let the insanity begin

[rick rottet]

Thanks for your kind words, interest, and for the link.

Hmmm.... It would definitely remove the amount of iron I have in the water. It looks like that one works on an ion exchange principle (unless I am totally misreading it). The "greensand" media is charged/recharged by potassium permanganate- which gets exchanged for Fe. Works on the same principle as a household water softener but uses potassium salts instead of sodium salts.
I have talked with a few suppliers about softeners. This is one avenue that might work, but I think requires more work and maintenance. My experience with our household water softener is that they can tend to "run out" of their charge on a day when larger quantities of water pass through them. Then we either get unsoftened water or the unit has to be recharged manually (if you happen to notice that it has depleted it's capacity). They also need to be filled with the salt- extra purchases, then transporting and lugging big bags of salt down the cellar stairs. They need to be acid cleaned and sanitized at certain intervals as well. Plus I still get the same stains on my prefilters of the RO unit that is under the kitchen sink. That membrane has been in place for nearly three years, but it is only a 50 gpd unit that at most runs 25 gallons in a week.

The iron removal systems I have been discussing with suppliers use an aspiration valve to inject air into the water, turning it to rust, then filtering it out also with media. They require no charging/recharging. They backflush every night automatically. They are really supposed to be plug-n-play/ set it and forget it. Cost is more than double of the one you showed me though. They are also supposed to take care of the "iron bacteria" which makes the orange gunk so thick and gooey.
I did consider using the vat like Treeman suggested, but I think it might be limiting as far as the amount of space/time I have.
I don't think this issue is going to get resolved in the immediate future. It will probably be a few weeks before I decide on a purchase since IMAC is this weekend (where maybe I can get some input about solutions) and then I have some family plans the week following.

 

[BrianPlankis]

Rick,

I just finished reading this whole thread and I wanted to say it is great and I love all the DIY stuff you are doing. I was pretty proud of putting a GFCI outlet in for my tank and not electrocuting myself until I read this thread!

Sorry to hear about all your problems, I wish I could help, but I have no knowledge in these areas. Good luck...now I'm back to lurking....

B.

 

[rick rottet]

Glad to have you along, thanks for the encouragement.

Seems like maybe these "problems" have actually served a purpose. I'm sorta glad that there aren't any tanks running at the moment. With all of the temp control issues with the warmer (hot) weather, filtration issues, blower system, drainage, etc. If tanks were running right now, it would really be a mess. Much better to be able to fix all of this stuff now to have it ready for long term.

 

[LegoZ81]

let us know what your temps look like over the next week or so... ambient temps are supposed to be pretty toasty.

 

[tapper of spines]

cseeton- go to bed and get some sleep man :lol: I would know even less about using LN than I do about compressors, but just to play the devil's hand and the interested fool... How much is it going to cost, in electricity or propane, to heat the LN? (and isn't N a gas at atmospheric temps? so maybe I should be asking how much is it going to cost to keep the LN @ -200 C.) What kind of piping equipment am I going to need for the LN? Expansion tanks? Reserve systems? How fast does the pressure fall off as the nitrogen is depleted? Special storage considerations? Hazardous material? Fire/explosion hazards? How will N affect the ability of the bubbles in the skimmer to attract proteins? (I do know that our atmosphere is like 78 % N and I believe it is mostly diatomic (N2) but straight LN might have some affect on surfactant abilities). 'nuff said.

In his defense, he's not totally off his rocker. You don't need to heat LN, the air around you is hot enough to heat is. You don't need to actively cool it either, you just have to keep it at pressure, if you use it fast enough. You will need specialized piping and expansion equipment. More than you're likely to want to invest.

However, perhaps just a couple of N2 bottles? A couple of 1500 psi bottles would probably last you a while, though I haven't worked out the calculation myself. Hook them up to a regulator and into your system. All you really need is a manifold to make sure you never lose pressure (switches from one bottle to the other if the other empties). Liquid nitrogen is cheaper than bottled water, so gaseous N2 can't be that expensive.

HTH
TOS

 

[rick rottet]

Eric Borneman showed some test results in one of his presentations at IMAC this past weekend. He was testing different methods of supporting/ maintaining oxygen levels in the aquarium. One of the methods he used to LOWER oxygen, was to bubble nitrogen into the aquarium.

TOS- I see you list magnetohydrodynamics in your occupation line. Would you know if there is a way to use magnetics to remove this dissolved (ionic) iron from the water supply?

 

[tapper of spines]

Originally posted by rick rottet TOS- I see you list magnetohydrodynamics in your occupation line. Would you know if there is a way to use magnetics to remove this dissolved (ionic) iron from the water supply?

Not sure about that one, but I'm inclined to say that such a technique doesn't exist. The force of a magnetic field on the magnetic moment of an iron nucleus would be overwhelmed by fluid resistance, not to mention random electrostatic effects on the charge of the ion.

Did Borneman suggest why N2 lowers O2 levels?

HTH
TOS

 

[rick rottet]

lego- water temps are roughly comparable to the outside air temp right now. The temp inside the greenhouse is easily over one hundred with all the shutters open and the fans running plus a 24" box fan pointing across the LR vat. The water temp seems to stay pretty steady at about 6 - 8 degrees below the air temp inside the grenhouse. I am not making this priority one at the moment since the water quality issue HAS to be taken care of first before I would be willing to do anything with the tanks. With just LR in the vat, I'm not too worried if the cyano overheats (not likely anyway) and the nitrifying bacteria on the rock should be OK.

