Lets share what you got out of last nights meeting with FWC, and DACS

[AquamanE]

As many of you know at our meeting last night we had FWC, and DACS there.

DACS the division of agriculture (including aquaculture) is responsible (one of many) to certify aquaculture facilities.

FWC is the enforcement agency in Florida for rules related to many things, including the marine environment etc....

As soon as I have a chance ill post on here the links to the articles they recommended for us.

Lets try to keep it on this thread for others that coudnt go to learn.

 

[AquamanE]

In another thread Lacy said:

It will just confuse you more.
In order to sell a frag you have to have an aquaculture license (100.00) and a retail license (75.00). They didn't say, but Broward county will probably want you to have a business license also. This applies to every hobbyist even Joe Schmo who wants to sell 50.00 of frags a year. Jeff from Ft. Myers asked if they could have a blank permit/license for a frag swap that would cover everyone for that swap.I think they are going to look into it. This only applies to non commercial people. Their definition of commercial people are people who have a store front, website or brokers (I think they said brokers). Many questions were asked and at times they looked as confused as us.

You also need documentation of where the coral came from and what species it is. What!! Most stores don't even have a clue as to what species it is. I am talking about stores such as Beverly's, Petco and even a lot of reef stores don't even know. Keep your receipts and write down the info that you can. Eddie asked what if we bought a coral from an individual in another state where they are not required to have permits and licenses? Again a blank stare and I think they might have said to write things down. Sorry, but it goes on and on. So many questions and so few answers.

I think they are opening up a can of worms without having all the answers. I think they should spend more time catching the bad guys who are really up to no good and leave us hobbyist alone. IMO it sounds like a lot of manpower is going to be wasted on us hobbyist. :headwalls:

 

[AquamanE]

In another thread its Frank said:

Rene, they also said that the rules were intended to stop people from going around the system. The fwc nor dacs will come after someone like you or me.
They said that if you're going commercial, you need docs as to origin of your corals or what you're selling.

Basically, Ina nutshell, if you feel that you are borderline business, you need these. If you're a hobbyist, they have no intentions of causing problems.

 

[mrx66699]

It doesn't have to be this complicated....
This is the real world and here it is in simple real world terms......again it's just business nothing personal from the FWC and DACS (think of a hometown hero when he's too old to play anymore and they ship him out of town after years of telling him they love him)

If your doing business, selling on Fbook, Craigs, ebay, frag swaps, online auctions lol (you know who you are) GET PROPER LICENSING, pay your taxes and be covered.....If you're trading a friend, stop the brain surgury thoughts.....It's really not as confusing as some want to make it.

As far as the questions that supposedly go on and on without answers (REALLY)..... IMO that's only for those that don't want to HEAR the answers .....If at any time you think there is even a sliver of a chance you're going to sell something..... get your paperwork in order get it documented and have your proper licenses. If a store or seller doesn't know what it is (TELL THEM).....TELL them and get it written down so you have an origin. Now when you sell it and an official questions it, there is no excuses. You have your license and your paperwork and now you're covered. Let those that CHOOSE to play innocent (will refrain from saying trying to play dumb) act like it was too confusing to know better get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Don't take a chance that is unneeded....There are always going to be rules and regulations to follow in a business. This for some has just been an unregulated wild west show and now the sheriff is coming to town and some are not happy.

 

[Hyperion1337]

So basically they are forcing people who want to sell surplus corals that they have to pretty much become retail? I saw that having one of those license allows the holder to buy from wholesale. Its really going to cause a lot of issues and strains between stores, wholesalers, and hobbyists who just sell every now and then.

TL;DR - The enforcement of having retail license will cause a lot of problems down the line for this hobby.

 

[mrx66699]

TL;DR - The enforcement of having retail license will cause a lot of problems down the line for this hobby.

Why is that....If you sell puppies as an above board business......besides one here or there you need a business license and are regulated. The pet companies are still taking in billions a year in sales.

