Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11362879#post11362879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
What is different?

My twisted little mind categorizes the so-called "probiotic" and "bacterioplankton" systems along three main pathways:
(1) Carbon Dosing (vodka or sugar dosing)
(2) Carbon Dosing & Bacterial Inoculation (Prodibio & PolypLabs)
(3) Carbon Dosing & Bacterial Inoculation, plus a culture ("reactor") vessel (Fauna Marin, ELOS, and Korallenzucht)

While all three pathways have much in common, there are some fundamental distinctions.

Pathway (1)
Concentrates solely on enriching bateria's growth media in order to drive nitrification & denitrification reactions. Bacterioplankton export results from the "normal", unaltered attachment/detachment patterns of biofilms, and, from enriched growth dynamics of free-living (suspended in the water column) bacteria.

Pathway (2)
Does what Pathway (1) does, and directly alters the behavior of the biofilm and free-living bacteria by changing the strain composition of the bacterial guild(s). This can be siginificant ... on several levels. Marine bacterial guilds which are disrupted by perpetual inoculations behave differently in comparison to guilds which as not so disrupted (... BTW, in natural ecosystems, such disruptions are not always happy events). Again, Bacterioplankton export results from the "normal", unaltered attachment/detachment patterns of biofilms, and, from enriched growth dynamics of free-living (suspended in the water column) bacteria.

Pathway (3)
Does what Pathways (1) & (2) do, and ... there is a bacteria culturing habitat (the "reactor" ... although I think of it as a "modified fluidized bed filter") component included. This component does two things (at least) that the other two pathways are incapable of: (A) increases mass transfer rate, i.e., more rapid nutrient uptake/assimilation by the biofilm of the component's media, and (B) makes additional bacterial biomass available for skimmer export if the media is agitated with adequate force.

This is not to say that my categorizations are definitive ... :lol:


Anyway, when I posted that, " .. the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there", I'm not saying that there is no bacterioplankton export going on. I'm saying that the bacterial export of Pathways (1) & (2) is passive, in comparison to Pathway (3). Indeed, I don't see the bacterial export "mechanism" of either Pathway (1) or (2) as being fundamentally different than a "standard" Berlin-Style system's bacterial export (... although a "quantity" difference would be expected).

I view Pathway (3) as aggressive. Indeed, for me the atypical zone of mass transfer, coupled with the artificial disruption of bacterial biomass (for export) is what makes the Pathway (3) configuration so intriguing.



Pardon me while I go take my reef addiction psych-meds ... :eek1:






JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[SDguy]

Excellent post...makes perfect sense.

Your comment: "... being fundamentally different than a "standard" Berlin-Style system's bacterial export (... although a "quantity" difference would be expected)."

I'm thinking that skimmer size and processing capability may make this difference more or less significant, no? And therefore affect the "efficiency" of the system in question?

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11363475#post11363475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
... I'm thinking that skimmer size and processing capability may make this difference more or less significant, no? And therefore affect the "efficiency" of the system in question?

Indeed ... :thumbsup:



JMO

 

[hahnmeister]

Just a side note... I was testing Iodine yesterday, and found that my iodide levels were good, but my iodate was 0!! Could this just be another Salifert 'oops' or is this possibly due to the everclear dosing? I hear its usually the other way around... iodide drops easily and iodate stays constant...

On a related note, I stopped dosing a couple days ago. I had added a new foxface, and it got cloudy eyes overnight. So I stopped dosing, and his eyes are clearing up right away. On new fish, this seems to be the biggest problem. I have to stop dosing, wait for a week, then restart after its acclimated.

My corals have all turned rather pastel recently too, so thats the other reason I have stopped. My orange whorling cap has started bleaching in a couple areas as well. Its odd.

Yet my valonia still exists...

Go figure.

My parameters are as follows:
Temp 79.5
Salinity: 1.0225
pH: 8.0
Alk: 8.2 dKH
Ca: 410 ppm
Mg: 1050 ppm
Phos: 0 (of course, this is a salifert test kit)
Nitrate: 0-0.2 (the lowest reading)
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
Iodide: .03-.05ppm
Iodate: 0???
Sr: 10ppm
My water on the yellow scale attached to the side of my tank has never been clearer... its a 4 out of 40 (not that that means anything since its relative to my tank only).

