let the insanity begin

Katana_user said:
Ok, I'm going to say it... using stainless steel is not a choice I'd make. I've never EVER seen anyone have long term success (years) keeping the organisms we all love with metal in contact with sea water. Not in retail, wholesale or home. EVER.

The stainless in not in contact with the water. It goes from the outside into a pvc brace. The glue joint on the pvc brace prevents the stainless from getting wet. The outside could get splashed and rust, but you would just wipe that off and not put the corosion in the tank. I think the point is well intentioned. I am still a bit concerned with the long term derability.

I think the last thing you want to worry about is the tank coming apart and killing your stock in the middle of the night. Or if you plumb them togeather, and you might need to for heat management issues, killing all your stock.


Treeman:

The thermal conductivity of pvc is .147 W / (m K). You have 600ft of 1.25" pvc. The thickness of sch 40 is .14", if you are using SDR 21 it is .08"

I will assume you are using sch 40, but if not just change the thickness in the calc and redo.

600 ft * pi * 1.25in / 0.14in = 5130m

You listed a temp difference of 2F this is 1.1K

So putting it all togeather the max cooling is .147 w / (m k) * 5130 m * 1.1 K = 830W or 2800 Btu/hr
This is a little smaller than a 1/4hp chiller.

If it is SDR 21 then about 1450W

The pump also sounds a bit on the big side. I would guess you need about 200W of electicity to pump that and maybe you are putting close to 100W of heat into the water with the pump.

Another thing to consider is that you may be heating the ground water near your pipe so you would not get the full 2F of heat difference.
 

Treeman:

You listed a temp difference of 2F this is 1.1K

Another thing to consider is that you may be heating the ground water near your pipe so you would not get the full 2F of heat difference.


Matt,

Everything still seems to point at ground temp being too high. We need to find a way to get more than 2 deg difference. My tanks actually hit 92 a couple of times. The only thing I have is rock and a couple of fish so no damage but the coral all went last summer. I checked my loop temps yesterday for the first time in a while and I got 76 also.

Gon
 
Gon is right the temperature difference is too small. You need to add a liquid cooled chiller to dump the heat into the ground and provide the cooling effect you desire to the tank.

It will still be more efficient than air-conditioning.

Chris
 
gpajon and Treeman- If my water temp can be raised by the blower putting heat into the skimmers through the airstones, maybe you guys can coil a few hundred feet of airline tubing inside an old refrigerator and feed that through a skimmer??? Just a thought.

I did consider putting the blower outside just to see if the temp in the vat would come down any. With the silencer on the outlet, it's not too bad as far as noise goes. I can accept 84 but I know warmer weather is coming and it will probably go up from there.

Katana_user- Steve is correct, the screws don't touch the water. I have seen titanium work in saltwater tanks. At Inland Aquatics, in the back, they have one tank with a huge (2') anemone that has a titanium loop running through the tank. Most of the passages on commercial chillers are titanium as well.
 
rick rottet said:
gpajon and Treeman- If my water temp can be raised by the blower putting heat into the skimmers through the airstones, maybe you guys can coil a few hundred feet of airline tubing inside an old refrigerator and feed that through a skimmer??? Just a thought.

That would be way too inefficient and probably ineffective at our temps here in South FLorida. Temps today were in the Mid 80's.
 
Rick can you explain your design on your blower intake filters? I dont think its contributing much if any to the heating up of the air but Im very opposed to black since its much more of a heat attraction vs. something like white.
 
Yes my comments are well intentioned. I was concerned because I have also seen people purchase (supposed) titanium fittings only to get "something else" to their environment's ruin. That said, even if it is titanium, it's a potentially costly design choice I wouldn't make. To each their own.

If you are concerned about profitability fragging corals, I'd suggest a conversation with Dick or Ray Perrin at Tropicorium in Romulus MI. Dick has been doing it a long time and is a true pioneer in this field.

http://www.tropicorium.com/

I hope you are successful. We need more folks doing captive propagation. Looks like a labor of love. Maybe I'll get to see it someday when you're up and going.
 
scubadude- I really can't explain the design of the blower intakes, that's what they came with. I'm sure they could be painted, but like you said, I'm sure too that with the volume of air passing through them they don't add much heat to the incoming air. If you mean structurally, they are just black plastic cannisters with paper filters.