One thing I did notice was that I was mistaken about the swimming pool temp (either that or the old thermometer was 4 -5 degrees off). With the outside temp over 90 all weekend, the pool is sitting at 84 in the late afternoon. Even if I plumbed a loop into the pool water and there was enough volume of water in the pool to suck up the heat from the tanks, the best I could hope for would be to have that same temp in the tanks. Probably a little higher than I would want to keep the tank water. 84 is pushing the upper limits and doesn't leave much of a margin for safety in case of a failure of some kind.

I still think that our groundwater has the best potential. It is about 65 in summer. I could set up a geothermal loop like some of the guys in Florida have. The loops seem to be inefficient down there due to the higher ground water temps, but up here would work much better. I sure would hate to have to rent the excavator again and dig several hundred feet of trenches in my backyard though. Still thinking about using the RO waste water for a cooling loop or running the tap water through a loop and then to the RO. Using the waste water might be limiting due to the lack of volume. Running straight from the tap, I would be wasting allot of water because the RO can only accept so much at a time.

I did get a 30% shade cloth for the entire greenhouse, so I want to see what, if anything, that contributes to heat reduction.

 

[rick rottet]

originally posted by tapper of spines
Not sure about that one, but I'm inclined to say that such a technique doesn't exist. The force of a magnetic field on the magnetic moment of an iron nucleus would be overwhelmed by fluid resistance, not to mention random electrostatic effects on the charge of the ion.

Just my luck, those darn uncooperative iron nuclei.

Borneman probably said why, but I don't remember. Must have been nodding off about that time. (As a semi-uneducated guess, I would say displacement... /Rick shrugs .)

 

[AcroSteve]

Not sure about that one, but I'm inclined to say that such a technique doesn't exist. The force of a magnetic field on the magnetic moment of an iron nucleus would be overwhelmed by fluid resistance, not to mention random electrostatic effects on the charge of the ion.

HTH
TOS

Fooey!!


Just get bigger magnets.

 

[rick rottet]

Yeah, when all else fails, hit it with a bigger hammer!

I like that.

 

[Karl K]

I may be able to chime in here on your air pump problem.

I do work at a Fisheries Laboratory. They use air to provide circulation in all of their tanks. The entire operation, which is huge, is fed off of two compressors. These are a non-contact type compressor that uses water as the seal instead of oil. They work quite nicely. They alternate running between the two of them. When one runs and pressurizes the system, the other one will run when they are called for again. They will bring the pressure from 30psi to 70 psi in about 2 minutes. They then sit idle for about 4 minutes before being needed again. They are a little more complicated than using the blower like you have, but for the pressure you will be able to generate, you can't beat it.

If you used these pumps and added a 120g pressure tank to store the air, you could cyle the compressor less, which is a very good thing for the motor and for your electricity bill.

I'm sure you wouldn't need the compressors to be this large. Keep in mind that these are 30hp 3phase 208V motors that draw 90amps that use a soft start to get them spinning. The compressors are seperate from the motor, so a smaller compressor with a single phase motor in the 1.5 to 2HP range could be found.

Karl

 

[rick rottet]

Hmmmm.... opened up a can of worms here my friend. This idea sounds good to me so far.

Do you have a manufacturer's name? Website?

How loud are they? (is the motor all you hear?)

How many tanks and outlets do they run with the larger unit?

Must this "water seal" be replenished? What other sort of maintenance do they require (if any)?

Anything I forgot, feel free to add in.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Karl K]

Here's a couple sites I found quickly regarding this subject. Not exactly what I worked on, but similar idea.

I'll see if I can get some more info next time I work out at the Lab.


http://www.gardnerdenver.com/GDCorpPortal/RouteRequest?route=to&id=2687

http://www.allproducts.com/ee/sunmines/04-tc100.html

http://www.opcon.se/subStart.asp?pageID=446&catId2=129&ContentID=17&subPageClick=1

Karl

 

[rick rottet]

We must have been posting at the same time. Thanks for the links.

 

[rick rottet]

Oh yeah, tapper of spines... I don't know how familiar you are with the forums, but Eric does have his own forum in the "expert forums" (or at least he moderates it). It's named the "coral forum".

I'm sure he would be more than happy to answer your question about why the N lowered O2 if you are interested.

I just didn't want to leave you hanging with that crappy answer of mine.

 

[boxer85]

instead of digging miles of trenches, dig a few holes straight down. your pump will be smaller than if you dug horizontally, due to gravity working for you 50% of the time, and you don't tear up your yard nearly as much.

i still say that ground temp is pretty constant at 55, esp at lower depths.

 

[Karl K]

The water seal has to have a continuous supply of water while the compressor is running.

 

[H20ENG]

Those compressors, (nice!) especially with a soft start will be mega bucks (probably at least $8k).
Screw compressors kick butt, but are loud. Ever hear a big V-8 engine with a blower? Thats a screw compressor. Used extensively in refrigeration, too.
For your scale of operation, I'd still stick to a linear or ring compressor (blower).

 

[Treeman]

Rick,
If I remember right it displaced the O2 with carbon dioxide. I do not know the reaction that takes place. He just said it as thats how he got rid of the O2.