 

[Hyperion1337]

Well simply put it like this. Lets say that I want to sell some frags of corals that are overcrowding my tank. I would have to buy a license which isnt a big deal, but it allows me to purchase corals from wholesalers right? Now I can just go to a wholesaler as a hobbyist (but has a license) and purchase straight from the wholesaler instead of through a local store. This causes the stores to lose customers since now the customers can go directly to the wholesalers and purchase live stock and dry goods at the wholesale price so why would they want to spend more at the LFS? This creates a strain between stores and wholesalers as the store owners that see you in the wholesalers will complain to the owner of the wholesaler and the wholesalers will either raise prices for you or just blatantly kick you out and prevent you from entering since the store owners have more power since they purchase a lot more from wholesalers compared to a hobbyist with a license.

But I guess business is business right? Cant change that

 

[AquamanE]

Hyperion- Of course its all about business. FWC has to enforce laws that where NOT created for the "hobbyist", they where created for commercial enterprises. But "hobbyists" are selling, and selling a lot, is that not a commercial enterprise?

Your worried about the wholesaler vs retailer debate, and getting feelings hurt between each other. BOTH Retailers and Wholesalers KNOW who is a retailer, and who is a hobbyist. IMHO- retailers are more worried about the "hobbyists" than they are the wholesalers. We have dozens if not more "hobbyist" competing against the retailers than anyone.

Good debate, lets keep it up.

BTW- I agree with a lot of what MrX is saying. And thanks MrX for splitting your comments into "readable" sentences and paragraphs, lol.

 

[AquamanE]

Well simply put it like this. Lets say that I want to sell some frags of corals that are overcrowding my tank. I would have to buy a license which isnt a big deal, but it allows me to purchase corals from wholesalers right? Now I can just go to a wholesaler as a hobbyist (but has a license) and purchase straight from the wholesaler instead of through a local store. This causes the stores to lose customers since now the customers can go directly to the wholesalers and purchase live stock and dry goods at the wholesale price so why would they want to spend more at the LFS? This creates a strain between stores and wholesalers as the store owners that see you in the wholesalers will complain to the owner of the wholesaler and the wholesalers will either raise prices for you or just blatantly kick you out and prevent you from entering since the store owners have more power since they purchase a lot more from wholesalers compared to a hobbyist with a license.

But I guess business is business right? Cant change that

BTW- Hyperion- don't confuse a "aquaculture certificate" as that of being a retailer. 2 different things. One allows you to aquaculture, a retail license allows you to sell.

Confusing? YES!!!!

If i understand correctly, you need an aquaculture certificate to cultivate and share according to DACS, but according to FWC you need to have a retail license to sell. Thats what LACY clarified above.

 

[nivram]

Also for the sake of clarification, the aquaculture certificate does not allow you to buy wholesale.

 

[itz frank]

The aquaculture license allows you to grow, like a farmer, and sell to wholesale.
Fwc allows you to sell to consumers.

 

[AquamanE]

Still Lokking for the FWC link, but here is the one form DACS:

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/42950/1056305/Coral_culture_fact_sheet.pdf

 

[rovster]

So to sell frags on here do we have to present a certificate? How about trading frags for dolla bills yo? Sounds ridiculous to me, especially on the small scale side of things. I've never really sold any frags to make any real money, lol.

What does the law say about trading? Gifting? What if we sell frag plugs and include the coral for free?:wildone:

Interesting topic nonetheless, tagging along......carry on

 

[Hyperion1337]

Wait we need an aquaculture license to grow corals now? Technically arent we all farmers? we grow corals to a large size and then when its too large we frag them and distribute them between other reefers for a slight profit. So doesnt every reefer need an aquaculture license then?

 

[Hyperion1337]

I like the idea of trading corals for dolla bills Danny lol.

 

[knukles55]

sounds like im gonna be selling a lot more montis to make up these liscense cost rofl.

 

[SirReefer]

Few questions that might have been answered else where..

How long do this license last before a renewal is needed ?
Also, what would be the penalty for improper documents ?

For example not having documents on corals which I have purchased or traded in the past and not having a license..

I am not opposed to this idea seems like all the hobbyist are missing the point of "frag swap" and seem to wanna charge an arm and a leg for a frag and feel that their frag might be worth more than another frag which is the main reason I am not as involved.

 

[jc-reef]

I missed the meeting due to work....I subscribed to this thread to get some more details on what transpired and what is required under FL law/regs. Please keep it coming! Looking forward to a video link to the FMAS site soon!!

