved to the end of one of the runs which took some of the load off of the blower and let it run a little cooler. The blower was pretty loaded up because there are only a few outlets tapped into the manifold for the skimmers and water barrels. Letting the air run the length of the manifold and the excess exit out of the end, lets the blower run a little more freely. I may at some time go ahead and put another silencer at the end of the manifold on the other side of the greenhouse. The second tank is also in this pic showing the new design with three submerged braces and three top braces.
The HAF fans were also lowered down about two feet because the air circulating up next to the ceiling did nothing to move the air directly above where the tanks will be. Also helps keep me a little cooler by catching a breeze. Now I just have to watch my head when I'm walking around.
An overflow box was added to the first tank. This one is experimental, (what isn't), so I'll just have to see if it is long enough to do a nice job at keeping the surface clear. The plan has always been to run overflow boxes, the Reef Central calculator says the wall should be around 11" long. These boxes are 2' long x 4" wide x 8" deep. The need for surface overflows was confirmed dramatically this past week when we have had plague proportions of gnats. I also put the lids on the water barrels this past week to keep out the pesky little insects. Can't wait 'til harvest time when the lady bugs come flooding out of the fields. Some screens over the shutters will help that situation I'm sure.
The diatoms had been gone from the live rock vat for a few weeks with the exception of a few small spots where the flow from the loop was pointed at the wall of the vat. The derbesia (sp) had started to become rampant despite the amount of water changes being performed. I went ahead and bought two kiddie pools from Wal-Mart, took out each piece of rock and scrubbed it clean and put it in the pools. Normally, I wouldn't even think about scrubbing rock, but the time had come when I felt like I just had to get in there and do something. The derbesia was covering every piece of rock and was 10"-12" tall in some places. Then I climbed into the vat and scrubbed the "you know what" out of it as it was draining. When it was spotless, it got filled back up and the rock went back in. I turned the loop over so the outlets and the flow are closer to the rock. It has been 10 days since then and I performed another 100% water change at the end of the first week. In this case, I think it was worth it. The next load of rock, I will definitely have something in there to keep the rock off of the bottom and build another loop to help keep the sediments from collecting on the bottom of the vat.
Changes, changes, changes. Seems I can never leave anything alone for any length of time. But then again, some changes are necessary. I was almost positive that the air blower was contributing heat to the live rock vat. It was moved out about three feet and over two feet. The temp in the vat spiked to 92 one day. After the blower was moved, the temp is hovering around 84. A black 150 gallon tub that is in the greenhouse has been staying pretty steady around 80 so I'm pretty sure the blower is still contributing some heat to the vat due to the warm(er) air going through the air stones of the skimmer.
The gate valve for the blower manifold was moved to the end of one of the runs which took some of the load off of the blower and let it run a little cooler. The blower was pretty loaded up because there are only a few outlets tapped into the manifold for the skimmers and water barrels. Letting the air run the length of the manifold and the excess exit out of the end, lets the blower run a little more freely. I may at some time go ahead and put another silencer at the end of the manifold on the other side of the greenhouse. The second tank is also in this pic showing the new design with three submerged braces and three top braces.
The HAF fans were also lowered down about two feet because the air circulating up next to the ceiling did nothing to move the air directly above where the tanks will be. Also helps keep me a little cooler by catching a breeze. Now I just have to watch my head when I'm walking around.
An overflow box was added to the first tank. This one is experimental, (what isn't), so I'll just have to see if it is long enough to do a nice job at keeping the surface clear. The plan has always been to run overflow boxes, the Reef Central calculator says the wall should be around 11" long. These boxes are 2' long x 4" wide x 8" deep. The need for surface overflows was confirmed dramatically this past week when we have had plague proportions of gnats. I also put the lids on the water barrels this past week to keep out the pesky little insects. Can't wait 'til harvest time when the lady bugs come flooding out of the fields. Some screens over the shutters will help that situation I'm sure.
The diatoms had been gone from the live rock vat for a few weeks with the exception of a few small spots where the flow from the loop was pointed at the wall of the vat. The derbesia (sp) had started to become rampant despite the amount of water changes being performed. I went ahead and bought two kiddie pools from Wal-Mart, took out each piece of rock and scrubbed it clean and put it in the pools. Normally, I wouldn't even think about scrubbing rock, but the time had come when I felt like I just had to get in there and do something. The derbesia was covering every piece of rock and was 10"-12" tall in some places. Then I climbed into the vat and scrubbed the "you know what" out of it as it was draining. When it was spotless, it got filled back up and the rock went back in. I turned the loop over so the outlets and the flow are closer to the rock. It has been 10 days since then and I performed another 100% water change at the end of the first week. In this case, I think it was worth it. The next load of rock, I will definitely have something in there to keep the rock off of the bottom and build another loop to help keep the sediments from collecting on the bottom of the vat.
Katana_user
Member
Ok, I'm going to say it... using stainless steel is not a choice I'd make. I've never EVER seen anyone have long term success (years) keeping the organisms we all love with metal in contact with sea water. Not in retail, wholesale or home. EVER. Even coated. Year or so down the road you end up with metal contamination. I would hate to see your design choices doom your project. I wish you the best of luck, I really do.
Treeman
New member
Rick, I don't know if we talked about this before, i'm getting old have you thought about putting the blower outside? That is where mine is and it is not that loud.
This is for the enginners out there.
Do I have enough geothermal in the ground or to much pump????
I have an 1100 gallon system.
Pumping aprox. 50 gpm
The sump holds about 250 gallons which is in the ground and made of concrete.
The underground loop is 3 - 1 1/4" thinwall pvc for 100' going "out" and the same coming back "in". It mixes at the turn with a 2 1/2" pvc manifold.
It is pumping aprox 55 gpm.
Ground water temp is about 76 degrees F.
Tank temps are aprox. 78 at night and they reach about 80 - 81 during the day. They have tried to reach higher but I put a fan on the tanks that comes on at 80 to do evaporative cooling.
I am putting a new exchanger on the system today (titanium)
Am I pumping water to fast thru the loop?
have you thought about putting the blower outside? That is where mine is and it is not that loud.This is for the enginners out there.
Do I have enough geothermal in the ground or to much pump????
I have an 1100 gallon system.
Pumping aprox. 50 gpm
The sump holds about 250 gallons which is in the ground and made of concrete.
The underground loop is 3 - 1 1/4" thinwall pvc for 100' going "out" and the same coming back "in". It mixes at the turn with a 2 1/2" pvc manifold.
It is pumping aprox 55 gpm.
Ground water temp is about 76 degrees F.
Tank temps are aprox. 78 at night and they reach about 80 - 81 during the day. They have tried to reach higher but I put a fan on the tanks that comes on at 80 to do evaporative cooling.
I am putting a new exchanger on the system today (titanium)
Am I pumping water to fast thru the loop?
