Leopard Man
New member
Thank you! Very helpful and informative.
Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing
- Thread starter stony_corals
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Thank you! Very helpful and informative.
Leopard Man
New member
I repeated my dosage of 2.5 teaspoons of sugar with 4.5mls of 90 proof vodka on my 56g tank and my nitrates are now 1 (it went from 25 to 5, then now 1). I have dosed the same again to try and get it to 0.
My fish are definitely hungrier and no sign of scratching from them. I read that dosing too much can cause ich and popeye to fish.
My fish are definitely hungrier and no sign of scratching from them. I read that dosing too much can cause ich and popeye to fish.
Leopard Man
New member
I just read that people get ich and popeye when they use too much vodka and sugar.
Here are some links:
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/dosingsugar.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1260492
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...threadid=898931
Here are some links:
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/dosingsugar.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1260492
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...threadid=898931
Jorgens
New member
Well I did not read the entire thread yet. That will be my reading this evening. I will share my observations with sugar dosing.
200ga system volume. DSB/ASM G-3/20x tank turn over/3x 250w mh/2x 96w actinics PC
Alk 8
Cal 440
TrAtes 3ppm
PO4 0
My system seem to be able to hold trAtes to about 10ppm naturally without sugar. As I was getting a cyano bloom 6 months ago I thought I'd try it. I started with 1/2 tsp a week. Never got the bacterial bloom but trAtes went to 0 after 2 weeks. I now add 1 tsp every month and trAtes never exced 5ppm. normally at 0-1ppm.
I just added a phos ban reactor and am wonderig if this will increase trAte production so I will be on top of that a bit. I also just changed my bulbs to reeflux 12k. I had been using or I should say "tried" the cheap E-bay jobs. My corals we're turning brown after 4 months, growth slowed, and I've slowly lost a few. They seems to start turning white at the bse and go slowly over a 2 week period. This prompted the change in bulbs.
Anyway, I poseted on loosing them and someone made a comment on possible sugar dosing. I have since increased flow and now changed bulbs and willhave to see what happens. But my exp with the Sugar is nothing but good. I didn't notice any color changes. And 1 tsp a month seems to keep things in check. No alge problems, or the like. I beliee my issues are light/flow related.
I have to give a thumbs up for sugar.
200ga system volume. DSB/ASM G-3/20x tank turn over/3x 250w mh/2x 96w actinics PC
Alk 8
Cal 440
TrAtes 3ppm
PO4 0
My system seem to be able to hold trAtes to about 10ppm naturally without sugar. As I was getting a cyano bloom 6 months ago I thought I'd try it. I started with 1/2 tsp a week. Never got the bacterial bloom but trAtes went to 0 after 2 weeks. I now add 1 tsp every month and trAtes never exced 5ppm. normally at 0-1ppm.
I just added a phos ban reactor and am wonderig if this will increase trAte production so I will be on top of that a bit. I also just changed my bulbs to reeflux 12k. I had been using or I should say "tried" the cheap E-bay jobs. My corals we're turning brown after 4 months, growth slowed, and I've slowly lost a few. They seems to start turning white at the bse and go slowly over a 2 week period. This prompted the change in bulbs.
Anyway, I poseted on loosing them and someone made a comment on possible sugar dosing. I have since increased flow and now changed bulbs and willhave to see what happens. But my exp with the Sugar is nothing but good. I didn't notice any color changes. And 1 tsp a month seems to keep things in check. No alge problems, or the like. I beliee my issues are light/flow related.
I have to give a thumbs up for sugar.
smalltime
New member
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweety...osingsugar.html
So all these people dosing Vodka with no ill effects are playing Russin Roulette? Reefers experience the cloudy tank they exceed there tank limit of a carbon source that there tank can handle. If noboddy knows what Zeo is, could this be the same game of Russin Roulette? Does the Zeo method culture only desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria? Lets throw Prodibio method in there also. Any method has risk if you stray from you maintaince schedule. Then Vodka, Zeo and Prodibio methods all put your tank on steriods, artificially growing desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria by addition of carbon sources.
This is directly out of Marine Depots catalog "BIO DIGEST is a hyper-concentrated bacterial compound that satisfies two functions: Installing biological filtration and digesting aquarium waste."
