let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
serob
New member
Have been following this thread for a while and I am very impressed with what you have done and also very impressed with the amount of advice and knowledge that came from everyone that posted. ( Some of it over my head, the way light refracts through glass and etc.....) I just have two questions for you. 1) If I were to happen to be in IL at any point in the future(who know's where life takes us) with adequate warning, would you allow a visitor and his guest to see what you have done? And 2) (I will re-read the threads to see if you have already answered this) What made you do this? Did you wake up and go "Yes, a greenhouse, and tanks, for growing frags!!!"? Best of luck with what you are doing!!! You are a great leader in the world of captive propagation!!!
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
serob- I appreciate the encouragement and I love your signature line. It really applies to my life right now. I would absolutely welcome visitors. There isn't much to see at the moment but I have received some inquiries along the way from folks who want to come by and a few reef clubs wanting to make a trip to come check the place out. What made me think of starting a greenhouse is more than likely related to the title of this thread... "Insanity". Seriously, I have been breeding and raising guppies and mollies since I was eight years old, so I have allot of contacts at the LFS around central Illinois and Indiana. When I started into saltwater, watching/ helping things multiply just seemed like a natural extension of my years in the aquarium hobby. Being an addict by nature, I figure if one is good, two is better...and so on. Pretty soon I had a dream and figured I was lucky enough to be at a point in my life where I could make a realistic attempt at a project like this, so I just said *** and went for it.
H20ENG- I don't know if any kind of mechanical filter will catch the iron. According to our water reports, the iron is erosion from naturally occuring deposits-so it is dissolved iron (ionic iron). Then when it gets oxidized (meets oxygen), it turns to rust. The rust can be filtered, but some of the dissolved iron is going to get to the membranes and will go through the oxidation process there, which will clog the pores of the membrane (and appearantly, fairly quickly). Since my computer is now functonal again, I have been in contact with the folks at Spectrapure and Airwaterice to seek a solution. Some of their suggestions are to set up an oxidizing station with chlorine or ozone in front of the filters and then filter the rust. Airwaterice say they have a "chemical free iron system from Aqua Systems". I haven't gotten any of the details yet about what sort of system it is, how it works, what sort of media it may use, if it needs maintanence, or its' effectiveness but they say it is around $1,100. For that kind of money, I would expect it to perform the complete path of filtraton. (I half expect it to be a big magnet-heehee).
Yes, it has been a ride to be sure. Sometimes I get so depressed over the whole situation, I can't even look in the direction of the grenhouse when I go outside. I know that I'm going to get this all taken care of at some point, but some days it is just a fight to work up the motivation to walk out there and look at everything when it all seems to be going more backwards than forwards right now.
melev- same thing, the "experts" tell me that the dissolved iron can't be filtered until it turns to rust. The gunk is pretty thick, and slimy too. That pic with all of the orange stuff in the sink was after about five weeks of running. I suppose a kati portion of a DI might catch the dissolved iron, but I already know that even with the size of DI I am running now, I can only get about 300 gallons through it before it has to be recharged. That suggestion from David Mclee, way back in the thread, to have water hauled in from an outside source is starting to look better every day!
H20ENG- I don't know if any kind of mechanical filter will catch the iron. According to our water reports, the iron is erosion from naturally occuring deposits-so it is dissolved iron (ionic iron). Then when it gets oxidized (meets oxygen), it turns to rust. The rust can be filtered, but some of the dissolved iron is going to get to the membranes and will go through the oxidation process there, which will clog the pores of the membrane (and appearantly, fairly quickly). Since my computer is now functonal again, I have been in contact with the folks at Spectrapure and Airwaterice to seek a solution. Some of their suggestions are to set up an oxidizing station with chlorine or ozone in front of the filters and then filter the rust. Airwaterice say they have a "chemical free iron system from Aqua Systems". I haven't gotten any of the details yet about what sort of system it is, how it works, what sort of media it may use, if it needs maintanence, or its' effectiveness but they say it is around $1,100. For that kind of money, I would expect it to perform the complete path of filtraton. (I half expect it to be a big magnet-heehee).
Yes, it has been a ride to be sure. Sometimes I get so depressed over the whole situation, I can't even look in the direction of the grenhouse when I go outside. I know that I'm going to get this all taken care of at some point, but some days it is just a fight to work up the motivation to walk out there and look at everything when it all seems to be going more backwards than forwards right now.
melev- same thing, the "experts" tell me that the dissolved iron can't be filtered until it turns to rust. The gunk is pretty thick, and slimy too. That pic with all of the orange stuff in the sink was after about five weeks of running. I suppose a kati portion of a DI might catch the dissolved iron, but I already know that even with the size of DI I am running now, I can only get about 300 gallons through it before it has to be recharged. That suggestion from David Mclee, way back in the thread, to have water hauled in from an outside source is starting to look better every day!
Treeman
New member
Rick,
I feel for ya man about all that is going on. Chin up and all that stuff
As you all say it will pass.