Anyways, thats with no carbon, no phosguard/ban. I run just the Korallin Ca reactor, the ATB 'Small' cone skimmer, and I WAS doing alchohol dosing until this last weekend. I think I stripped the system down too much, FWIW, using alchohol, so Im going to step off it for a while. My skimmer's output has easily halved compared to normal... just like that. So maybe Ill get some plankton (of some sort) back into the system to feed these montipora. Its all I can come up with... Ive stripped the water too clean for them to feed on anything. Maybe?

 

[Canarygirl]

Hi all,

like the person said, "interesting thread."

Hahn, have you been adding potassium chloride as your K+ source? I tried doing that once and had TN spots on my orange monti-cap and rainbow monti very similar to your photos. I had better luck using the ionically balanced K+ supplements. Did you ever get a K+ test kit? It would be interesting to see what your levels are.

I am a zeo user--full blown system--but have only been at it for 8-9 weeks. I've had some results but some problems.

Results: some brown corals are coloring up nicely (not others). Best success is an LE Ultimate blue that is finallly turning blue. Noticed a big growth spurt overall.

Problems: I had some basal STN each time my alk went out of NSW ranges. It corrected itself after I'd correct the alk parameter. My biggest problem at the moment is an algae bloom of various kinds all over my tank (bryopsis, a bit of HA, cyano, diatoms, too much biofilm, a little valonia, and the worst is turf algae on my rocks.) All of this algae is considerably worse than before I started using zeovit.

I think that the importance of a powerful skimmer may be understated in zeoville. I have a BM200 but it is second generation and doesn't work well consistently. When it's not working well I can scrape off a huge pane of biofilm and see no skimmate production 4 hours later. Not a good thing. So this is my answer to the person who asked early in this thread, "what happens if you don't skim out the bacs?"

The other contribution to my algae problem is related to what mesocosm said, that you can increase bacterial export in method #3 "if the media is agitated with adequate force." My zeoreactor is also temperamental and I can't always pump it hard enough (or else it jams). So I've been going easy with it...I think I'm not getting the mulm out and this is one more way that I'm not exporting bacteria.

I don't want to give up on it but I have to fix this problem as the algae bloom is NOT what I wanted to achieve!

 

[hahnmeister]

I have not started the K dosing yet, no. I was using Fauna-Marin's Ultra-Organic in the past, but that was a while ago.

Yes, I think there are some parallels between the zeo/ultralith systems and vodka methods.

 

[stony_corals]

Sorry to see the TN on the cap, is that the only one? Man, that valonia is out of hand... Your mag is also really low. (which Sr test kit did you use?) Are you dosing any aminos? How heavy are you feeding? (Subjective, I know).

 

[hahnmeister]

Sr kit is Salifert.

Im not dosing aminos, no. I feed rather heavy... spectrum in the morning for fish, then Rods Reef in the evening for everything, and then either some DT's phyto or KENT phyto when the lights go off for the corals to munch on.

Yeaah, my MG is a little low. Not totally bad, but low. Im bringing it up now.

Im considering trying Zeovit/Ultralith (not so much Prodobio though) as an alternative or more comprehensive solution than alchohol. When I look at all the other things I use anyways, adding Zeo-rocks, and a few other bottles isnt really all that much to consider. Its not that much different than me dosing phytoplex, using Kent trace elements, buying/dosing everclear, and using phosban/guard, etc... only I think KZ has put more thought into the 'total system'.

 

[stony_corals]

Yes, I've seen you 'over there' hahn. It's really not, I hate to get ot, but anyone who says that running zeo is tedious, probably shouldn't have a reef. It takes like 1 minute daily (depending on how hard/often you pump the rocks)....

I think mesos comment about the benefit of the reactor is quite interesting. I guess I haven't thought about that until know. You can see the mulm, and there is a feeding response.....

 

[dvanacker]

Not too turn this into a zeo thread but sugar or voda dosing is WAY cheaper then zeo.

If zeo was'nt so expensive I would think about it.

 

[Canarygirl]

I didn't mean to turn it into a Zeo thread either I am mostly just interested in the parallels that exist among the alternate C dosing methods. Like, "are near NSW parameters really needed, or not? Potassium levels? Signs of overdose?" etc. I wonder if some things might be Zeo artifacts unrelated to C dosing....

here's one that interests me right now...with Zeo they say that after it depletes the N and P in your water, it will start to leach those substances out of your live rock and sand, and you may have a bloom of nuisance algae when that happens. So, I want to know why I don't read of this occurring with vodka dosing? I haven't read of anyone using vodka getting an algae bloom from "sequestered nutrients leaching out." Instead I read people saying that their algae turns white and dies after a period of days.