 

[Lacy]

It doesn't have to be this complicated....
This is the real world and here it is in simple real world terms.....

Really Matt? So you understood every answer to every question when even they didn't seem exactly sure? When some of the questions were asked the first guy (didn't pay attention to the names) would look a little confused IMO and then he would look to the other guy for an answer. At times they didn't completely answer some of the questions. Oh, and why do you think some of us aren't living in the real world?

As far as the questions that supposedly go on and on without answers (REALLY).....

Yes really. There was a hobbyist who asked a question and then the "speaker" gave an answer. After he gave the answer the hobbyist asked again because he really didn't answer it. There were more questions with only vague answers. What about the question I asked about some hobbyist selling more frags than others because they have a larger tank? Larger tanks usually have more corals which leads to more fragging and that leads to more selling, trading and giving than someone with a smaller tank. Does that make me a commercial business even though I am doing the same thing as someone with a smaller tank is doing? Maybe larger tanks should only have the same amount of corals that a smaller tank has? Better yet, a larger tank should only have all fish like yours.

Wait till they start regulating selling the fish. Oh, that fish that out grew your tank, it attacks your other fish, etc. Sorry but you need a license to sell, trade or give the fish away. Also a retail license, etc. :lolspin:

IMO that's only for those that don't want to HEAR the answers ....

Sounds like you are referring to me. What I want are solid straight answers. Another hobbyist asked what were the repercussions for selling frags without the licenses? Do you remember what her answer was? Yeah, another vague one.

If a store or seller doesn't know what it is (TELL THEM).....TELL them and get it written down so you have an origin.

Doesn't always mean that you or the store will know exactly which specie it is. Some corals can't be identified unless you have a dead skeleton in front of you.

So to sell frags on here do we have to present a certificate? How about trading frags for dolla bills yo? Sounds ridiculous to me, especially on the small scale side of things. I've never really sold any frags to make any real money, lol.

What does the law say about trading? Gifting? What if we sell frag plugs and include the coral for free?:wildone:

Interesting topic nonetheless, tagging along......carry on

But officer, he is only paying me for the pee cup. It even has a pretty blue lid. :lolspin:
If I understood correctly you still need a license to trade, but maybe I am wrong?

Wait we need an aquaculture license to grow corals now? Technically arent we all farmers? we grow corals to a large size and then when its too large we frag them and distribute them between other reefers for a slight profit. So doesnt every reefer need an aquaculture license then?

From what I understood the answer was yes.

Few questions that might have been answered else where..

How long do this license last before a renewal is needed ?
Also, what would be the penalty for improper documents ?

For example not having documents on corals which I have purchased or traded in the past and not having a license..

I am not opposed to this idea seems like all the hobbyist are missing the point of "frag swap" and seem to wanna charge an arm and a leg for a frag and feel that their frag might be worth more than another frag which is the main reason I am not as involved.

I don't think the renewal question came up. No straight answer on the penalty question. I don't think the hobbyist are missing the point of a frag swap. Sure some people will swap, but not everyone will. The purpose of trimming/fragging back the corals is because there is no more room. Where would you put more corals if you could only swap them?

I don't see anything wrong with people charging a lot of money for a coral if they paid a large sum or not. Why should one person pay big bucks for a highly sought after coral and then sell it to someone for cheap? If someone wants it bad enough and are willing to pay the price then more power to them. Some corals are worth more while others aren't. Buy or don't buy.

Yes, I still think they are opening up a can of worms. Am I against it? No, but I think they need to have answers for all our questions. What about identifying corals? Are they going to have an expert on hand? The reason I say a can of worms is because there are so many different situations that they haven't thought of yet. I think/hope they will get it all figured out, but until then there are going to be a lot of bumps in the road.

Did everyone come out of the meeting understanding everything or am I the only one who didn't?

 

[Miamiangler]

This is how our government works ! They have their Biologists that know what they have learned and then the experts (US) that know how to raise and grow corals . Can they ID and name all the corals NO ! I even have a hard time .That`s one problem to solve and it will not be easy . The simple questions they can answer but the Tuff ones I think they still don't know how to handle them .