On the iron. I was told by a filtration expert down here that I could just dump the water in an open tank and the iron would oxidize and settle out. Then take water off of the middle and it would be relatively clean. You need to make sure there is enough flow for the iron to react with the oxygen in the air or slowly bubble Ox with an air stone. But the key they said was to let it settle out. It would create a layer on the bottom that would need to be cleaned out later. It might settle out a lot of other things to.
I feel for ya man about all that is going on. Chin up and all that stuff
As you all say it will pass.On the iron. I was told by a filtration expert down here that I could just dump the water in an open tank and the iron would oxidize and settle out. Then take water off of the middle and it would be relatively clean. You need to make sure there is enough flow for the iron to react with the oxygen in the air or slowly bubble Ox with an air stone. But the key they said was to let it settle out. It would create a layer on the bottom that would need to be cleaned out later. It might settle out a lot of other things to.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
There is a little more good news. I took a piece of the 1/2" PVC square stock I am using for the cross braces on the tanks, drilled the hole in the end and screwed in one of the 1 1/2" stainless steel screws, leaving the head hang out of the end about 3/8" to replicate how much space the tank sidewall and the angle stock takes up. My dad, who I think I mentioned before works in the materials research and testing center lab at the University of Illinois, took the specimen to his lab and put it one of their hydraulic testing machines. They have machines which can push, pull, twist, flex, bend, distort and otherwise stress just about any kind of material in the world and record all of the forces onto a computer. It took 830 (or 850, I can't remember the exact number) pounds of force to pull the screw loose from the PVC stock. When it did pull loose, it only slipped out by 1 thread. Then it took about 700 pounds to pull it out to the next thread, and so on down the line until it was all the way out. The 830 pounds is nearly the entire amount of pressure on one side of the tank. (The force calculations were done by Tschopp). So, long story short, any one of the six screws on each side will hold (almost) the entire pressure on that side of the tank. I am more convinced than ever that these tanks will hold. If I would have been thinking, I would have had him take some pics of the experiment. Remember, I also have some 2" stainless screws on hand as well. I am sure they would be even stronger.
Here is a quote from the force calculations that Steve did for me.
The force on the side panel comes from the water pressure. I get a total force on the side of 873 lb = 24" * 84" * 1/2 * 0.866 psi . Most of this force is held by the glue joint at the bottom. It is hard to guess the exact force on each screw. If the mid depth screws were not there I would say 3/4 on the glue joint and 1/4 on the screws (1/4 * 873 / 3 = 72 lb ea). If the top screws were not there I would say about 1/2 on the glue and 1/2 on the screws (218 lb ea). With both sets of screws the force should be less and concidering the glue on the vertical joints. Maybe 40lb on top screws and 120lb on mid screws, these numbers are heading into guessland pretty fast, but I think they are still close.
Treeman- Thanks man.
I'm assuming you mean to settle the iron/rust out before the RO membranes? Then there just needs to be a pump to send the water to the RO at a decent pressure?
That sounds way to easy to be a solution for this project. :lol:
cseeton- I must have missed your post. Sorry man. I think I may have answered what you asked anyway except about the tanks. After the first one held for that five days, I drained it to build in that overflow box. I haven't filled it back up since then, mainly because I really can't spare the 200 gallons of water right now to fill it and there is also really no point in filling it and firing up another pump when the rock is looking like it is. No way am I going to put that stuff in a tank for propagation.
Here is a quote from the force calculations that Steve did for me.
The force on the side panel comes from the water pressure. I get a total force on the side of 873 lb = 24" * 84" * 1/2 * 0.866 psi . Most of this force is held by the glue joint at the bottom. It is hard to guess the exact force on each screw. If the mid depth screws were not there I would say 3/4 on the glue joint and 1/4 on the screws (1/4 * 873 / 3 = 72 lb ea). If the top screws were not there I would say about 1/2 on the glue and 1/2 on the screws (218 lb ea). With both sets of screws the force should be less and concidering the glue on the vertical joints. Maybe 40lb on top screws and 120lb on mid screws, these numbers are heading into guessland pretty fast, but I think they are still close.
Treeman- Thanks man.
I'm assuming you mean to settle the iron/rust out before the RO membranes? Then there just needs to be a pump to send the water to the RO at a decent pressure?
That sounds way to easy to be a solution for this project. :lol:
cseeton- I must have missed your post. Sorry man. I think I may have answered what you asked anyway except about the tanks. After the first one held for that five days, I drained it to build in that overflow box. I haven't filled it back up since then, mainly because I really can't spare the 200 gallons of water right now to fill it and there is also really no point in filling it and firing up another pump when the rock is looking like it is. No way am I going to put that stuff in a tank for propagation.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Seems like thats what I'm already doing with the LR vat (heehee).
I'll try it. At this point, I have nothing to lose...hmmm, now that I think about it, the best happenings in my life have come from periods when I had nothing to lose!