Katana_user- I've been there (to the Tropicorium), done that , as I mentioned back a few pages. I'm pretty much open to anyone coming by to check the place out. Not much to see at the moment though.
 
You could try burying the outlet of your blower to get it cooled down a bit. It would take a good back and forth loop, but it would probably help.
Told ya they get hot:D
 
You were right. At least I didn't try to argue the point with you. :D It actually did burn a hole in the pvc double wye that I had installed to split the air in the two directions and have the gate valve come out of the top. Live and learn (to listen...sometimes).
tschopp also suggested also some sort of clamp-on cooling fins that could go on the outlet piping (now galvanized pipe) with a fan directed at it to dump heat. I have noticed that the motor part of the unit has cooling fins on it and I can touch the blower there without it being too hot. It's just the output side of the round fan housing that generates the real heat, but the air is still warm all the way at the end of the run where the gate valve and silencer are now. Have to do something pretty soon with the weather turning.
 
I remember walking into the room where our blower was after someone pinched off 90% of the air. It looked like a pvc bubblegum bubble, all brown and bloated. Went to sch 80 and it was fine.
You can fabricate a blow off pretty easy. Though it seems nobody but you will bve controlling the air. As a safety, you can put in a tee with some metal plates over it. Think of it as a check valve pointing up, with weight holding it closed. If the pressure builds too high, it will blow it open. You'd need to play with and set the right weight per cracking pressure you wanted.
Or, like your doing, leave a blow off opened up a bit.
food for thought....
 
How about a flexible manifold? Meaning running the exhaust from the blower out of the greenhouse during summer months, and having it vent inside the green house during cooler months...it would save on you heating bill...

Nick
 
So, how are the greenhouse and rocks coming along?

The days are starting to get warmer... how is the temperature behaving?

Are your tanks still holding?

Chris
 
Hey Rick,

I think I have a smaller blower than you but I have never had air coming out hot. It sounds like it is restricted somewhere. The blowers don't pump pressure they pump volume. So you have to be careful about trying to do to much with them. I have a blow off that is just a 1" ball valve. Actually during the cooler temps I had a problem with the air coming out that was to cold. I thought it was dropping my temps at night in the tanks.
 
Well gang, long time no updates. I couldn't hardly begin to explain what a roller coaster ride I've been on the last couple of months, but I'll try to report what I can remember. There have been so many challenges going on, both with the greenhouse and my life in general. I feel as though there has been more time spent going backwards and redoing things that could have been avoided only if the future could be predicted. It seems like the closer I get to stocking this place, the harder it fights me and the more things go wrong. I am not sure exactly how much of it is correct to share on a forum like this, but it all sort of ties in together. Please forgive me if the updates seem a little scatter-brained, off topic and out of chronological order, but going back after five or six weeks makes the details difficult to remember. I haven't been trying intentionally to ignore the requests for updates, but you'll (hopefully) understand by the time I finish.

Back around the beginning of April, my son got a PSP (Portable Play Station) for his birthday. It can also be used to store and play downloaded MP3 music files. While I was trying to install the software for that, a message kept popping up saying that we had to upgrade to the Windows service pack 2. So, I go to the microsoft web site and try to download the SP2 but it wouldn't ever come up as an option to download and I couldn't seem to get it manually either. My brother-in-law suspected I had a hack copy of Windows so he got me a legit copy and walked me through removing the sysprep (which is the part of the Windows files that contain the key codes) and typing in the legit code. This was supposed to avoid having to install a whole new copy of Windows, which would have wiped out everything on the hard drive, and starting over from scratch. It worked pretty well, except for making my "my documents" folder inaccessible, wiping my desktop clean, and removing ALL the installed programs from my start-up menu (including Dreamweaver, image resizers... well, just every program). I run XP Pro and have four accounts set up on the computer with mine being the administrative account. None of the other three accounts were touched. Of course, my web site was stored in "my documents" folder along with all of my pictures, chat clients, business certificates, etc., etc., etc. Allot of stuff I couldn't afford to lose. I could still access all of the installed programs through the explorer and just left that window minimized on the task bar. My brother-in-law and I spent several hours multiple times on the phone trying to regain possession of the "my document" files. The securities tab would never come up in the properties box. It really didn't make much sense since my account has the administrative control and should be able to grab possession of anything on the entire computer. He figured at some point, I must have encrypted or compressed all of the files in that folder and some security program must have locked it up as a precaution. I could go into explorer and see the folder with the little plus sign beside it, so I was pretty sure that all the files were still there. I did use my FTP program to download my entire web site back to my computer and saved it in a safe place. It still couldn't be updated since all my photos were locked in "my documents" and that is also where any new photos are transferred to when I offload them from my camera. It did make me feel a little better just to have the web site back on the computer though. I tried to set up a second administrative account to see if I could access the folder from there but no luck. Then, all of my regular online stomping grounds would not recognize me when I logged in through the other account. I have been able to browse but logging in to sites and posting any replies has been a challenge. I was chatting with Henry one day when he suggested to Google a search for the problem. I did that and found a discussion forum for microsoft techs. There was a guy who posted almost the exact same problem except it was a music folder that became inaccessible. One of the responses showed a link on how to take back possession of files and folders. I had been trying that all along but still couldn't get the securities tab to come up. Then there was another link showing how to disable the simple file sharing that Windows uses as a default, then the security tab came up and I was able to transfer possession back to me. Seems like Henry is always there to save the day just when someone needs him. At least my computer is back to normal. I used the down time to go out and pick up some high speed USB ports and a CD-RW so all of the important stuff can be burnt to CD to avoid future worries.