So all these people dosing Vodka with no ill effects are playing Russin Roulette? Reefers experience the cloudy tank they exceed there tank limit of a carbon source that there tank can handle. If noboddy knows what Zeo is, could this be the same game of Russin Roulette? Does the Zeo method culture only desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria? Lets throw Prodibio method in there also. Any method has risk if you stray from you maintaince schedule. Then Vodka, Zeo and Prodibio methods all put your tank on steriods, artificially growing desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria by addition of carbon sources.
This is directly out of Marine Depots catalog "BIO DIGEST is a hyper-concentrated bacterial compound that satisfies two functions: Installing biological filtration and digesting aquarium waste."
I want to make something perfectly clear here. And this is for myself...I speak for no one else. I am not an idiot (not that anyone called me one 
). I know perfectly well how to grow and maintain beautifully colored SPS corals. It's actually quite easy. I'm well versed in the topics of water chemistry, lighting, water flow, etc. I am not here asking why my corals won't grow or why they lack the color I am striving for.
But guess what, I don't want to keep *just* a tank full of SPS like Borneman would like. I don't want to keep one coral head per 30g like Calfo would like. I don't want 5 small fish swimming around my tank like pretty much any "expert" would prefer. No, I want it all, like so many other reefers. Lots of SPS, mixed with all sorts of other corals. Lots of fish. I enjoy pushing the envelope in this hobby of mine. For a reef sitting in a doctor's office waiting room....sure, follow all the rules...have a simple, beautiful, low maintenance tank. But this is my tank; this is something I enjoy tinkering with constantly. Trying to find that perfect balance for a less than perfect combination of things living in my tank is a constant point of interest for me. Do I do things that are blatantly dangerous to my reef? No. Could they eventually be? Yes, hence careful monitoring and observation.
As for that first article you linked, all I have to say is this. If all reefers had that attitude, this hobby would still be cycling FO tanks with UG filters and dead coral skeletons using a handful of potting soil. I'm not arguing the theory...many apply to these situations. I'm simply not going to wait around for a science laboratory to get funding to study these various methods and theories. *Cough cough...will never happen....cough*
So, when all is said and done, am I playing it safe? No. Am I playing Russian roulette? Not IMO. Russian roulette is the person with 20 electrical devices plugged into one circuit, or the guy with a clown trigger in his community reef, or the gal with an anemone in a tank with 7 uncovered powerhead intakes...
). I know perfectly well how to grow and maintain beautifully colored SPS corals. It's actually quite easy. I'm well versed in the topics of water chemistry, lighting, water flow, etc. I am not here asking why my corals won't grow or why they lack the color I am striving for. But guess what, I don't want to keep *just* a tank full of SPS like Borneman would like. I don't want to keep one coral head per 30g like Calfo would like. I don't want 5 small fish swimming around my tank like pretty much any "expert" would prefer. No, I want it all, like so many other reefers. Lots of SPS, mixed with all sorts of other corals. Lots of fish. I enjoy pushing the envelope in this hobby of mine. For a reef sitting in a doctor's office waiting room....sure, follow all the rules...have a simple, beautiful, low maintenance tank. But this is my tank; this is something I enjoy tinkering with constantly. Trying to find that perfect balance for a less than perfect combination of things living in my tank is a constant point of interest for me. Do I do things that are blatantly dangerous to my reef? No. Could they eventually be? Yes, hence careful monitoring and observation.
As for that first article you linked, all I have to say is this. If all reefers had that attitude, this hobby would still be cycling FO tanks with UG filters and dead coral skeletons using a handful of potting soil. I'm not arguing the theory...many apply to these situations. I'm simply not going to wait around for a science laboratory to get funding to study these various methods and theories. *Cough cough...will never happen....cough*
So, when all is said and done, am I playing it safe? No. Am I playing Russian roulette? Not IMO. Russian roulette is the person with 20 electrical devices plugged into one circuit, or the guy with a clown trigger in his community reef, or the gal with an anemone in a tank with 7 uncovered powerhead intakes...