I did get some of Tetra's deep water air pumps and got two of the skimmers back running tonite. I also plumbed up the new blower. With the silencer diffusers at the end of each run and the gate valve all the way closed, I can get bubbles in about six inches of water. Tommorrow I will put a gate valve in the other end so I can balance out the air and close them equally to get the bubbles down to the two foot mark or so and leave it there. I don't think heat will be a problem with this one as long as I don't try to push skimmers with it. It was running for over an hour and I can still hold my hand on any part of it without feeling much warmth at all.
I'll try it. At this point, I have nothing to lose...hmmm, now that I think about it, the best happenings in my life have come from periods when I had nothing to lose!
I did get some of Tetra's deep water air pumps and got two of the skimmers back running tonite. I also plumbed up the new blower. With the silencer diffusers at the end of each run and the gate valve all the way closed, I can get bubbles in about six inches of water. Tommorrow I will put a gate valve in the other end so I can balance out the air and close them equally to get the bubbles down to the two foot mark or so and leave it there. I don't think heat will be a problem with this one as long as I don't try to push skimmers with it. It was running for over an hour and I can still hold my hand on any part of it without feeling much warmth at all.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
I did discuss with H20ENG about taking the waste water from the RO and running it through a manifold with outlets at each tank leading to coils of tubing (like Tschopp was talking about) to help cool the tanks. This would at least make the RO waste water earn it's keep before running down the drain. Our tap water is about 65 degrees in summer, so it should be able to help quite a bit. He told me he was considering doing something similar except plumbing the manifold straight from the tap to cool his tank and then running the now warmer water to the RO. The tanks would be cooler and the RO gets warmer water which will increase it's efficiency. Sounds like a decent plan to me either way. It wouldn't be very expensive to set up, and I already have most of the materials on hand to do it.
As an experiment of my own, I am trying some diaphragm style deep water air pumps to power the skimmers. They have two outlets each. The air pumps don't look like much, but have a decent output for the price. They were first set up with one outlet running one air stone and one air stone in each of two skimmers. The first couple of days, the two skimmers foamed like crazy, but that was expected with the amount of time they had been dysfunctional and the organic load build up in the vat. They settled down a little after that and didn't appear to be foaming enough, so both lines feeding the air stones went into one skimmer. The one skimmer then had two air stones in it and seemed to be fairly effective, so I set up a second skimmer in the same manner.
The new blower is in place with some piping changes. I had received some advice from a trusted friend about placing a "bellows" at the output of the blower. Simply a section of pipe that is much larger than either the blower outlet or the manifold pipe. I didn't have the room to make a straight run with the suggested six foot length, so the pipe comes out three feet and does a 180 and goes back three feet. From what I could understand, this is supposed to help keep the flow of air through the manifold more constant, it creates a reserve of air at the entrance to the manifold at all times. The bellows then just connects onto the old manifold system. I have seen some freshwater tanks with under gravel filters that had the airline tubing running from the air pump into a jar before going to the air lifts in much the same concept.
I left the blower running overnight the first night with the silencer diffusers on both ends of the manifold and the gate valve wide open. There is no appreciable heat. Placing a hand on the blower by the out put side of the fan housing, it feels only slightly warmer than touching part of the wood framing or one of the tank stands or just about anything else that would be "room" temperature. There is no warmth at all felt in the bellows portion. Now, just hope that it is big enough to power about 200 outlets. The company I bought this one from says I can try it out for thirty days risk free.
That big brass 2" gate valve sure wasn't needed anymore since the need to bleed air out of the system has been greatly reduced. It also seemed like it would be a more balanced system if it had bleed valves on both sides of the manifold instead of on one side only. There were those 3/4" ball valves that had just been cut off of the skimmers' outlets when they were replaced with the gate valves, and they weren't busy at the time, just sitting there doing nothing. Get to work boys!
As an experiment of my own, I am trying some diaphragm style deep water air pumps to power the skimmers. They have two outlets each. The air pumps don't look like much, but have a decent output for the price. They were first set up with one outlet running one air stone and one air stone in each of two skimmers. The first couple of days, the two skimmers foamed like crazy, but that was expected with the amount of time they had been dysfunctional and the organic load build up in the vat. They settled down a little after that and didn't appear to be foaming enough, so both lines feeding the air stones went into one skimmer. The one skimmer then had two air stones in it and seemed to be fairly effective, so I set up a second skimmer in the same manner.
The new blower is in place with some piping changes. I had received some advice from a trusted friend about placing a "bellows" at the output of the blower. Simply a section of pipe that is much larger than either the blower outlet or the manifold pipe. I didn't have the room to make a straight run with the suggested six foot length, so the pipe comes out three feet and does a 180 and goes back three feet. From what I could understand, this is supposed to help keep the flow of air through the manifold more constant, it creates a reserve of air at the entrance to the manifold at all times. The bellows then just connects onto the old manifold system. I have seen some freshwater tanks with under gravel filters that had the airline tubing running from the air pump into a jar before going to the air lifts in much the same concept.