During all of the computer problems, one of the bone grafts in my jaw became abscessed so it was back to the surgeon for some more work. My mouth was just getting back to where I could eat tacos and such too. :( Now, several weeks and more procedures later, they think I may have a dead nerve up in my jaw causing infections, which now has to be tested. This specialist wants me to go see another specialist for the tests and will probably mean more procedures. BLAH

Of course, there is some good news too. My daughter's AAU cheer team qualified for the Illinois State championships by winning three first places and one second place in their regional events. At the State competition, they won first place in their division (3rd to 6th grade girls). :) Most of the eight team members are 10 or 11 years old but they already do multiple successive back flips and toss each other up in the air and do twists while in the air. They really are a dynamic bunch and practice very hard. We found out the following day that they also won "all around best performance" by having the highest score for the entire competition (235 out of a possible 250). They had even beaten all of the high school girls' teams and beat the second place team by 17 points. :D





Well, those are just a few of the things that have been happening here, let's get back to the greenhouse and get into some real problems. Let's just say that nearly everything that could possibly go wrong with this project...has.



Let's see, when we left off, the live rock vat had been scrubbed clean along with the rock. There were heat issues with the live rock vat as well. During the winter it seemed like heat radiating from the furnace (along with heat radiating from the blower) was the root cause. After the weather turned warmer, the furnace was no longer running and the blower was moved away from the vat, heat was still an issue. Then the assumption was that heat from the blower was being passed along through the air stones into the water of the skimmers. Tschopp came up to pick up some drums for water storage, we looked at it and he suggested using some type of clamp-on cooling fins with a fan pointed at them to help dump heat from the new galvanized pipe. I searched all over the internet and most of what I could find was geared towards electronic device cooling or car radiators. One of the local farm stores had some strip aluminum that was 3/4" wide X 7' long for about $4. They were cut into lengths and JB-Weld used to secure them to the pipe. JB-Weld is supposed to take 24 hours to cure, but the heat made it harden in less than 10 minutes using a pair of pliers to hold them in place until they were solid.

mini-100_0273.JPG


That dropped the temp of the vat about 2 degrees which was still too warm on the hotter days. One day, a wasp and a HUGE bumble bee (no kidding, this bee was like 2" long and about 1" diameter) got into the greenhouse and sent me out running and screaming like a little girl. (Not really, but stinging insects do make me fairly anxious). Someday, I may have a visitor or two in there and I really wouldn't want them to see me shaking in my shoes, nor would I want someone else to be stung. I vowed then and there to put the screens over the shutters. A simple 2" x 4" frame and staple the screen to that.
mini-100_0274.JPG


For some strange reason, I never noticed it before, but a swamp was developing between the greenhouse and the field as well as some standing water on the opposite side. Remembering back, the original plan was to use straight DI water, so the only water flowing to the ground would have been during water changes. I never accounted for the amount of waste water from later adding the RO units and that coupled with dumping the LR vat every week was, I guess, more than the ground could handle. I brought in another 10 ton load of dirt (FREEBIE) to bring the grade up in that area and it seemed to help, (and yes, I shoveled it all in place by hand with a shovel and wheelbarrow), and it did soak up the water in those areas.