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And as for most of the other info there, much of it pertains to sand beds and vodka dosing. The original thread, which is linked to in the first post of this thread, does emphasize the danger of vodka dosing with a sand bed, and how it must be done very carefully. No disagreement there.
smalltime
New member
I've been dosing Vodka / Sugar for over 2 months now and found no ill effects other than crystal clear water. I'm dosing 5ml of vodka for approx 100g volume of water. Sugar I'm dosing 1/2 a teaspoon every day. I just hooked my calcium reactor back up because the demand finally rose to where I needed it. I also just ordered new bulbs and replaced my R/O cartriges.
I can say before I started making all my changes in equipment to my system, my sps colored up nicley. I had a light brown acro turn a dirty yellow and a dull blue monti turn bright blue. But since making equipment changes, the acro has turned back to brown and the monti has turned to a dull blue.
I was getting postitive results but I have to many varibles on my system now, so I'm months away from getting final results.
Tank description
90g tank 36 x 24 x 24
30g sump
ev-240 skimmer powered by a mag-18 (oversized for tank as recommended)
ozone
mag-12 return
tunze 6080
2 tunze nano 6025 mods
maxi jet 900 mod behind rockwork
approx 60+ ghp turnover rate
When I first started this method my skimmer had to be cleaned twice a week. Now it is back to once a week.
I can say before I started making all my changes in equipment to my system, my sps colored up nicley. I had a light brown acro turn a dirty yellow and a dull blue monti turn bright blue. But since making equipment changes, the acro has turned back to brown and the monti has turned to a dull blue.
I was getting postitive results but I have to many varibles on my system now, so I'm months away from getting final results.
Tank description
90g tank 36 x 24 x 24
30g sump
ev-240 skimmer powered by a mag-18 (oversized for tank as recommended)
ozone
mag-12 return
tunze 6080
2 tunze nano 6025 mods
maxi jet 900 mod behind rockwork
approx 60+ ghp turnover rate
When I first started this method my skimmer had to be cleaned twice a week. Now it is back to once a week.
stony_corals
New member
Wow, vodka dosing causing ich and popeye, off the thread a few days and look what happens?!?
Nice pics Peter!
The KZ test isn't that bad. Just to hijack for a moment. Dosing vodka and adding bacteria strains running Seachem salt, I have noticed no decline in K levels. My Zeo systems do have a measurable decline of K levels and need to be dosed using Seachem..... Hahn, be careful with K, some forms will kill you or explode
I'm going to disagree with Peter. I think vodka is absolutely safe if dosed correctly. If you rush it, or dose too much, you may have problems. Do the same with Kalk and you'll nuke your tank. I do not recommend this for beginners or people who don't understand what carbon dosing causes. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, nor creating a false sense of 'carbon dosing as a silver bullet' - each system is different and you need to know what's happening. Again, I could say the same about kalk......
Nice pics Peter!
The KZ test isn't that bad. Just to hijack for a moment. Dosing vodka and adding bacteria strains running Seachem salt, I have noticed no decline in K levels. My Zeo systems do have a measurable decline of K levels and need to be dosed using Seachem..... Hahn, be careful with K, some forms will kill you or explode
I'm going to disagree with Peter. I think vodka is absolutely safe if dosed correctly. If you rush it, or dose too much, you may have problems. Do the same with Kalk and you'll nuke your tank. I do not recommend this for beginners or people who don't understand what carbon dosing causes. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, nor creating a false sense of 'carbon dosing as a silver bullet' - each system is different and you need to know what's happening. Again, I could say the same about kalk......
Mark
Premium Member
I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.
I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater. I do not suggest this method to newbies though. In fact, some experienced reefers would be a bad fit as well, those types that always believe more is better. It takes very little to make a big impact.
For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste. Hence, a lot of european reefers I converse with use amino acids. They feel amino acids is no more that supplementing a nitrogen source. Nitrogenous waste without phosphates, that is.
A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:
1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!
2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.
The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.
I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater.
I do not suggest this method to newbies though. In fact, some experienced reefers would be a bad fit as well, those types that always believe more is better. It takes very little to make a big impact. For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste.
Hence, a lot of european reefers I converse with use amino acids. They feel amino acids is no more that supplementing a nitrogen source. Nitrogenous waste without phosphates, that is.A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:
1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!
2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.
The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.
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Potassium depletion should not be a problem with vodka dosing.