I left the blower running overnight the first night with the silencer diffusers on both ends of the manifold and the gate valve wide open. There is no appreciable heat. Placing a hand on the blower by the out put side of the fan housing, it feels only slightly warmer than touching part of the wood framing or one of the tank stands or just about anything else that would be "room" temperature. There is no warmth at all felt in the bellows portion. Now, just hope that it is big enough to power about 200 outlets. The company I bought this one from says I can try it out for thirty days risk free.
That big brass 2" gate valve sure wasn't needed anymore since the need to bleed air out of the system has been greatly reduced. It also seemed like it would be a more balanced system if it had bleed valves on both sides of the manifold instead of on one side only. There were those 3/4" ball valves that had just been cut off of the skimmers' outlets when they were replaced with the gate valves, and they weren't busy at the time, just sitting there doing nothing. Get to work boys!
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
The third skimmer has been connected to it's air pump and is just starting to build up a head of foam. The vat is looking terrible again.
Now if I can get the water taken care of, I'll be right back where I was six weeks ago. After sending them my water reports, the two companies I was talking to about the extra filtration that will be required, seem to think I can get the job done with a household type sodium exchange water softener. I have my doubts, we have one in our house (it doesn't feed out to the greenhouse) and still get the same gunk building up on the pre filters of the RO unit under the sink. Granted, it's only a 50 gpd model and has a pressure tank with shut off to stop the flow when the tank is full, so there is not near the volume flowing through it. The filters in the house RO lasted about four months of making water for top offs, kool aid, dog bowls and ice. I don't use it for top offs anymore since the water coming from the greenhouse filters is better with the DI. (Well, at least it is better when it's working.) The membrane on the RO unit under the sink has been in place for about three years now. The house softener recharges itself every night, but sometimes if there is heavy use, it seems to get depleted. A softener for the greenhouse would have to be one with a pretty big capacity. If I need between 150 - 200 gallons of purified water daily (average), about 600 - 800 needs to be processed by a softener to feed to the RODI. Then there is the question if the sodium will upset the ionic balance of the product water...which it really shouldn't. The RODI should filter out the sodium at least as well, if not better, than it would iron.
Then there are those "chemical free iron removal systems" the one company was talking about. As much as I have learned about them is that they contain some sort of media with an aeration system that automatically back flushes the media and recharges the air pocket every night. They claim it will easily remove ALL of the iron and is a "set it and forget it system". (yeah, right) This will require some more investigation.
The manifold is all drilled, tapped and outlets installed. I figured I better have the means to dump as much air as possible from the blower if it started to get warm or loaded up. This was a very mundane task that gave me allot of time for reflection and some much needed spiritual meditation. Going down 72 feet of pipe and drilling holes every four inches. Then going back and tapping each hole. Then going back and screwing in the outlets. Wouldn't you know it, the battery charger for my cordless drill stopped working and the electric drill I have is not a variable speed, so I had to do the tapping by hand with a wrench. Jeez, what else could go wrong. (Please don't answer that.) I just know in my heart, that someday, this will all have been worth it.
Monday, (5-30-2005), I set up six barrels full of tap water and dropped airlines from 200 outlets into them at a two foot depth. The air would not expel from the airlines at all until the bleed valves were closed so far I had to have my ear right on the valve to hear the bleed air coming out of them. At that point, the blower started to get warm and the air that was being expelled from the lines was a mere dribble. The bubbles were about the size of a garden pea and just floated to the surface with no force at all. Definitely not enough to create circulation inside of an air lift tube. End of experiment. Blower physics is one area where I am definitely lacking in experience and knowledge, but it shouldn't be that difficult for people who design systems everyday to figure this out. I call these folks and tell them exactly what I want to accomplish. Everyone says, oh this is what you need, but it never (or hasn't yet) worked like they say it will. (deep sigh)
I have kept the communication lines open with Jehmco, and now they say they will repair the first blower at no charge, if I pay to ship it back to them. OK, then what? Burn it up in another four months. Maybe it would be fine as long as I'm only trying to run outlets for the air lifts and barrels, but I'm thinking that there just has to be a better solution out there.
I have looked at the rotary vane (roots) blowers. The models I looked at are capable of generating pressures up to 15 psi with volumes comparable to the regenerative blowers. Some of them are oil filled, so they would not be appropriate in this application. The ones that are not oil filled are carbon filled and are reputed to clog air stones with the carbon dust they generate. I may need to revisit some of my old research and see if anyone has a filter system for the roots blowers, or if someone is making a better model now. If memory serves me, they are about double the cost of the regenerative style.