Is that true?

 

[MonkeyKeeper911]

whats the standard dosage per gallon of vodka and sugar its not really clear cut 2 me

 

[mbbuna]

[welcome]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11122835#post11122835

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11123804#post11123804

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11372307#post11372307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvanacker
Not too turn this into a zeo thread but sugar or vodka dosing is WAY cheaper then zeo.

If zeo was'nt so expensive I would think about it.

While I'm not commenting on the absolute price, the differences in price are explained quite well when you consider what mesocosm pointed out in his last post. Flat out, the more all-encompassing the system, the more it will cost...

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11372428#post11372428 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl
I didn't mean to turn it into a Zeo thread either I am mostly just interested in the parallels that exist among the alternate C dosing methods. Like, "are near NSW parameters really needed, or not? Potassium levels? Signs of overdose?" etc. I wonder if some things might be Zeo artifacts unrelated to C dosing....

I believe it was mcsaxmaster (sp?) that pointed out in another thread that simply adding higher levels of alk (and ca?) to a coral in NSW increases calcification (I'm paraphrasing here, but I believe this was the idea) suggesting that issues such as tissue recession/loss are due to something other than/or in addition to, higher than NSW levels when using these systems...

 

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11372428#post11372428 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl


here's one that interests me right now...with Zeo they say that after it depletes the N and P in your water, it will start to leach those substances out of your live rock and sand, and you may have a bloom of nuisance algae when that happens. So, I want to know why I don't read of this occurring with vodka dosing? I haven't read of anyone using vodka getting an algae bloom from "sequestered nutrients leaching out." Instead I read people saying that their algae turns white and dies after a period of days.

Is that true?

it occurs in any low nutrient system when say po4 is lower in the water, than it is in the LR. it then leaches out. this why many BB reefers cook their rock...to prevent that.

 

[Canarygirl]

it occurs in any low nutrient system when say po4 is lower in the water, than it is in the LR. it then leaches out. this why many BB reefers cook their rock...to prevent that.

huh...I get it. Thanks, F&E

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11376154#post11376154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
While I'm not commenting on the absolute price, the differences in price are explained quite well when you consider what mesocosm pointed out in his last post. Flat out, the more all-encompassing the system, the more it will cost...

That is true... ethanol dosing seems to be 1/2 of what needs to happen. That being said, it looks like Ultralith is exactly the same as Zeo, but about 30% less. Maybe some of the 'specialty' products vary between systems, but the core system seems the same. Quality may vary though, who knows. I think I just have to pick one and try it.

The thing that gets me is that Im sure there already exists a US parallel to the Zeo/Ultralith or even Prodobio systems. I was looking at old bottles of KENT products I have on the shelf (when I was a noob, I bought every KENT bottled suppliment around and still have them all sitting around) Take for instance, the Ultralth 'Ultra Organic' suppliment... Iron, Potassium, Iodide, and other things I cant remember (the bottle is downstairs if I really want to check). Well, look at KENT Coral-Vite or Essential Elements... they contain Iron, Mg, Molybdenum, Manganese, Potassium. One of the critical components of Zeo is the 'amino acids' and 'vitamins'... look at KENT Coral Accel, it has crude protein, crude fat, crude fiber, iodine, asorbic acid, and vitamin A. Heck, Coral-Vite has B-1, B-6, B-12, Vitamin A, Asorbic acid as well as what I mentioned before.

Some of the products that prodobio sports are similar to this:
www.microbelift.com ,or one of the many other 'cycle' style bacterial suppliments that companies like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals offers (Stress Zyme: a biological filtration booster).

My tank was running ethanol until the point I think I stripped some elements out 100%. My iodate level is what got me the most... 0? If thats not a false reading on Salifert's behalf. But here is something funny... those corals I was concerned with because they looked faded and that whorling cap that was bleaching in spots... well, I added a bunch of Tech-I that I had laying around to boost Iodine, and then started dumping in those KENT chemicals I had laying around. Coral Accel, Essential Elements, Strontium/Moly, Coral-Vite, etc...