The zeolites in the other systems deplete K through ionic exchange.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm
The zeolites in the other systems deplete K through ionic exchange.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm
stony_corals
New member
Mark,
Interesting on point 1, I've noticed the same thing. Coralline growth has dramatically slowed in my systems. I don't think that I'm overdosing though. I have some NO3s on the LaMotte test kit, but it's between 0ppm and .25ppm. (I've upped feeding even more).
I agree with you on the aminos. I think corals can but I'm not certain of the efficiency of their uptake. This is why I've greatly increased feeding - I'm not smart enough to know how long the aminos are available to the corals..... dumping blender mesh daily though and taking the skimmer cup off, I know there's some N in there for a few hours.....
Thanks for posting your experience.
Interesting on point 1, I've noticed the same thing. Coralline growth has dramatically slowed in my systems. I don't think that I'm overdosing though. I have some NO3s on the LaMotte test kit, but it's between 0ppm and .25ppm. (I've upped feeding even more).
I agree with you on the aminos. I think corals can but I'm not certain of the efficiency of their uptake. This is why I've greatly increased feeding - I'm not smart enough to know how long the aminos are available to the corals..... dumping blender mesh daily though and taking the skimmer cup off, I know there's some N in there for a few hours.....
Thanks for posting your experience.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11361535#post11361535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark
I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.
I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater.
For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste.
A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:
1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!
2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.
The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.
Greetings All !
The answer lies somewhere else ...
For anyone keeping score, the following are clearly in play with regards to K+ depletion in systems utilizing zeolithic material(s):
1. Ionic Exchange with zeolithic materia (minimal impact);
2. Accumulation within coral host tissues (minimal impact);
3. Compensation of Synthetic Salt Mix Formula (potential moderate, indirect impact);
4. Assimilation and Export via Bacterioplankton (significant impact).
5. Protein skimmer performance (potential significant impact).
HTH
:thumbsup:
Agreed ... the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there.
This is a common misconception regarding systems utilizing zeolithic reactor vessels. While cation exchange does take place (... your point is well taken ...), the loss is minimal (Boomer has posted extensively on the rapid degradation curves involving cations vs. zeolites in saltwater in The Reef Chemistry Forum). Even Kallmeyer's own test (2002) using ZEOvit media showed minimal K accumulation in the media.
The answer lies somewhere else ...
For anyone keeping score, the following are clearly in play with regards to K+ depletion in systems utilizing zeolithic material(s):
1. Ionic Exchange with zeolithic materia (minimal impact);
2. Accumulation within coral host tissues (minimal impact);
3. Compensation of Synthetic Salt Mix Formula (potential moderate, indirect impact);
4. Assimilation and Export via Bacterioplankton (significant impact).
5. Protein skimmer performance (potential significant impact).
HTH
:thumbsup:
deklin
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11361535#post11361535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark
I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.
I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater.
For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste.
A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:
1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!
2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.
The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.
I would consider it a great success if I could get my coralline algae growth to slow or stop
At least in a BB tank I much prefer the look of minimal coralline to an abundance. And I wouldn't have to take my powerheads out and soak them in vinegar quite so often either!I assume that longterm lightening/bleaching of corals can be attributed to low nutrient tank syndrome and starving the corals? And that heavy feeding or possibly amino acid dosing will remedy the problem?
stony_corals
New member
Glad you chimed in on this Mesocosm! I'm curious about this comment of yours....
" ... the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there."
What is different? Many of us are dosing bacterial cultures running vodka.
" ... the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there."
What is different? Many of us are dosing bacterial cultures running vodka.
Greetings All !
For anyone interested, the link to the full article (pdf) is/was:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/13/2001
:thumbsup:
BTW, that was extracted from:
Amino Acids and SPS Corals
(Shawnts106, 11.23.2006)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=979299&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
The specific post is:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8630950#post8630950
HTH
:thumbsup:
Many thanks again to Chris Jury (McSaxmaster) for posting this one:
For anyone interested, the link to the full article (pdf) is/was:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/13/2001
:thumbsup:
BTW, that was extracted from:
Amino Acids and SPS Corals
(Shawnts106, 11.23.2006)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=979299&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
The specific post is:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8630950#post8630950
HTH
:thumbsup:
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