I did manage to get the fourth skimmer up and running. The Tetra-Tec deep water air pumps are operating decently, but could be better. I have a distributor checking on getting me a luft pump made by Coralife. It is supposed to flow 4 liters of air per minute and has an adjustable rheostat to regulate the air pressure which can go up to 7 psi. The rheostat is supposed to prolong the diaphragm life. Most air pumps restrict the diaphragm as a means to help regulate the pressure. The rheostat regulates the electricity instead, which means less wear on the diaphragm. Only set back, they cost about three times that of the deep water model running right now.
Now if I can get the water taken care of, I'll be right back where I was six weeks ago. After sending them my water reports, the two companies I was talking to about the extra filtration that will be required, seem to think I can get the job done with a household type sodium exchange water softener. I have my doubts, we have one in our house (it doesn't feed out to the greenhouse) and still get the same gunk building up on the pre filters of the RO unit under the sink. Granted, it's only a 50 gpd model and has a pressure tank with shut off to stop the flow when the tank is full, so there is not near the volume flowing through it. The filters in the house RO lasted about four months of making water for top offs, kool aid, dog bowls and ice. I don't use it for top offs anymore since the water coming from the greenhouse filters is better with the DI. (Well, at least it is better when it's working.) The membrane on the RO unit under the sink has been in place for about three years now. The house softener recharges itself every night, but sometimes if there is heavy use, it seems to get depleted. A softener for the greenhouse would have to be one with a pretty big capacity. If I need between 150 - 200 gallons of purified water daily (average), about 600 - 800 needs to be processed by a softener to feed to the RODI. Then there is the question if the sodium will upset the ionic balance of the product water...which it really shouldn't. The RODI should filter out the sodium at least as well, if not better, than it would iron.
Then there are those "chemical free iron removal systems" the one company was talking about. As much as I have learned about them is that they contain some sort of media with an aeration system that automatically back flushes the media and recharges the air pocket every night. They claim it will easily remove ALL of the iron and is a "set it and forget it system". (yeah, right) This will require some more investigation.
The manifold is all drilled, tapped and outlets installed. I figured I better have the means to dump as much air as possible from the blower if it started to get warm or loaded up. This was a very mundane task that gave me allot of time for reflection and some much needed spiritual meditation. Going down 72 feet of pipe and drilling holes every four inches. Then going back and tapping each hole. Then going back and screwing in the outlets. Wouldn't you know it, the battery charger for my cordless drill stopped working and the electric drill I have is not a variable speed, so I had to do the tapping by hand with a wrench. Jeez, what else could go wrong. (Please don't answer that.) I just know in my heart, that someday, this will all have been worth it.
Monday, (5-30-2005), I set up six barrels full of tap water and dropped airlines from 200 outlets into them at a two foot depth. The air would not expel from the airlines at all until the bleed valves were closed so far I had to have my ear right on the valve to hear the bleed air coming out of them. At that point, the blower started to get warm and the air that was being expelled from the lines was a mere dribble. The bubbles were about the size of a garden pea and just floated to the surface with no force at all. Definitely not enough to create circulation inside of an air lift tube. End of experiment. Blower physics is one area where I am definitely lacking in experience and knowledge, but it shouldn't be that difficult for people who design systems everyday to figure this out. I call these folks and tell them exactly what I want to accomplish. Everyone says, oh this is what you need, but it never (or hasn't yet) worked like they say it will. (deep sigh)
I have kept the communication lines open with Jehmco, and now they say they will repair the first blower at no charge, if I pay to ship it back to them. OK, then what? Burn it up in another four months. Maybe it would be fine as long as I'm only trying to run outlets for the air lifts and barrels, but I'm thinking that there just has to be a better solution out there.
I have looked at the rotary vane (roots) blowers. The models I looked at are capable of generating pressures up to 15 psi with volumes comparable to the regenerative blowers. Some of them are oil filled, so they would not be appropriate in this application. The ones that are not oil filled are carbon filled and are reputed to clog air stones with the carbon dust they generate. I may need to revisit some of my old research and see if anyone has a filter system for the roots blowers, or if someone is making a better model now. If memory serves me, they are about double the cost of the regenerative style.
I did manage to get the fourth skimmer up and running. The Tetra-Tec deep water air pumps are operating decently, but could be better. I have a distributor checking on getting me a luft pump made by Coralife. It is supposed to flow 4 liters of air per minute and has an adjustable rheostat to regulate the air pressure which can go up to 7 psi. The rheostat is supposed to prolong the diaphragm life. Most air pumps restrict the diaphragm as a means to help regulate the pressure. The rheostat regulates the electricity instead, which means less wear on the diaphragm. Only set back, they cost about three times that of the deep water model running right now.
Rick,
Won't you be running those Lufts at full bore anyway, so why pay for the rheostats?
I have used both Fugi and Gast regenerative blowers rated at 60" and they lasted for years in a nasty salty environment. They were around $500 each, and about 2HP guys, though.
How about some of the linear compressors on ebay- rated at 5 psi, 4 cfm, 160w for less than $100. Might try one or 2 of those with the $ you would spend on the Lufts. Way more volume.