The second final grade almost completed.

mini-100_0275.JPG


And the opposite side. Not near as big of an area, but probably best to take care of it voluntarily before I am forced to.


mini-100_0276.JPG


As "good ol' Murphy" is true to his legacy, the water then started to run down the north end past the propane tank and into the neighbors' yard. This is the "nice" neighbor who let me have a couple of heavy trucks drive through her property to get to and from the greenhouse. She came over one day and "Just wanted to make sure that some of your tanks weren't leaking". (Well, I thought to myself, they were, but they are fixed now, heehee). She was very polite about it but I knew she was concerned, especially with all of the West Nile hype going around. Allot of insects and birds were using the water to get drinks and wash themselves (probably why I ended up with bees and wasps inside), so it was probably a good idea to clean up the mess anyway. I knew it wouldn't be too long before the "bad" neighbor to the south noticed the water and brought it up before the town board.

As long as propane tanks are being mentioned, I think I had mentioned before that this town was basically developed because of the family that owns the local propane supply company, (and gas station, and car dealership, and ...). My family and a few others from town had been purchasing gas from a company almost two hours away in Indiana, just to make sure our local company didn't have a monopoly. The local company bought out the division of the Indiana company we were all buying from, so we all got one of those letters that starts out, "Dear valued customer....." AARRGGHH
 
Anyway, the best solution I could think of to take care of the water was to set up a septic field to drain the water from the greenhouse. Time to go back to the equipment rental shop and get the excavator again. I set up a simple straight leach pipe with about two feet of gravel, then the pipe, then another foot or so of gravel.

mini-100_0290.JPG


The underground pipe was then dug under the styrofoam blocks below the toe boards and brought up inside the greenhouse. Little troughs were dug into the gravel floor, drain pipe buried into the floor, the slop sink and live rock vat drains were plumbed into the drain pipes. I also ran drain lines down each side of the greenhouse and put stand pipes about every five feet along both sides to drain water from the tanks during water changes.

This is the incoming pipe running over to pick up the LR vat which will then turn and run down the east side.

mini-100_0289.JPG


Picking up the slop sink and one stand pipe behind the black tub.

mini-100_0288.JPG


The stand pipes down the west side. (And they told me that plumbing would never amount to anything!)

mini-100_0292.JPG


As (my) luck would have it, the blower began to make squealing noises. It was getting worse by the day. My thoughts were that the excessive heat was making the grease for the bearings too thin. The heat issue with the blower seems to stem from the facts that; 1) There were very few outlets tapped into the manifold; and 2) The bleed valve from the blower had to be turned almost all the way closed to get enough pressure to feed through the air stones in the skimmers. These two facts combined to place a fairly heavy amount of back pressure on the blower. All of that pent up energy equals heat. It would be about the same thing as putting a potato in the tailpipe of your car. The motor just can't breathe. I had tried raising the air stones up higher in the skimmers but the stones create quite a bit of resistance in and of themselves, so the problem was never alleviated. Like Treeman said (and like I said to him), blowers are really good at making huge VOLUMES of air, but not too good at making PRESSURE. I called the folks at Jehmco but they were not too keen on giving any credit since the blower was purchased over ten months ago, even though it had only been running for about four months. They would give me a small price break on buying a new one though. (HA) They really upset me because I had followed their instructions to the letter in the construction of the manifold and bleed valve with closing the valve until air came out of the deepest outlet. There are lots of other places to buy equipment from. After I talked with a few more people, I decided to try using dedicated air pumps for each skimmer and getting a MUCH smaller blower just for the tanks and water prep barrels. I have also considered using a fairly large linear piston pump to run all of the skimmers. I have been told that they pulse the air out due to the nature of the piston moving back and forth. I am currently using one on my private tank and hadn't ever noticed any pulsing, plus I wouldn't think they would pulse as noticeably as a diaphragm style pump. It was also suggested to me to consider using air stones with less resistance (i.e. bigger pores). I believe in using as efficient and aggressive skimming as possible so this option is just not for me.