Yesterday I noticed something in the evening... a few of my corals that were doing the 'pastel thing' were dark again!

I think the real value of a 'system' like Zeo or Ultralith is in the fact that they have a researched 'method' and have a system. KENT, or one of the other major US names that makes 'suppliments' just doesnt have a system really... not in the same respect as Zeo. They COULD, and it might HELP THEM GREATLY as well as the consumer so they know what to buy.... but they dont. I cant tell you how many times I have heard some n00b talk about how the LFS guy said that their corals arent coloring in well or dying because their calcium/alkalinity was low, and so they sold them 'Essential Elements' to correct the problem...lol. Im sure KENT or someone like them could come up with what the Zeo-rocks are (heck, we do have mineral/miracle mud... I wonder how similar they are in effect), and make a $50 phosban reactor that has a stirring mechanism on it to stir zeolites... (or just use a phos reactor, and simply pick it up and shake the whole thing once a day rather than use the 'plunger')

Im not saying they are all the same quality, or that one poduct equals another 100%... the amounts might be off in comparison. But I just find it funny that these 'ultra expensive' systems may already have a low-price counterpart. I can tell you one thing... rather than dose some fancy product for potassium, I can just go to the lab supply and pick up pure potassium, potassium iodide, and potassium chloride and have my own fun for cheap.

So for me, I see the value. If I was to suggest to a noob what suppliments to look into, I would rather tell them to try a zeo or ultralith system that is spelled out for them rather than 'try some KENT products and see what works for you' or 'you need a phosban reactor'. To me, it just makes sense to invest the money in something that is a complete system with instructions, support, and guides rather than waste money on chemicals that you may or may not need. If I add up all the KENT bottles I have, Im sure its over $200 in chromaplex, zooplex, phytoplex, microvert food, Tech-I, Tech-M, Strontium, Essential Elements, Coral Accel, Coral-Vite, etc. etc. Or, I could pick up a liter of zeolith stones, and the other 3 'basic 4' for the the same if not less in a package and be on my way... you know?

I was looking at the Prodobio in the new MD catalog last night... dont think Ill bother with that though. Unless its a new tank, the only things I would use are the 5 things included in the 'Biokit Reef' (DIGEST, BIOPTIM, REEF BOOSTER, and STRONTI+ and IODI+). Of those, I bet the Digest is alot like one of the 'biological cleaning' products already out there in a bottle like Stress Zyme, Bioptim is similar to vodka dosing, and booster is just like Coral-Accel, Coral-Vite, or Essential Elements. And Stronti and Iodi? I think I can suppliment those w/o needing a fancy vial to do so... they are just basic elements after all. KENT Strontium&Molybdenum anyone? Tech-I/Super Iodine anyone? Heck, pure potassium iodide would do it just as well.

I like the idea of a reactor that cultivates bacterial plankton and such though... as long as it doesnt turn my corals pastel...lol.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11376176#post11376176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I believe it was mcsaxmaster (sp?) that pointed out in another thread that simply adding higher levels of alk (and ca?) to a coral in NSW increases calcification (I'm paraphrasing here, but I believe this was the idea) suggesting that issues such as tissue recession/loss are due to something other than/or in addition to, higher than NSW levels when using these systems...

That's what I've read out of things too.

It's funny, as if you go back enough years ... running very high Alk levels was quite popular. Then came Ca obsession. Now it's `no higher than NSW' obsession.

What I find is odd, that without running major C-dosing, higher-than-NSW levels or variance-over-time-of-levels do not show these problems. IMO, this makes me pin the problems more on the dosing-systems than the levels; esp. when I've run my tank for years at elevated Alk without tip-burn and other recessions.

JMO, though

 

[hahnmeister]

I think running higher than normal Alk levels as a goal was because there werent as many Ca reactors or Kalk reactors then. So if you were manually dosing, its better to raise it to 10-12, and so when it goes down between doses, it only goes down to 8-9. 10-12 isnt 'deadly' or anything, and 8-9 is right on. If you manually dose, and you get it only up to 8 every day, you could dip down to 5 or 6 in between, and this is much worse for corals.

Granted, just getting a reactor and keeping the levels constant is the best, and then your goal can be more 'natural' because it can be kept at that level. With manual dosing, your alkalinity will vary.