Keep your head up
Chris
Won't you be running those Lufts at full bore anyway, so why pay for the rheostats?
I have used both Fugi and Gast regenerative blowers rated at 60" and they lasted for years in a nasty salty environment. They were around $500 each, and about 2HP guys, though.
How about some of the linear compressors on ebay- rated at 5 psi, 4 cfm, 160w for less than $100. Might try one or 2 of those with the $ you would spend on the Lufts. Way more volume.
Keep your head up
Chris
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
yeah, prolly right about that. I just wanted to see if the distributor could get me one of the luft pumps to check it out compared to the ones I am running now because they came highly recommended.
Personally, I am pretty satisfied with the linear piston pump I am running on my home aquarium's skimmer (4' tall DIY). I can't even remember all of the diaphragm style pumps that have burnt up on that skimmer, seems like they never last more than a year. The ones being used in the greenhouse right now are supposed to be designed for deep water applications, so I thought I could give them a try.
I am still considering letting the first blower be repaired. I tried to get the screws out of the front of the fan casing, but appearantly, those guys at Nash-Elmo didn't want anybody getting in there!! I really liked the force at which it bubbled, and MAYBE it would be ok if it is just running the lifts and prep barrels. It is a 70 cfm and really made some action in the water with it's bubbles. Draw back there being it was an electricity hog. IIRC it pulls about 16 amps (about $100 a month) in electricity. Might not use as much when it's not pushing down into the skimmers though.
Personally, I am pretty satisfied with the linear piston pump I am running on my home aquarium's skimmer (4' tall DIY). I can't even remember all of the diaphragm style pumps that have burnt up on that skimmer, seems like they never last more than a year. The ones being used in the greenhouse right now are supposed to be designed for deep water applications, so I thought I could give them a try.
I am still considering letting the first blower be repaired. I tried to get the screws out of the front of the fan casing, but appearantly, those guys at Nash-Elmo didn't want anybody getting in there!! I really liked the force at which it bubbled, and MAYBE it would be ok if it is just running the lifts and prep barrels. It is a 70 cfm and really made some action in the water with it's bubbles. Draw back there being it was an electricity hog. IIRC it pulls about 16 amps (about $100 a month) in electricity. Might not use as much when it's not pushing down into the skimmers though.
melev
Well-known member
Okay Rick, I'm way out of my element regarding the needs of your project, but is there some type of compressor out there to create the PSI you need to move air out of the 216 outlets? A typical compressor tends to release oil, but I have a feeling you could put some type of oil trapping filter before it goes into the main air tube.
Reading your thread at times seems more morose than Edgar Allen Poe.
(Just kidding, folks. Trying to lighten the mood a tad.)
Reading your thread at times seems more morose than Edgar Allen Poe.
(Just kidding, folks. Trying to lighten the mood a tad.)
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
/shrugs
That's alright man, appearantly, I'm out of my league too, or else I would just go tell one of these companies what I want and buy it. (Then tell the rest of these companies where to put it.) This is one area that I definitely lack experience and knowledge. But I can guarantee, that by the time it is all said and done, I will find someone who can be trusted and learn it!
I'm sure a compressor would easily be able to provide the psi. I have never done any research on the kind you are talking about. (I assume you mean the piston type typically associated with pneumatic tools like for a mechanics' garage.) I don't know how much volume of flow they can provide and maintain while the piston is loading up the pressure tank, how much electricity they consume, pricing, noise levels, sizing... allot of factors to consider. I think that they fluctuate somewhat (or more) to get the pressure up to a certain level, then let the pressure run out until a lesser level when the piston fires back up again. I wouldn't think that the varying pressures would be too good for skimmers or lift tubes. Right now, the skimmers are temporarily running decently with the cheap diaphragm pumps. My main focus needs to go to the water quality issue or else this rock may never be able to be brought back from the dead if I can't start doing some massive water changes.
Edgar Allen Poe... heehee. Got any opium?
P.S. Are you attending IMAC?
That's alright man, appearantly, I'm out of my league too, or else I would just go tell one of these companies what I want and buy it. (Then tell the rest of these companies where to put it.) This is one area that I definitely lack experience and knowledge. But I can guarantee, that by the time it is all said and done, I will find someone who can be trusted and learn it!
I'm sure a compressor would easily be able to provide the psi. I have never done any research on the kind you are talking about. (I assume you mean the piston type typically associated with pneumatic tools like for a mechanics' garage.) I don't know how much volume of flow they can provide and maintain while the piston is loading up the pressure tank, how much electricity they consume, pricing, noise levels, sizing... allot of factors to consider. I think that they fluctuate somewhat (or more) to get the pressure up to a certain level, then let the pressure run out until a lesser level when the piston fires back up again. I wouldn't think that the varying pressures would be too good for skimmers or lift tubes. Right now, the skimmers are temporarily running decently with the cheap diaphragm pumps. My main focus needs to go to the water quality issue or else this rock may never be able to be brought back from the dead if I can't start doing some massive water changes.