Anyway, the blower did eventually konk out. I was getting a little depressed at this time and started considering switching to growing hydroponic tomatoes or roses (or seeing how nice of a fire all of that plastic would make). So, no blower and not much enthusiasm about correcting the equipment problems, left me without skimmers on the live rock vat and drums full of water with no circulation. I did put the locking rings on the drums to seal them while they sat. I put a H.O.T. canister with some carbon and poly filters on the live rock vat. At least I still had water and was able to do frequent large volume water changes. I was thinking that things just couldn't get too much worse. OH, wait a minute, was that my RO units going bad already? Yes it is. They had slowed down noticeably. The carbon filters were changed and it was getting close to the time to recharge the DI so I did that. I also added two sediment filters in front of the whole set up. Below is the kind of crap I am dealing with as far as source water. (excuse me, but sometimes you just have to call it as though it be)

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I fired up the filter system after everything was replaced and recharged with the two sediment filters in front of the system and let it run overnight to stabilize. When I came out the next day, it was barely trickling product water and the waste water output was definitely down on pressure. I noticed the sediment and carbon filters were already tinted orange which they usually don't do for a few weeks after changing them. The town water guy swears they did not flush the hydrants. They typically post a public notice before they do and I shut the system down until the lines clear out. I couldn't get a straight answer when I asked him if they had switched wells, changed out a pump, worked on the mains or something. I can just about guarantee that something major went on with our town water system. I tried to flush the filters and the flow returned again for about 1/2 a day, then it started to trickle again. I figured if the orange tint was getting through the 0.5 micron sediment filters and tinting the 0.5 micron carbon blocks, then it was probably getting into the membranes as well (and more than likely, the product water has some in it too). I tried to flush and reverse flush the membranes and the performance improved...a little. By the time a few hours had passed, the product water was barely dripping and the waste water was a mere trickle. So, now I have no skimmers, no good water and a vat full of live rock. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, and it was. At this point, I am considering just giving up the whole show, burning it to the ground and seeing if I can collect on my homeowners policy. (just kidding, I am not a give up kind of guy.) It only took a few days before the cyano started blooming in the vat. It is deep green which sort of confirms something I had thought when I've had cyano in my home tank which was different colors depending on the light it was getting. David and I had discussed several months ago that the iron content may be problematic since iron is a fairly decent plant fertilizer.

Here's the cyano vat. I am still confident that this will go away once the skimmers are back up and running. Putting in the other Mag 36 is bound to help too. I did take the down time to do some constructive changes. The skimmers' output ball valves were changed over to gate valves, something I should have done from the beginning. Turning the ball valves even the smallest amount possible could result in a five to six inch water level change inside the skimmer. With the gate valves, the water level can be adjusted by 1/4" to 1/2" increments. It doesn't show in the pic, but there is now a 24" box fan at the edge of the vat which is plugged into one of the thermostatically controlled outlets that runs the HAF fans. It is easily evaporating 15 to 20 gallons in one day, but the temp still wants to climb past 85 when it has been humid. I even shut the skimmer pumps off for a few days since they weren't functional at the time, but it didn't make any remarkable difference in temps either. It must be the sun itself. Why the black tub would run cooler than the vat is somewhat of a mystery to me. Maybe the light coming through the translucent sides of the vat creates more area of light (heat) transfer to the vat than does the occlusive sides of the black tub??? I picked up some vinyl window screen to shade the vat and test the theory.

mini-100_0291.JPG
 
Wow, youve been on a ride!
I put gauges on all our blowers, as the the units were not supposed to run above 50" of water pressure. It was fun adjusting everything whenever somebody cranked up or shut off an airline.
I think the idea of multiple compressors for the tanks / skimmers is a good one, if only for redundancy. I know you have a generator, but mech. redundancy is a good thing too.
Which stones are you using, again? The fine pore sweetwater ones can be cleaned almost indefinately.
You could set up some carlson surges to get a lot of flow from your current smallish pumps. It wont be a continuous flow, but will keep the whole tub stirred up good. Use gravity to your advantage. Pump up to a barrel, and let it siphon back- use 2" plumbing for a good blast.
HTH
Chris
PS Hope your eating tacos again soon:)
 
What a mess. You do sound like you've been busier than a squirrel preparing for the winter. ;)

The sediment going into your units is pretty dense. It seems like you need a really large filter to capture this garbage on a regular basis, before it ever hits your RO units.

Sorry to hear about the ongoing expenses you have to continually add before you even get this thing operational. Ugh.

And the "screaming like a little girl" did make for a fun visual, briefly. :D
 
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