Edgar Allen Poe... heehee. Got any opium?
P.S. Are you attending IMAC?
melev
Well-known member
No, I attend MACNA each year. One is enough for me.
When it comes to using a compressor to spray varnish on cabinetry, steady flow is key. If you own a pancake compressor, which holds 3g of air at the most, it won't keep up. However, you can use that same compressor to fill up a 10g air tank, and from there you run your spray gun. The tank provides steady consisent PSI, and the compressor tops off that tank as necessary.
Assuming this is even plausible, clean oil-free air, that would be the solution. I do agree that there would be a noise factor, which I didn't think about. All I was trying to do was come up with air pressure.
This has been a very trying and expensive project for you. Have you been talking with Anthony C. about this current issue, to see if he has any suggestions or specific solutions?
When it comes to using a compressor to spray varnish on cabinetry, steady flow is key. If you own a pancake compressor, which holds 3g of air at the most, it won't keep up. However, you can use that same compressor to fill up a 10g air tank, and from there you run your spray gun. The tank provides steady consisent PSI, and the compressor tops off that tank as necessary.
Assuming this is even plausible, clean oil-free air, that would be the solution. I do agree that there would be a noise factor, which I didn't think about. All I was trying to do was come up with air pressure.
This has been a very trying and expensive project for you. Have you been talking with Anthony C. about this current issue, to see if he has any suggestions or specific solutions?
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Yes. He said he used one "hobby style" blower (like an EG Rotron or a Gast) to run all of his prop tanks, quarantine tanks, central filtration, water prep vats, live rock vessels, and had a regulated line to inflate the poly film of the greenhouse itself. He did say that he thought my 1.15 horse power blower (the first one) was "huge" and thought the size itself lended to the heat issue. He wasn't specific (couldn't remember) the size/ output of his. Also told me he used the luft pumps for the skimmers, one pump per skimmer. Back then, the lufts were made by Tetra. The only ones I could find are Coralife. He also said he was very surprised at the lack of pressure from the first blower, but all of the ones I have seen in the range of 1/4 - 1.5 horse power are only rated at 1 - 2 psi.
You know more about compressors than I do. I haven't done any research on them just because the people I talked to who have done this sort of project hadn't ever mentioned using them.
I can't explain why this part of the setup is giving me so many troubles. I "think" I know why the first one had problems, because I was trying to get about 4 - 6 psi out of a blower meant to produce about 1.5 - 2 psi. The smaller blower I have right now is supposed to be able to supply around 300 outlets for air lift tubes but I can't get it to supply 200 with anything but a dribble. Like I said, I talk with these reps from companies who have decent/ solid reputations and either get no recommendations, or very outlandish recommendations (ones that even a second grader could tell would be way over the top) like the company who suggested I use three seperate blowers with one of them weighing 426 lbs. The companies I have received what seemed to me to be reasonable quotes have not worked out, either getting too hot or not even getting close to providing enough air.
I did shoot an email off to Aquatic Eco and have received a promising reply. I hadn't contacted them before because they are more expensive than everybody else. They sell/ stock so many products geared towards aquculture that customers end up paying for the convenience of "getting it all in one place". If they can solve this problem with a guarantee, I wouldn't mind paying more to get this all taken care of. Their initial response recommended a blower that is even a little bigger than my first one just to run the tanks and prep barrels, but wanted more details about my manifold, air line tubing and the amount of circulation I wanted for the tanks. They recommended a linear piston pump to run all the skimmers. We should see what happens in the next few days.
MACNA is in your neck of the woods this year, isn't it?
You know more about compressors than I do. I haven't done any research on them just because the people I talked to who have done this sort of project hadn't ever mentioned using them.
I can't explain why this part of the setup is giving me so many troubles. I "think" I know why the first one had problems, because I was trying to get about 4 - 6 psi out of a blower meant to produce about 1.5 - 2 psi. The smaller blower I have right now is supposed to be able to supply around 300 outlets for air lift tubes but I can't get it to supply 200 with anything but a dribble. Like I said, I talk with these reps from companies who have decent/ solid reputations and either get no recommendations, or very outlandish recommendations (ones that even a second grader could tell would be way over the top) like the company who suggested I use three seperate blowers with one of them weighing 426 lbs. The companies I have received what seemed to me to be reasonable quotes have not worked out, either getting too hot or not even getting close to providing enough air.
I did shoot an email off to Aquatic Eco and have received a promising reply. I hadn't contacted them before because they are more expensive than everybody else. They sell/ stock so many products geared towards aquculture that customers end up paying for the convenience of "getting it all in one place". If they can solve this problem with a guarantee, I wouldn't mind paying more to get this all taken care of. Their initial response recommended a blower that is even a little bigger than my first one just to run the tanks and prep barrels, but wanted more details about my manifold, air line tubing and the amount of circulation I wanted for the tanks. They recommended a linear piston pump to run all the skimmers. We should see what happens in the next few days.
MACNA is in your neck of the woods this year, isn't it?
Rick, I've gone through so many air pumps, and the Luft pump is the only hobby air pump I've ever used that is worth anything. I can't imagine it would be pratical to use them in your situation (you would need a lot of them) but it might not hurt to have a couple on hand for back-up/ odds-n-ends usage.
The one I have is from Coralife, but I think they are the same "Luft" pump that has been around forever.
Dan
The one I have is from Coralife, but I think they are the same "Luft" pump that has been around forever.
Dan
camarojweed
New member
Rick, i have been following this thread for a few months now and feel for ya, I think Marc is on to something here, I have used large air compressors for years and this seems like the best options for you, you could pick up a large one at HD or other supple stores, yes the noise will be loud when it fires up, but you could also turn it off while you are working in the greenhouse so it is not deafening with out any real sacrific of pressure. The other part Marc mentioned is very important and that is an inline oil/sediment filter w/ regulator. you can set the tank to hold, lets say 150psi in the tank and let the regulator bleed at 10psi and never see any variation on the output and your skimmers would work perfectly. The concepth is similar to the CO2 tanks for CA reactors, but the CO2 would have the ability to be topped off when every the pressure dropped. The other advantage of the regulator on the output is you could dial in the exact pressure you need to get the best output for your skimmers.
Just some food for thought, but in the end this might be a cheaper (an less work) option even thought the up front cost will seem high...and even with a loss of power the large 10cu ft tank will provide you air for quite a while...
Jason
Just some food for thought, but in the end this might be a cheaper (an less work) option even thought the up front cost will seem high...and even with a loss of power the large 10cu ft tank will provide you air for quite a while...
Jason
Rick,
"Theres no replacement for displacement" as the old saying goes.
I would not go with a standard (reciprocating) compressor. They are way less efficient and will never last as long as a ring compressor (blower). None of the compressors commonly available will be rated for continuous duty, you'll pay BIG bucks for those.
I bought a replacement blower for one of our critical systems from mcmaster- a Gast, that came in 2 days and is still running today. It was a beast, at about 2HP and rated for 60"
Have you also looked at AREA blowers (www.area.com?). They do lake and aquaculture stuff and their site had a lot of info, IIRC.
AES knows their stuff, too, but as mentioned gets a premium price for it. I have also used Keeton aquaculture in CO.
One thing you could do is try to set all your stones at the same depth for each blower. Use a stronger blower for the deep skimmers and a smaller one for the shallow tubs. You will get the most air output this way. You really lose output trying to go deeper with just a few outlets.
HTH
Chris
"Theres no replacement for displacement" as the old saying goes.
I would not go with a standard (reciprocating) compressor. They are way less efficient and will never last as long as a ring compressor (blower). None of the compressors commonly available will be rated for continuous duty, you'll pay BIG bucks for those.
I bought a replacement blower for one of our critical systems from mcmaster- a Gast, that came in 2 days and is still running today. It was a beast, at about 2HP and rated for 60"
Have you also looked at AREA blowers (www.area.com?). They do lake and aquaculture stuff and their site had a lot of info, IIRC.
AES knows their stuff, too, but as mentioned gets a premium price for it. I have also used Keeton aquaculture in CO.
One thing you could do is try to set all your stones at the same depth for each blower. Use a stronger blower for the deep skimmers and a smaller one for the shallow tubs. You will get the most air output this way. You really lose output trying to go deeper with just a few outlets.
HTH
Chris
melev
Well-known member
MACNA this year is in Washington DC, and next year will be in Houston (4 hours from here).
Regarding my idea, that is all it is. If Chris thinks it isn't a good idea, and Calfo thinks I'm crazy, don't waste your money trying it out. I do like to problem-solve, and that seemed like a plausible theory.
If the companies you talk to state it should work as is, then it must be something in the way it is constructed currently. I would go over all of the connections, and look for any errors or even leaks. Did you pour soapy water over all the glued joints and threaded connections to make sure the air has no where to go except out of the individual air nipples? I know soapy water isn't good for our livestock, but you should be able to rinse off any residue before you get to the next stage of this project.
It almost seems like you have some type of obstruction. Like a towel stuffed in a pipe before it was glued.
Regarding my idea, that is all it is. If Chris thinks it isn't a good idea, and Calfo thinks I'm crazy, don't waste your money trying it out. I do like to problem-solve, and that seemed like a plausible theory.
If the companies you talk to state it should work as is, then it must be something in the way it is constructed currently. I would go over all of the connections, and look for any errors or even leaks. Did you pour soapy water over all the glued joints and threaded connections to make sure the air has no where to go except out of the individual air nipples? I know soapy water isn't good for our livestock, but you should be able to rinse off any residue before you get to the next stage of this project.
It almost seems like you have some type of obstruction. Like a towel stuffed in a pipe before it was glued.
